EGW, Australia & Womens Ordination

[Tom Wetmore]

John:

The quotation that you cite to me was made by Green Cocha, as I posted. It was not made by me. I posted it. But, I did not make the statement.

I wonder if other citations that you post have the same degree of accuracy as what you said about me.

Gregory Matthews

...I have often wondered the same thing...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Is a Pastor first a deaconess (or deacon)? Just been wondering about that.. The deaconesses in many churches now don't even do what the church manual says their duties are.

[Nan]

Is a Pastor first a deaconess (or deacon)? Just been wondering about that.. The deaconesses in many churches now don't even do what the church manual says their duties are.

I would say no or not necessarily in churches I know. Before they are ordained as pastors, some may be ordained and act as elders in the local church.

(Many years ago I was ordained an elder in my local church without having ever been a deaconess, that was just

the way things worked out.)

[Woody]

Is a Pastor first a deaconess (or deacon)? Just been wondering about that.. The deaconesses in many churches now don't even do what the church manual says their duties are.

I think ... but could be wrong ... that most pastors are first ordained as an elder. Then later ... they might be ordained as a pastor. I am an ordained as an elder ... but was never a deacon nor have I been ordained as a pastor although I served as one.

[Gregory Matthews]

Woody said:

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think ... but could be wrong ... that most pastors are first ordained as an elder. Then later ... they might be ordained as a pastor. I am an ordained as an elder ... but was never a deacon nor have I been ordained as a pastor although I served as one.

His statement is accurate in regard to the SDA denomination. It is not accurate in regard to some other denominations.

NOTE: In the Roman Catholic church, a Deacon is clergy (and will likely wear the clerical color that the priest wears), but is not a priest.

[John317]

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Tom Wetmore: If she gave it broad meaning, why do you give it such a narrow meaning?

"Pastor" didn't have the narrow meaning for Ellen White that it has for most people today. See William Fagal's "Ellen White and the Role of Women In the Church," pp. 6-9.

Do you believe the following is a narrow meaning? If you do, please explain.

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Ellen White used the term "pastoral" and "pastor" in a fairly wide sense. She often used it, for instance, in the sense of "feeding the flock." Not only the minister did that, but pastor's wives and other women in the church. Some ministers weren't good pastors. Some ministers were good pastors, in which case they would be both pastor and minister. At the same time not all pastors are ordained ministers. See Manuscript Release 763, pp. 5-6; MR 761, page 10; GW (1948), page 337.

She wrote, "... workers should be appointed as needed, who will act as pastors to the flock..." 5 T 723

[Tom Wetmore]

Again, the question was why do you give it such a narrow meaning different from EGW?

I really do not think there is any rational basis to suppose the meaning of the word "pastor" has changed all that much over the years.

The present dictionary meaning is "1. a minister or priest in charge of a church. 2. a person having spiritual care of a number of persons."

According to the etymology of the word the meaning, "a spiritual overseer; especially a clergyman serving a local church or parish" dates back to the 14th Century.

Since it should be readily apparent that the essential meaning of the word hasn't really changed in 7 centuries, why would EGW's 19th Century usage be any different from our present 21st Century usage of the word?

When EGW said, "It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God" why would she have invented her own novel and different meaning for an ordinary, unambiguous word in common English usage unchanged for centuries?

And pastor and minister are, and were in EGW's day, synonyms.

[Woody]

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And pastor and minister are, and were in EGW's day, synonyms.

as was the term 'messenger' ... along with pastor and minister.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: Aren't we all in agreement that Ellen White was never ordained?

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Gregory Matthews: I shake my head at this question.

I asked the question because there seemed to be some confusion in the minds of some posters over whether Ellen White was ordained by the church or not. I think the confusion had more to do with semantics, or the language used to express the idea, than with the idea itself.

My question was, aren't we all in agreement that Ellen White was never ordained in the sense that she meant it when she indicated on the "Biographical Information Blank" that she'd never been ordained.

We should have no confusion over what is meant by saying, "Ellen White was never ordained," especially when a writer repeatedly states that Ellen White was indeed called and ordained by God.

Ellen White herself indicated that she had never been ordained, and when she said this, she was not denying she had been ordained of God. I'm certain that when she indicated she had never been ordained, no one was confused by what she meant.

We're in complete agreement that she was never ordained in this way.

Please notice what was said earlier, in post# 353391, for instance:

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No one is disputing that she was called and ordained of God.

The question has to do with the ordination of women by the church. Elders, church pastors, etc., and women working in certain ministries, are ordained in a different way than Ellen White was ordained. They are ordained in a church ceremony, by the laying on of human hands. When Ellen White indicated she had never been ordained, she was not referring to the call of Christ to be His special messenger. Why did she say she hadn't been ordained? Because she never was ordained. By saying this, she wasn't denying that God had called her to her prophetic ministry. This is exactly what William Fagal of the E.G. White Estate says in "Ellen White and the Role of Women in the Church," p. 11. Check it out; it's very clearly written and thorough.

She herself said, "In the city of Portland the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth."--RH, May 18, 1911.{DG 252.5}

But that is not why the church issued her the credential. She was "voted ministerial credentials" by the Michigan conference in 1872, but they were issued in the names of "James White and Mrs. E.G.White," not pastor or elder White, but merely "Mrs. White." Then, about 3 years after the death of James White, the GC also voted Sister White a ministerial credential. This was the first time she was issued a credential individually or separately. I think it's very significant that Ellen White was first issued a Credential by the General Conference after the death of her husband. Again, it was the first Credential issued to Ellen White separately, or individually. The date was 1884, exactly 30 years after she had received her first vision.

Since Ellen White was ordained by God long before she was issued any credential, we may reasonably conclude that she didn't need the credential as proof that she was ordained by God. She had the credential for practical purposes, not theological ones. The main, practical reason was that she needed to be reimbursed for traveling expenses by the conferences she visited. The church long before had recognized she'd been ordained by God as His prophet, or special messenger, but that wasn't the reason they voted her a ministerial credential.

I hope this clears things up. If it doesn't, please feel free to ask any questions or make any statements that you believe will help clarify the topic for us. I appreciate all your help, Greg.

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Gregory Matthews: No, we are not all agreed. This is a central point of disagreement.

My question was, aren't we all agreed that she was not ordained by the church-- i.e., by men's hands?

Ellen White had no problem answering this question by marking it, NO-- signifying that she had NEVER been ordained. It was no cause for confusion.

I've plainly stated that the question is not whether Ellen White was ordained by God but whether she was ordained by the church, or by human hands.

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Gregory Matthews: What all informed people agree upon is that EGW was not ordained by laying on of hands.

I agree with you here. However, there are some who have said that she was ordained by the church. And some do not see any significance in the fact that Ellen White was issued the credential without being ordained by the church.

Ellen White was "voted a credential," which is different from being ordained. That Ellen White did not consider the issuance of a credential the same as being "ordained" is proven by the fact that when ask if had been "ordained," she indicated that she had never been ordained. She gave a similar response when asked if she had remarried." In both place she indicated by the placing of an "X" that she had never remarried and never been "ordained." (Please see William Fagal's "Ellen White and the Role of Women in the Church," p. 11.)

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Gregory Matthews: The historical records show that the early denominational leaders beleived that EGW was ordained by God and that is why she was issued the credentials of an ordained SDA minsiter.

I agree the historical records show she was voted a credential but I disagree over the reason for that issuance.

If the reason they issued her the credentials was that she had been ordained by God, why did they wait so long to vote her a credential?

Yes, Ellen White was indeed ordained by God. As I've said repeatedly, there is no disputing that she was ordained by God. Her ordination by God has never been a point of dispute at any time in the discussion.

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Gregory Matthews: If you need to ask the question, it is no wonder that this discussion has gone in the direction that it has gone.

Many thanks for your help, Gregory. I hope the issue of Ellen White's ordination is no longer a problem or a source of frustration.

I ask you to forgive any mistakes I've made in this discussion, particularly in attributing to you something that was said by someone named Green Cochoa. By the way, I went back and corrected that error. I'm trying the best I can and will keeping trying, God willing.

Let's all pray for our church and for all of our leaders. We live in very serious times when the devil is going about as a roaring lion seeking for anyone to devour because he knows his time is short.

[John317]

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John317:

Here's a statement found in the folder pertaining to Ellen White's views of Ordination, entitled, "Exhibits Relating to the Ordination of Women From the Lifetime and Experience of Ellen G. White:"

"However, she was never ordained by human hands, nor did she ever use the functions usually associated with the ministerial office. She never performed a wedding, organized a church, or conducted a baptism."

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Gregory Matthews: In other comments John has made a big point of the fact that EGW never performed certain functions of a local pastor.

I am only repeating what has been stated by Arthur White and by others working at the Ellen G. White Estate. It has relevance for the issue of whether women ought to be ordained to the gospel ministry because some people use Ellen White's ordination as evidence that Ellen White supported the ordination of women to be church pastors and elders.

Why do you think that immediately after mentioning that Ellen White was voted ministerial credentials, the Ellen White Estate makes the observation that Ellen White was "never ordained by human hands, nor did she ever use the functions usually associated with the ministerial office. She never performed a wedding, organized a church, or conducted a baptism" ? Do you think that the Estate is here merely pointing out a historical curiosity completely irrelevant to anything of either a practical or theological nature?

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Gregory Matthews: What John does not tell us is that in earlier days the SDA church ordained many men who never performed those same functions of a local pastor. That it true for A. L. White, the grandson of EGW. In the first half of the 1900s it was true for a large number of men.

Thanks, Gregory, for bringing up this interesting point about ordained men who never conducted baptisms, performed weddings or organized a church.

Are you saying that these "large numbers of men," such as Arthur White, could not have performed a wedding even if they had wanted to do so? Or that they simply never did those things? Were they prohibited from establishing churches?

Would you please share with us any conclusions in regard to Women's Ordination that you've arrived at on the basis of these historical facts?

[John317]

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Woody: Our early pioneers were not ordained by our church. They just got about doing the work of God. For instance ... the case of James White. He was never ordained by our church. Yet, he held the credentials of an ordained minister of our church and well represented our church as a founder.

I think this brings up three important points:

1) James White was an ordained Christian minister before the organization of the SDA church. According to the SDA Encyclopedia, he was ordained in 1847. Therefore, there was really no need for him to be re-ordained when the church he himself helped organize was established. By that time, James White had already been an ordained minister of the gospel for over 15 years.

2) After our church was organized, many of our early pioneer ministers were ordained by the church if they hadn't ever been ordained previously. There was an organization. WE don't want to give the impression that there were no requirments for serving as the minister of a church or of being church elders.

3) What you say also shows that we can't use everything our pioneers said or practiced as the grounds for our own beliefs or practices. They were an immature church, though full of love and the Spirit, and they hadn't come to a clear view of what the Bible taught on many subjects. They didn't have a very highly develped understanding of Ecclesiology. They still had a great deal to learn, just as we do today, and they were undergoing changes in doctrine and church government.

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WOODY: Ellen White held the credentials of an ordained minister. Just because the church didn't ordain her by the laying on of hands ... does not mean that she was not ordained.

Yes, we're in complete agreement that she was ordained by God, but she was never ordained by the church. In the case of Ellen White, it's a very significant difference. Her work and ministry didn't depend on the church's ordaining her or giving her authority or her position.

[John317]

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Neil D: we can show that Pheobe was a ministering deconess...we just don't know if there was a ordination ceremony performed on her.

I agree that Phoebe was probably a deaconess, although many scholars don't believe it was a formal position at that time in the early church. More than likely the word diakonos as used in Romans 16: 1 refers to servant in a general sense, which is how it is frequently translated, and the way it is understood in the SDA Bible Commentary.

But that is far different from what Tom Wetmore has argued, that Phoebe was Paul's overseer, or supervisor. He would make Paul say, "Help Phoebe because she has been made the overseer of many, including of me." It is far more likely, and agrees more with the language, for Paul to have said, "Help Pboebe because she has been a helper (protector) to many, including me." This is the way dozens of translations read; whereas only one translation, by Helen Montgomery, reads the way Tom suggests. Out of 65 translations, I would go with the 64 and not with the single one that is not consistent with Paul's theology or with his way of speaking.

Another important point is that the word, prostatis, a feminie noun, never means "overseer" in any Greek writing. (In fact, if Paul had intended to say "overseer," there was a word he could have used, episkopos, as he did in Acts 20: 28. He merely would have had to use a feminine ending, episkopee, a word which signifcantly does not occur anywhere in either the NT or in early Christian literature.) The masculine form of the word prostatees sometimes means "leader," but there is no instance where the feminine word which Paul actually uses refers to a leader. All Greek-English lexicons define it as "protectress, patroness, helper." Gingrich's lexicon translates it as, "she has been of great assistence to many, including myself Rom 16: 2." See also any good, standard Bible translation, such as NKJV, NASB, RSV, NRSV, ESV.

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Neil D: We have an unknown person, who is likely to be a woman, who was a highly regarded Apostle.

OK, we're in agreement that there's no certainty whether this person name Iounian was a woman or a man. There are many--(I know of at least seven)--good translations that refer to both of these individuals as men. This is a legitimate translation of the words, hoitines eisin episemoi tois apostolois [these men are of excellent reputation among the apostles].

Very few Bible scholars believe Phoebe was a highly regarded apostle, because the evidence for that viewpoint is weak at best.

Consider a number of problems with this view:

1) As stated before, we can't even be certain it's a woman. Equally good evidence can be cited for either view.

2) The translation itself is problematic, since the phrase may be translated in various ways, as, for instance, "held in high esteem among the apostles," or "highly thought of by the apostles," or "notable among the apostles." All of those translations are quite acceptable and appear in very reputable versions of the NT.

3) There's also the question of the kind of apostle that's being referred to. It should be kept in mind that the NT speaks of general apostles and technical apostles. Not all use of the word, apostle [apostolos], in the NT signifies the same thing. Some are missionaries/messengers and others are apostles in the same sense as the 12, such as Peter, Paul and James. So the question here would be, is Iounion (Junia or Junias) an apostle in the same sense as Paul or in the sense of being a missionary or messenger? (See John 13: 16; Phil. 2: 25; 2 Cor. 8: 23).

Therefore, in order to determine whether Romans 16: 7 supports women being ordained to the office of the minister of a church, it is necessary to be certain of the answers to all three of those questions: (1)Is it a woman? (2)Is she one of the apostles rather than known by the apostles? (3) Is she an apostle in the same sense that Paul was an apostle?

To date the scholarly world doesn't know the answers to those questions, although at this time, most scholars believe it's more likely Iounian was "Junia" (female) than "Junias" (male). Having said that, however, it should be noted that even today there continue to be published new translations of Romans which show Iounion to be a man.

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Neil D: Apostle is also known as "one who is sent"..a messenger if you will. Not "a man who was sent", but rather "ONE who is sent".

It's true the word apostolos refers to "sending out." The cognate word, ploion, in the writings of Homer, means a ship ready for departure. See Is. 18: 2 in the Septuagint. Christ was an apostle in this sense of being one sent out. Heb. 3: 1.

I agree that a woman can also be a messenger, or one sent out. Ellen White was certainly a messenger of God, but she was not sent out by the church as ministers and elders are. She was ordained by God as Christ's special messenger, which puts her in a seperate category from women who are appointed and ordained by the church.

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Neil D: So far, among the duties of a minister or an apostle, there is nothing precluding women to the office.

The main responsbility of the bishop, the minister, the pastor/teacher or elders of the church is to rule, manage, or govern, the congretations. "Let the elders rule well..." This work is never assigned in the NT to the women in the church. There is a distinction that you continue to ignore or forget. Study the requirements and duties of the elders as compared to those of the deacons. See Acts 20: 28; 1 Tim 3: 2-5; 5: 17; ; Eph. 4: 11; Titus 1: 6-9; 1 Peter 5: 2-5.

There are no longer apostles in the church in the sense in which that word was used in the NT.

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Neil D: Just the recognition from the Church of God's calling....something in which the Church is not willing to do...recognise God's working among us...

Believers don't have to be made the pastor/minister or elder of the congregations in order for them to do God's work or for the church to recognize God's working among us. I think that's a mistaken way of looking at the work. Anyone can do the work that God has given them to do without having to be placed in the positions of the minister or elders. The NT shows many different kinds of ministries that women can do. Ellen White speaks of these also. I think it's a mistake to suggest that unless women are able to serve as the minister or as an elder, they are being denied the ability to work for God.

[Woody]

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Ellen White was "voted a credential," which is different from being ordained. That Ellen White did not consider the issuance of a credential the same as being "ordained" is proven by the fact that when ask if had been "ordained," she indicated that she had never been ordained. She gave a similar response when asked if she had remarried." In both place she indicated by the placing of an "X" that she had never remarried and never been "ordained." (Please see William Fagal's "Ellen White and the Role of Women in the Church," p. 11.)

What is failed to be mentioned ... is that Ellen White was issued the credentials of an 'ordained' minister. And 7 out of 8 times the record clearly shows she accepted the credentials without any crossing out of the word 'ordained'.

And it is an incorrect statement to state that SHE crossed the word out even once. For we have no witnesses who will verify it. There is no documentation that SHE did it. It's simply speculation.

[Woody]

The issue of women being excluded in spiritual matters such as speaking in church, being leaders of the church and being ordained as such ... is an issue of :

Are we going to follow old pagan ideas and traditions regarding women ... ?

Are we going to impose gender restriction on spiritual gifts?

Or are we going to follow Biblical perspectives of all being called to the ministry as equal partners where there is no male and no female ... no Greek and no Jew. We are all equal in His sight.

????? These are the serious questions.

[Woody]

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When Ellen White indicated she had never been ordained, she was not referring to the call of Christ to be His special messenger.

The Bible and the SOP clearly indicate that pastors and messengers are the same. The pastors in Ellen White's time were called messengers.

[Woody]

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After our church was organized, many of our early pioneer ministers were ordained by the church if they hadn't ever been ordained previously.

I would be very interested in seeing some documentation that our early pioneer ministers were actually ordained by our church if they hadn't been ordained by another church. Do you have such documentation John317 ?

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Yes, we're in complete agreement that she was ordained by God, but she was never ordained by the church. In the case of Ellen White, it's a very significant difference. Her work and ministry didn't depend on the church's ordaining her or giving her authority or her position.

Yes. I agree. And this is exactly my point. Even though she was a messenger/pastor/minister who was ordained by God ... the ordaination by the church was not of importance. Neither should it be for men. This is what was demonstrated. We are just slow in recognizing that women also are called by God for this purpose. We are stuck in tradition. EGW recognized this and did not push for ordination because she knew it was not the right time. This is the same position of our General Conference President Paulsen. And I support it. I would not want to impose this cultural issue on any culture.

[Woody]

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James White was an ordained Christian minister before the organization of the SDA church. According to the SDA Encyclopedia, he was ordained in 1847. Therefore, there was really no need for him to be re-ordained when the church he himself helped organize was established. By that time, James White had already been an ordained minister of the gospel for over 15 years.

This brings up an interesting issue:

Our church has stated that if you are baptized by immersion in another Christian Church ... that when you come to the Seventh day Adventist Church ... you need to be re-baptized.

But it is okay if you are ordained as a pastor in another church and come to this church ... you can just go right on preaching?

Seems incongruent to me.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

No they don't. Messengers from God in the Bible were prophets, not pastors.

[Woody]

Ellen White referred to the pastors of her time as 'messengers'. I can give you lots of references for this if you PM me. I believe I've posted these before.

Malachi 2:7 "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he [is] the messenger of the LORD of hosts."

And the SDA Bible Commentary on this verse states:

"The priest who rightly carried on his appointed work was as truly a "messenger" of God as was the prophet (see on Haggai 1:13). 4BC 1128

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

No, that's okay. These are just saying that the priest can be referred to as a messenger.

A priest is not a pastor.

It is interesting to me that most, if not all, of the diatribe of this topic is by men. Doesn't anyone want to know what women think about it?

[Woody]

We're listening ....

[John317]

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rudywoofs: It is interesting to me that most, if not all, of the diatribe of this topic is by men. Doesn't anyone want to know what women think about it?

Anyone's welcome, Pam. Please say what's on your mind.

[Woody]

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rudywoofs: It is interesting to me that most, if not all, of the diatribe of this topic is by men. Doesn't anyone want to know what women think about it?

Anyone's welcome, Pam. Please say what's on your mind.

Yes, I do wish she would. I've been holding off posting on this thread till she does. I wanted to give her a chance to be heard.

[John317]

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Woody: Yes, I do wish she would. I've been holding off posting on this thread till she does. I wanted to give her a chance to be heard.

I think we should promise her that we won't let anyone attack her no matter what she says. I'll delete any posts that do. I'm serious. Everyone stay off Pam. If anyone wants to attack someone, attack me. But leave Pam alone on this thread.

[Gregory Matthews]

Woody said:

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Our church has stated that if you are baptized by immersion in another Christian Church ... that when you come to the Seventh day Adventist Church ... you need to be re-baptized.

No. It is optional and up to the individual.