EGW, Australia & Womens Ordination

[Johann]

If she gave it broad meaning, why do you give it such a narrow meaning?

[debbym]

I am sure this issue was just as hot in the early days as it is now, and i would imagine egw would not wish to engage in this fight, she had a higher path to walk on.

Her example speaks volumes, In preaching, teaching, writing, serving.

if she ever needed to, i have no doubt she would have baptized someone. women have a way of getting done whatever needs to be done, from diapers to taxes, birthing and burying, to preaching and praying.

Some men seem to be a bit more particular, somethings they wont do, and other things no one else gets to do it but them. God is not a respecter of persons.

Man and woman identity is God born. we can't destroy that by doing various tasks. It is an identity from within. Just ask someone who is transgendered.

[Neil D]

Man and woman identity is God born. we can't destroy that by doing various tasks. It is an identity from within. Just ask someone who is transgendered.

Do you have experience with transgendered people? I do not...I ask because their experience is different than mine...

[debbym]

yes i have limited experience with transgender. every individual who is trans has their individual journey, but i do not know of any that have come to this decision without suffering. eventually their is greater suffering remaining the birth gender, then the adopted gender. then they face the pain of a society that has all degrees of revulsion, hatred, and acceptance, and approval.

identity formation has steps, and changing identity also has steps. identity is within.

behavior does not define ones identity. you cannot act like something and be it. a transgender man who was a woman never escapes the reality they are transgender. That history of that change is included in their history and reality. it is not merely a set of behaviors it is a change in thinking.

so if a woman does certain tasks, external behaviors, she does not change her gender by doing different external behaviors. men need not fear that a woman in carrying out leadership is going to lose her gender.

the scripture says, As a man thinketh in his heart so is he.

i watched a video done in the Greater New York SDA Conference, a woman became a man, and lived as a man for many years, then changed back to her womanhood in her walk with God, it was a most wonderful story that glorified God. God was with this dear person every step of their experience.

[phkrause]

[Hair]

It is interesting to me that most, if not all, of the diatribe of this topic is by men. Doesn't anyone want to know what women think about it?

My wife is against WO just like I am. She's against it because I told her she was. She would tell you herself, but right, now I have her washing dishes, and then she has to make me a sandwich.

Seriously though, I know several women who disagree with WO... and I know several who are for it... same with the men folk. I have not noticed a unanimous or even majority decision by either. Our last pastor and his wife both were against it, I'm not sure of the new one.

[nuff sed]

Contrary to Woody's comments...It is my understanding that if you have EVER been baptized by immersion is is NOT necessary to do it again. You can join the church by Profession of Faith. Nuff Sed

[nuff sed]

Our church has stated that if you are baptized by immersion in another Christian Church ... that when you come to the Seventh day Adventist Church ... you need to be re-baptized

Not true. You come in under "Profession of Faith" Nuff Sed

[Hair]

'nuff sed is correct

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

It is interesting to me that most, if not all, of the diatribe of this topic is by men. Doesn't anyone want to know what women think about it?

My wife is against WO just like I am. She's against it because I told her she was. She would tell you herself, but right, now I have her washing dishes, and then she has to make me a sandwich.

Seriously though, I know several women who disagree with WO... and I know several who are for it... same with the men folk. I have not noticed a unanimous or even majority decision by either. Our last pastor and his wife both were against it, I'm not sure of the new one.

I have asked this before, but gotten little or no response from those opposed to WO. If you are opposed to WO, have you ever been a member of a church with a female pastor? Have you ever worked with a female pastor? How many female pastors do you know personally? Have you ever witnessed, experienced the fruit of the ministry of a female pastor?

[Hair]

Yes actually, I was involved with a whole group of people who quit a church that took on a woman pastor. I was not "IN" that church, but the crowd left and came to our church. They did not quit because they took a woman pastor. On the contrary, originally that is what the majority wanted. However, as time passed she as very unsuccessful and they described her as a dictator type. The church was in really bad shape, she finally moved on, they got a male pastor, and things are doing better. Several of the member have returned.

I do not like to use this example to support my view against WO because I truly believe that a female can be a successful pastor. There will be good and bad just like the guys. A female CAN preach when required.

Some of the best Biblical teachers and Biblical help I've every had has came from females. The best Christian that I've ever known was a lady who passed at 96 a few years ago. When I go visiting church members and such, I like to take a few ladies with me from church because they are so good a communicating with people. When I have a special prayer for something many times I'll choose a few ladies of the church to pray with me because of their strong Christian character. Women are awesome Christians and they do an awesome work for God. When I do seminars, I'll ALWAYS pull in at least three times as many females as males. Men seem to naturally have harder hearts, pride, whatever... I don't know.

I have absolutely nothing against females. I just can not make myself, or gather from the scriptures, that it is the role of a female to be the official recognized established ordained HEAD servant of a church. I feel that it is not natural for her intended purpose. I also think there are many things that are naturally intended for woman alone and men should stay out of it.

Maybe I will be accused of being a bad, evil, and wicked person, but I believe women and men are equal yet very different.

[Naomi]

I have asked this before, but gotten little or no response from those opposed to WO. If you are opposed to WO, have you ever been a member of a church with a female pastor? Have you ever worked with a female pastor? How many female pastors do you know personally? Have you ever witnessed, experienced the fruit of the ministry of a female pastor?

Yes & Yes....3

[Johann]

After I retired I was asked to be the pastor of a church where I had served several years earlier. The last pastor the church had was a woman who moved to another area. I knew there were some solid conservative members who might be critical of a female pastor.They had been converted.

- She was the best pastor we ever had, I was told, even though I was one of those previous pastors!

[Don777]

The example of Ellen White brings to question the need for the laying on of hands ... period.

(I think it far superior to be ordained by God rather than men. Especially the male species )

We assume that God ordains when humans ordain. As far as I remember, human ordination is the only form of ordination mentioned in Scripture, though it seemed right to the Spirit.

It is important that the one going out, the "apostle", remember the church people who met and "officially" sent him/her out.

There is another support which ignores human "sending", the role of the prophet. We have some people who are quite effective who have no human endorsement. Some will say, "I don't need any man to lay hands on me!"

[Gordon1]

I have absolutely nothing against females. I just can not make myself, or gather from the scriptures, that it is the role of a female to be the official recognized established ordained HEAD servant of a church. I feel that it is not natural for her intended purpose. I also think there are many things that are naturally intended for woman alone and men should stay out of it.

Maybe I will be accused of being a bad, evil, and wicked person, but I believe women and men are equal yet very different.

Well voiced Hair. One is often vilified for believing the scriptural record, and automatically assumed to be misogynist. One can imagine Jesus faced the same for selecting 12 twelve men. This was His golden opportunity to show that God's order had been changed.

Instead He confirmed that His Father is indeed a God of order.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

[

I have asked this before, but gotten little or no response from those opposed to WO. If you are opposed to WO, have you ever been a member of a church with a female pastor? Have you ever worked with a female pastor? How many female pastors do you know personally? Have you ever witnessed, experienced the fruit of the ministry of a female pastor?

I'm opposed to it, but only for my own personal view of who/what a pastor is. I don't wish to impose my views on anyone.

I've not been a member in a church where there has been a female pastor.

Not quite sure what is meant by "witnessed, experienced the fruit of the ministry of a female pastor".... is it different fruit from those of a male pastor?? what kind of fruit? how is ministry fruit 'experienced'?? (not trying to be sarcastic - I've always had a problem understanding Christianese.)

Yes, I have 3 long-time friends (over 40 years) who are well-known ordained pastors in the SDA church.

[Tom Wetmore]

Your question, Pam, is quite relevant. The fruit to which I refer is the fruit that is identified by Scripture and EGW and firmly echoed in the official policy of the General Conference. It is what is understood as the proof of a minsters call to ministry that qualifies the minster for ordination. Souls brought to Christ. So to witness that you would see for yourself the ministry of a woman pastor bringing new believers into the faith that except Christ as their personal Savior and are baptized. To have experienced it one would have been one of those brought into the faith as a result of the ministry of a women pastor.

All of my adult life (37 years) there has been a female pastor of the churches where I have been a member and/or regularly attend. My 3 children took baptismal Bible study and were baptized by a female pastor. I have witnessed countless people baptized by female pastors who brought them to Christ. I worked for a number of years with the female pastor in the small group ministries of our Church. And for nearly 30 years I have witnessed and worked at the General Conference where there have been a number of female pastors in leadership positions, more so now than ever.

In short, no, the fruit of their ministry is no different from those of any male pastor I have known and worked with throughout all my life. The only difference is that it is that the men are ordained as a recognition that their ministry bears the only fruit of ministry that counts.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

is that right? the only reason to ordain someone is if they have baptized someone? That seems really...odd. I know of people who were ordained before they ever baptized anyone...

wow.

ordination just took a deep nosedive south in my estimate of importance..

[Woody]

In order for a woman to be ordained - she needs to demonstrate fruit and that is through a baptism. This is true.

[Tom Wetmore]

is that right? the only reason to ordain someone is if they have baptized someone? That seems really...odd. I know of people who were ordained before they ever baptized anyone...

wow.

ordination just took a deep nosedive south in my estimate of importance..

That isn't what I said. It is not simply and only about baptism. It is about bringing souls to Christ. That is fundamentally what the role of the ministry is all about, spreading the gospel, evangelizing the world, leading people to accept Christ. If a pastor cannot show evidence of that, there remains uncertainty of whether he or she has truly been called by God to the ministry. To ordain is the church giving its recognition that it sees and accepts the evidence that the ministry bears fruit.

Baptism is simply the public act both from the individual's perspective and the pastor's perspective that the decision has been made. Traditionally the pastor who leads someone to Christ is the one to baptize them. It doesn't have to be, but it is viewed as a privilege to baptize those that are the fruit of ones own pastoral ministry. It is tangible evidence of their call to ministry to have baptized those they lead to Christ. It gives credit to their efforts.

It was a major step forward when women pastors were allowed to baptize those they had lead to Christ. Before that, they did the ministry and the ordained men did the baptism, effectively getting/taking the credit for the ministry of the women.

Of course there are other basic elements to qualification such as commitment, dedication, education and demonstrated understanding of and support of the teachings/doctrines of the Church and an exemplary life consistent with the standards of the church. But all of those elements without demonstrated ability to use all that to successfully bring souls to Christ are insufficient to show readiness for ordination.

[Don777]

On the Appreciating History thread, we have started a section on ordination. You will find there a few examples of "camp meeting" ordinations of newer ministers.

[Gordon1]

So should Jesus have been baptized by a woman?

[Tom Wetmore]

So should Jesus have been baptized by a woman?

Why?

[debbym]

Quote:

So should Jesus have been baptized by a woman?

i am speechless.

[CoAspen]

To quote someone....missing the point!