What is the Gospel?

[pnattmbtc]

This is the them of John. It's all throughout John.

It's also in the synoptic Gospels, although it's couched in different language (the language of the kingdom of God). But "the kingdom of God is within you," and these Gospels are dealing with the same cosmic conflict, and the same answer, which is Jesus Christ.

[Dr. Rich]

Amen! Just wanted you to say it.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But the Merits of Christ, encapsulated in the "blood of Christ" in the Bible are the only means by which this gift can be appropriated and acted upon.

It is the doorway into the abiding experience with Christ.

We don't stop needing the "Merits of Christ" after entering "into the abiding experience with Christ," do we?

Indeed, only under the blood of Christ can anything operate.

But the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the personal presence of God in us individually, comes through this foundational principle.

Some might confuse the merits with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is my concern.

The Merits open up the way for us to have this experience.

Please also note, the bible does not mention "merits" once as a word.

This principle is supplied under the figure of Jesus' "blood" and "sacrifice" and "works".

Again, that is my understanding.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Just so I'm not misunderstood, it's the same Gospel Paul preached. When/if I have time, I'll try to flesh this out.

[Musicman1228]

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, Deut.30:19.

The word 'against' indicates judgement. The choice God gave Israel is exactly the same choice He give each of us today; obedience is life, disobedience is death.

[Twilight]

This constant "Paul was a heathen" posting on every subject does make this forum a difficult place to want to visit...

There are some drums that should be removed from this forum in my view.

Especially when they start thumping on every thread!

Mark

[Dr. Rich]

Censorship! Yep, that is what we need more of! Truth is like a two edge sword--it cuts both ways! It is no wonder that the creatures found under a rock try to hide when the rock is turned over--they don't like the light! Check out Ezk 8:3 and see what people do in the darkness. Yep, it is time for censorship! Darken the words of people that have a different view so Mark can visit this forum without feeling guilty. I bet this is removed too! If it is, then what will you do when the rocks will cry out?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

The choice God gave Israel is exactly the same choice He give each of us today; obedience is life, disobedience is death.

This is because obedience is founded on the principles of self-sacrificing love, while disobedience is founded on the principle of "me first."

Living for self can do no other than to lead to misery, suffering and death.

However, of ourselves, we are unable to break the bonds of selfishness. We need Christ. This is what the New Covenant is about, the gift of Christ, that we might have life.

[pnattmbtc]

This constant "Paul was a heathen" posting on every subject does make this forum a difficult place to want to visit...

There are some drums that should be removed from this forum in my view.

Especially when they start thumping on every thread!

I don't think the drum should be removed. I think John's handling it correctly. There should be threads which are devoted to certain topics, and these things can be discussed there.

Those who disagree with Paul could make a reference to their position, and invite others to the other thread where these things are under discussion.

There are many unusual ideas that people have on this forum. I think pretty much everybody has ideas which are unusual. These unusual ideas make for an interesting place, but we don't need to discuss the same ideas on every thread, or it just becomes the same thread over and over again any time there's a new topic.

[Twilight]

There are many unusual ideas that people have on this forum. I think pretty much everybody has ideas which are unusual. These unusual ideas make for an interesting place, but we don't need to discuss the same ideas on every thread, or it just becomes the same thread over and over again any time there's a new topic.

Indeed.

But it is getting to the point that every thread devolves into "Paul was a heathen" type discussion.

As this is an Adventist board, non-Adventist ideologies like this, should be presented in a manner that keeps it a discreet discussion for those that are interested in discussing it.

And let us be very clear, this is a non-Adventist position being presented.

And when a clearly "non-Adventist" position is drowning out every discussion, then it is right to raise open concerns I believe, on a forum designed to discuss the Advent peoples views.

Mark :-)

[Musicman1228]

pnattmbtc,

As one who disagrees with Paul's theology I applaud your good sense, and John317's. Setting up a thread where we can go to express our concerns about Paul in relationship to current topics is a good idea. We can do just what you said and reference our position and redirect forum members to that thread. This would free up those that do not wish to participate in open discussion to remain consistent in their own theology, while the rest of us that want ALL of the facts concerning these issues would have a separate thread in which to present new information and discuss it without being constantly accused of hijacking threads. It would be a win/win for all.

All in favor say Amen.

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Mark, I hear what you are saying, but you might change your opinion when things start to happen in the near future. All of us are bonified Seventh day Adventists and belong to the oldesest (same teacher) Sabbath School at the SDA Church.

What we are doing is questioning the authority of Paul over the words of Jesus when we see that there is a controversy. If you don't agree, that is up to you, but if you want to join a mutual admiration society and be rocked to sleep in boredom, be my guest.

By the Way--and for your information: There is NOT one thing wrong with believing that the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses trump anything else in the New Testament. This is how the SDA church got it's start and what kept it going all this time. If you really understood what it means to be a Seventh day Adventist, then Mark, you would also know that the SDA church IS the 'rock cut out w/o hands found in Dan. 2, and the group talked about in the prophecy of Matthew 21:43, and the Kingdom of Heaven right now as found in Matthew 25, and all of the seven messages to the Kingdom of Heaven found in Rev. 2 and 3. Now you can take that to the bank!

[Twilight]

I agree MM. :-)

[Twilight]

Hey Mark, I hear what you are saying, but you might change your opinion when things start to happen in the near future. All of us are bonified Seventh day Adventists and belong to the oldesest (same teacher) Sabbath School at the SDA Church.

What we are doing is questioning the authority of Paul over the words of Jesus when we see that there is a controversy. If you don't agree, that is up to you, but if you want to join a mutual admiration society and be rocked to sleep in boredom, be my guest.

By the Way--and for your information: There is NOT one thing wrong with believing that the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses trump anything else in the New Testament. This is how the SDA church got it's start and what kept it going all this time. If you really understood what it means to be a Seventh day Adventist, then Mark, you would also know that the SDA church IS the 'rock cut out w/o hands found in Dan. 2, and the group talked about in the prophecy of Matthew 21:43, and the Kingdom of Heaven right now as found in Matthew 25, and all of the seven messages to the Kingdom of Heaven found in Rev. 2 and 3. Now you can take that to the bank!

I would welcome honesty here Dr Rich.

My understanding is that you do not accept the Canon of the Bible in its current form as inspired.

That is a fundamental difference in position from the SDA position.

Therefore what you are teaching and preaching is not an SDA position at all.

Therefore your views do not represent Seventh Day Adventist thought at all.

If you do not realise that, then now might be the time to reconsider your position.

You have a right to your views and I respect that.

But they are not even remotely mainstream SDA or even Protestant for that matter.

It seems you want to work in the SDA church as an SDA, but at that same time preach a non-SDA position.

We can disagree on fine points as SDA's, but your views fundamentally challenge even the most basic Protestant positions.

God bless,

Mark

[Musicman1228]

The instruction given by Jesus Christ is that to be a follower of His we must abide in HIS word, and then we become HIS disciples. When you do that all else becomes secondary in importance. Jesus never said that we were to abide in the words of anyone other than Him.

There is no direct instruction from Jesus Christ that we are to give credence to any Scripture other than the Scripture He used when He was on earth, i.e. the Old Testament. When seeking His words in Scripture one must go to the source, which is reliably given by the disciples that lived with Him, and were personally instructed by Him when He was here on earth. Any other descriptions and accounts of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ are mere conjecture and as far as I am concerned cannot be place on the same level of authority as the eyewitness accounts.

If this makes me something other than a card carrying SDA then so be it. I am first and foremost a follower of Jesus Christ, His bondservant. Just being an SDA does not guarantee admittance into the Kingdom of God.

[Dr. Rich]

Mark, while I would agree with you at first glance (skin deep), I would have to disagree with you because of what Jesus said and taught on who the SDA church IS today. Do you really want honesty? Then please note that the SDA church is NOT 28 fundamental beliefs for they are MAN made beliefs. It is a fact that the REAL Kingdom of Heaven today is NOT a 501© 3 corporation doing business (yes, it is a business) in the name of Seventh Day Adventist. This is why this corporation used the court/government to secure it's name as a 'trademark'.

Mark, you and most others may belong to this corporation (a privilege given by the government to exist), but God NEVER intended for HIS Kingdom of Heaven to be established in such an evil manner.

Here is the thing: Jesus said (and I believe Him) that "His sheep know the voice of the Shepherd". If you want to belong to this Kingdom then you MUST first become righteous and give up believing all of the lies you now believe (as all of the other people who call themselves christian now do.) Then you must become born of the Holy Spirit as found in John 3. Only then can you even SEE what the real Kingdom of Heaven is about.

So tell me, how can one preach the gospel (good news) about the Kingdom of Heaven without even knowing anything about it? Since it WAS Jesus that told us what the Kingdom of Heaven would look like at the time of Jesus' coming like a thief (Matthew 25), then how can you and anyone else complain? Take your complaint to Jesus because He is the one who told us about the Kingdom of Heaven.

What I am pointing out is the HONEST truth. What you and most everyone else is following is fiction (Rev. 2:20) so don't preach to me about honesty!

If you want to take this to court, remember that the only court that has any meaning is God's court. As a REAL HONEST Adventist, I stand by the words of Jesus first and foremost! (Take a gander at what happened to Jezebel's false prophets--for the same is about to happen to the SDA church!

[pnattmbtc]

Here is the thing: Jesus said (and I believe Him) that "His sheep know the voice of the Shepherd". If you want to belong to this Kingdom then you MUST first become righteous and give up believing all of the lies you now believe (as all of the other people who call themselves christian now do.) Then you must become born of the Holy Spirit as found in John 3.

[Twilight]

The instruction given by Jesus Christ is that to be a follower of His we must abide in HIS word, and then we become HIS disciples. When you do that all else becomes secondary in importance. Jesus never said that we were to abide in the words of anyone other than Him.

There is no direct instruction from Jesus Christ that we are to give credence to any Scripture other than the Scripture He used when He was on earth, i.e. the Old Testament. When seeking His words in Scripture one must go to the source, which is reliably given by the disciples that lived with Him, and were personally instructed by Him when He was here on earth. Any other descriptions and accounts of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ are mere conjecture and as far as I am concerned cannot be place on the same level of authority as the eyewitness accounts.

If this makes me something other than a card carrying SDA then so be it. I am first and foremost a follower of Jesus Christ, His bondservant. Just being an SDA does not guarantee admittance into the Kingdom of God.

But would you agree that your view of the canon is different to that of the fundamentally stated position of the Adventist church MM?

And that therefore, you are not in agreement with the fundamental positions of the SDA church.

Which means that you are not really a practicing SDA, but rather an offshoot organisation?

God bless,

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Mark, while I would agree with you at first glance (skin deep), I would have to disagree with you because of what Jesus said and taught on who the SDA church IS today. Do you really want honesty? Then please note that the SDA church is NOT 28 fundamental beliefs for they are MAN made beliefs. It is a fact that the REAL Kingdom of Heaven today is NOT a 501© 3 corporation doing business (yes, it is a business) in the name of Seventh Day Adventist. This is why this corporation used the court/government to secure it's name as a 'trademark'.

I am asking you to clarify that you do not actually hold the same stated beliefs as the Seventh Day Adventist church as a whole Dr Rich.

Therefore, you are not in fact a practicing SDA?

Mark

[Dr. Rich]

Mark, I just attended church where and when my grandson was baptized and went to a lunch potluck with the preachers/pastors of this well known church. We discussed the 28 fundamental doctrines and found it interesting that all three of the pastors that were involved in this church agree that NO ONE has to believe in all of the 28 fundamental doctrines to become a member of the SDA Church.

I seriously doubt that not believing some of the 18 points will cause one to lose their membership. I know first hand that most SDA churches keep the names of people, who are members, on their books even though they are long gone and have no intention of being a SDA. If you took a pole of people here on this forum you will probably find that the majority do not fully believe in all of them.

Here in Loma Linda, people argue over being vegan or not and if you aren't one then you are a sinner because you are responsible for killing and one of the commandments says "Thou shalt not kill". How stupid is this? Therefore, I find your argument in the same light as the one I just told you about.

Mark, Satan was thrown out of Heaven because he had sin in him. God left the temple here on earth when Israel turned to sin. All of this makes it clear that sin and God to not in anyway co-exist. The Holy Spirit is God and therefore the Holy Spirit can't co-exist with anyone who is sinful (full of sin). Therefore, one MUST first become righteous BEFORE they can be Born into the same Family as was Jesus. Try as you might, you just can't change this fact!

[Guest]

If that were a fact you would be right. But as usual you've got it wrong.

[Guest]

I am asking you to clarify that you do not actually hold the same stated beliefs as the Seventh Day Adventist church as a whole Dr Rich.

Therefore, you are not in fact a practicing SDA?

Mark

Bingo!

[John317]

It's one thing to have questions and some doubts but not have one's mind made up and to be sincerely seeking for truth, but it is altogether a different thing for members to teach that Ellen White was a false prophet or deluded; that Paul was a liar and a servent of the devil; and that most of the NT are false books.

If those are your private ideas, that would be one thing, but if someone in the church is trying to enourage people to have these beliefs, that is a totally different ball game. Wouldn't you agree?

Did you tell those pastors what you believe and teach people, including other SDAs?

[Guest]

I would. 100%

[Dr. Rich]

Yep! Now they are interested and all of them want to learn more.

Here is the thing: IF you just hear bit's and pieces it will not do you any good. Attend 6 times and then give your opinion. Every pastor we have had has been given the chance to do this and some have but NONE of them have found anything that the words of Jesus and the OT can't refute. Some refuse to even come to the class, and that is their choice just as it is everyone's choice. We do NOT push anyone into believing. They must fully make their own choice.

I have written this before, but new people are probably here like Mark, so do not fear-we do NOT want you to accept anything that we say-do your own study.

Just because we took off our rose colored glasses does not mean that we are wrong. Both of you, John and Richard have made it known that you believe we are the devils servants. Someday soon we will see. I find it interesting that I feel the same way toward you. So tell me, how do you think Elijah felt going up against Jezebel's prophets?

For you who take EGW seriously, she said that new truth will be rejected and it will probably cause the shaking. So tell me, just what is "new truth"?