What is the Gospel?

[pnattmbtc]

p:Yes, I have an agenda, which is the same as that of Jesus Christ, which is the revelation of God.

R:That's part of the gospel, but the gospel is Christ assuming us into himself and thus saving humanity from the curse of the law.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

soooo, until we know what God is like-and find that attractive-we havent found the "gospel"?

the majority, including the pharisees, saw what God was like.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I don't think the Pharisees ever understood what God was like. When they started to get an inkling, and the Holy Spirit convicted them, they steeled their hearts against this conviction, and convinced themselves that God was not like Jesus Christ.

so they preferred the "god"-their picture of God-that was like themselves... (?) the picture they had developed and did not wish to question ?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Robert

quote=Richard Holbrook]“God's law is the transcript of His character. It embodies the principles of His kingdom.” COL 305 /quote]

Partially true. The Spirit of God's law is a transcript of His character.

The law from Sinai was made for mankind after the fall. It was given to turn sin into transgression. It was given to turn sin into guilt, but again it was given for men.

For example, the first four have to do with faith. God doesn't need to have faith in Himself so these can't apply to His character.

Most of the last six don't apply to God's character either. For example the 5th commandment doesn't apply because He has no mother or father.

Yes, the 6th commandment shows God's character for He does not kill or murder.

The 7th doesn't apply to God because He is neither male or female...He doesn't reproduce and therefore sexual temptation is an impossibility.

The 8th commandment doesn't apply to God because He created everything.

The 9th commandment applies to God's character because He never lies or deceives.

The 10th commandment does apply....God is not self-seeking...He does not covet. God is agape. Yes He accepts our worship, but at the same time He is our source of agape and He Himself is the servant of all. He lives to serve.

Okay, out of 10 commandments only 3 apply to His character. What then was EGW speaking of?

Robert; while it is true that God does not do what you mentioned above; it does not follow that these commandments do not somehow apply to His character - who He is. Infact; when viewed correctly, it is not "ten commandments" it is ten promises for today's believer.

Lets pick the tenth commandment for an example. You say it doesn't apply to God? The very fact that He does not covet shows His character. That's the whole point of it. The commandments were in existence before the OT, as God Himself is "from everlasting." To the one who loves Jesus...they will be able to keep His commandments; realize all ten promises in their life.

Amen O/A

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

i think some part of each of them found it attractive, but found their sinful nature-wants, or satans ways-more attractive...

i think too many of us have been burned by the legalism, could i say striving for obedience without knowing what God is like first? that when we hear "obedience", or similar words, we hear that mindset...

I agree with this. What is it that we think pleases God? This is really a critical question to ask. Our answer to this question says something about what we think God is like. The parable of the talents comes to mind.

our heart? that we fall in love with Him?

that would seem to take care of the "debate"... and set us all on the "right path"...

[pnattmbtc]

so they preferred the "god"-their picture of God-that was like themselves... (?) the picture they had developed and did not wish to question ?

[phkrause]

Pro 13:13-14 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded. The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

The Law of God is a reflection of Himself. As inspiration tells us, it is a transcript of His character.

“God's law is the transcript of His character. It embodies the principles of His kingdom.” COL 305

Through a meditation of the commandments of God we are brought into contact with the character of God. This is why David said:

Psa 1:1-3 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

Psa 119:97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

How could David love the Law of God and make it His meditation when most people see the law as an instrument of legalism, condemnation and death? The Law is death to those who operate under the deception of the serpent’s lie of inherent life source – you shall not surely die. This lie causes people to try and keep the law from within themselves as a means of pleasing God rather than seeing the Law as a promise of what God will do in us when connected to Him.

Excellent post Richard, makes a lot of sense, and if the 10 C's were not around before Adam and Eve sinned than I would imagine that what Satan did in Heaven was not sin! Because there would not have been anything to condemn him for. Seems to me that the 10 C's reflect the character of God.

pk

[Robert]

Lets pick the tenth commandment for an example. You say it doesn't apply to God?

No, here's what I said: "The 10th commandment does apply"

[Robert]

Its not iniquity to get a good education

But it is iniquity if you use that knowledge to build your wealth.....

[Robert]

I think this is a limited way of looking at the Gospel. It seems to be focusing on solving a legal problem.

No...your theology is limited! Without God solving the legal problem nothing else would matter.....So what Christ did is everything. It is complete!

[Robert]

Under law isn't a question of nature, but of mind set.

I don't care about your character...you are still a sinner...you are still bent-to-self .... if not you can self-righteously exclaim that you are without sin. This, of course, would be a deception on your part. Who are you kidding?

[Robert]

if the 10 C's were not around before Adam and Eve sinned than I would imagine that what Satan did in Heaven was not sin! Because there would not have been anything to condemn him for.

Where in the law does it call self-seeking transgression?

"Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven." [EGW]

It's the same in an auto race...or a spelling bee...or anything where self is at the center. It is all self-seeking...getting attention...being looked at as someone special while others are less. Winner and losers....

Before Lucifer developed his bent-to-self all heavenly beings didn't think of themselves, but those around them. No one lived for himself. Lucifer found this too restrictive and reasoned that the love of self superseded God's agape love - a love that is not self-seeking.

[pnattmbtc]

p:I think this is a limited way of looking at the Gospel. It seems to be focusing on solving a legal problem.

R:No...your theology is limited! Without God solving the legal problem nothing else would matter.....So what Christ did is everything. It is complete!

We seem to be at an impasse. You believe that God solved a legal problem by what Christ did, so that what Christ did is everything. I believe that the law simply reflects reality, and that God solved a deeper problem in Christ than a merely legal one.

You believe my theology is limited because I don't view the legal problem to be the really important issue, but rather the revelation of God's true character. I believe considering Christ's work simply in terms of solving a legal problem is what's a limited way of looking at it.

Considering things from strictly man's point of view, man's problem is that he doesn't love God or His principles, which are the principles of agape. In order solve this problem it was necessary that God revealed as He truly is, which Christ accomplished. He did the work which had been given to Him, which was to reveal God's name and manifest His glory.

[Robert]

You believe that God solved a legal problem by what Christ did, so that what Christ did is everything.

God took your life from Adam and at the incarnation He placed you in that humanity Christ assumed from Mary. In that life He lived a perfect life of agape. At the cross you died the death the law demanded. Sunday morning Christ raised you up with Him and therefore you are sitting in heavenly places "in Christ Jesus" (see Eph 2). All this you have "in Christ".

By accepting Him and keeping the faith Christ will give you life out of Himself at the resurrection.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

You believe that God solved a legal problem by what Christ did, so that what Christ did is everything.

God took your life from Adam and at the incarnation He placed you in that humanity Christ assumed from Mary. In that life He lived a perfect life of agape. At the cross you died the death the law demanded. Sunday morning Christ raised you up with Him and therefore you are sitting in heavenly places "in Christ Jesus" (see Eph 2). All this you have "in Christ".

By accepting Him and keeping the faith Christ will give you life out of Himself at the resurrection.

sorry brother, but that sounds kind of dead, lifeless and empty...what happened to that "life and that more abundantly" that i was promised? :)

[teresaq]

i could be way off target here, but i wonder if you both defined what you mean as "the legal problem" if it would help?

[pnattmbtc]

The law demands perfection. This is the legal problem.

Christ perfectly obeyed the law. On the basis of Christ's perfection, God did the things that Robert said, that is:

Quote:

God took your life from Adam and at the incarnation He placed you in that humanity Christ assumed from Mary. In that life He lived a perfect life of agape. At the cross you died the death the law demanded. Sunday morning Christ raised you up with Him and therefore you are sitting in heavenly places "in Christ Jesus" (see Eph 2). All this you have "in Christ".

By accepting Him and keeping the faith Christ will give you life out of Himself at the resurrection.

Quote:

sorry brother, but that sounds kind of dead, lifeless and empty

I agree with this comment.

I spoke some with Robert Wieland about this. Wieland sort of coined the Gospel that Sequeira preaches, although, to be fair to Sequeira, I think Robert may be leaving out some of Sequeira's emphasis. But be that as it may, I'll comment on what Wieland said.

Wieland said that he views the legal justification explanation as "dry theology" and talks about it as little as possible. Instead, Wieland's burden is to speak of the great love of God which was revealed by Christ, especially his death on the cross. Wieland views faith as a heart appreciation of that love, a love which has the power to transform us, and make us obedient to God.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Its not iniquity to get a good education

But it is iniquity if you use that knowledge to build your wealth.....

It is not "iniquity" if you use that education to get a good job, and they pay you well for doing a good job. The Bible counsels us to have very high work ethics where we are to do our best and to be successful. What do you want us to do, tell our employers to just pay us minimum wage so that we do not partake of "iniquity?"

It is to God's glory to make a lot of money, and to use it as He directs - but then, that's all He expects of us, even if we do get paid "minimum wage." Even that can be "iniquity" if it's not used as God directs.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Lets pick the tenth commandment for an example. You say it doesn't apply to God? The very fact that He does not covet shows His character. That's the whole point of it. The commandments were in existence before the OT, as God Himself is "from everlasting." To the one who loves Jesus...they will be able to keep His commandments; realize all ten promises in their life.

Actually he said it *does* apply. However, he said the seventh doesn't apply, which is a bit of an odd conclusion, given how often God portrayed Himself as faithful husband.

Thinking of the Ten Commands as Ten Promises I think is looking at them in the right way.

My apologies to Robert - I misread what you said re the tenth commandment - but what I said about the 10th commandment would still apply.

It does not reflect Bible truth to try and say any of the ten promises do not somehow reflect God's character. That is a very arbitrary thing to say for the principles/hermeneutics employed to arrive at such statements cannot possibly remain consistent for all ten commandments.

The seventh commandment is a good one to look at:

Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

God is a Holy God, He does not want us to commit adultery with our spouses, and this reflects the part of His character which we would look at as faithful. He is faithful, and he cares, and He wants us to do the same for one another. The seventh commandment is not just a command either - if you consider John 14:15; "If ye love Me [you will be able to ] keep My commandments," it fast becomes apparent that God is love. The seventh commandment shows that God wants us to reflect His committment, fidelity and caring to one another; because that's what He has for us. We know that "God is love;" (1 Jo 4:8), and through the seventh commandment with promise is the poignant story in my own life, married for 20 years and counting, how that "love never fails." (1 Cor 13:8). How can the seventh commandment NOT have anything to do with God's character?

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

You believe that God solved a legal problem by what Christ did, so that what Christ did is everything.

God took your life from Adam and at the incarnation He placed you in that humanity Christ assumed from Mary. In that life He lived a perfect life of agape. At the cross you died the death the law demanded. Sunday morning Christ raised you up with Him and therefore you are sitting in heavenly places "in Christ Jesus" (see Eph 2). All this you have "in Christ".

By accepting Him and keeping the faith Christ will give you life out of Himself at the resurrection.

Our new life in Christ starts now. (2 Cor 5:17)

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Our new life in Christ starts now. (2 Cor 5:17)

Quote:

17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Here's another one:

Quote:

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.(Gal. 2:20)

One more:

Quote:

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1 John 5:12)

[Robert]

sorry brother, but that sounds kind of dead, lifeless and empty...what happened to that "life and that more abundantly" that i was promised?

That's your only means of salvation and you just, in smug sanctimonious way, dismissed the gospel.....

[Robert]

Wieland views faith as a heart appreciation of that love, a love which has the power to transform us, and make us obedient to God.

Really? You call yourselves obedient? You guys think that you are living Christ's life? After all His life was in obedience to God's agape love!

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption.

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

If you guys lived Christ's life here on earth you would share His poverty as well. Hence, "those who follow Him must share his poverty."

[Robert]

It is not "iniquity" if you use that education to get a good job, and they pay you well for doing a good job."

[Robert]

How can the seventh commandment NOT have anything to do with God's character?

Because if you read the context it is speaking against mental and physical adultery. All your additions is just that...additions.

[Robert]

It all comes down to this:

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

There was no bent-to-self in Christ's life. He never lived for himself. He didn't engage in Roman's greedy, capitalistic system so He could have His own wealth!

If you guys want to live Christ's life of agape (and agape is the fulfillment of the law) then don't think, plan, live for yourself and see how long, in this world under Lucifer, you manage to stay out from under a bridge. Those who live a life of obedience to God, as did Christ, will "share his poverty."

Tell you what...I'd like to see you guys stand before God's law (and remember, "The law of Jehovah is exceedingly broad") and tell it how selfless you are. I'd like you to tell the law, "Jesus says to make as much money possible so we can help Him out with money."

The law will give one verdict: Guilty! Guilty because you used your bent-to-self for gain. You lived not for others, you built your wealth up and you did it by trying to outdo others....

So you keep thinking that you can stand before God's law and make it to heaven. I'll let Christ stand before God's law because in Him I am complete, but in myself I fall short of God's agape love.

Rob