What is the Gospel?

[Musicman1228]

Every single thing that we believe and teach is available for study at the following links: The Revelation of Jesus, The Bible on Trial or Spirit of Truth Web site. We have kept NOTHING hidden. Everything is right out in the open where anyone can see it. This is just what Jesus did and follow the example of Jesus Christ.

[Dr. Rich]

Mark, you have no idea what you are saying! Being clueless as to who the SDA Church is today is why Jesus said they are all sleeping. It was prophesied that would happen and you are a perfect example of that.

It was also prophesied that someone from this group would put to test those who called themselves an apostle and find that they are false apostles. This happened just as was prophesied.

It was also prophesied that a women called a prophet inside the church would do the same as the first Jezebel, and lo and behold, that is exactly what has happened, for her teachings have indeed led the bondservants astray and now they are committing acts of spiritual adultery (taking the words of others before Jesus' words) and eating food (what they think is truth) offered to idols (lies). After all, didn't God say not to have any other gods before Him?

For me Mark, I am 100% doing what Jesus commanded and as such, I am a bondservant in this organization right now called the SDA Church, which is the same as the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Twilight]

Mark, I just attended church where and when my grandson was baptized and went to a lunch potluck with the preachers/pastors of this well known church. We discussed the 28 fundamental doctrines and found it interesting that all three of the pastors that were involved in this church agree that NO ONE has to believe in all of the 28 fundamental doctrines to become a member of the SDA Church.

I seriously doubt that not believing some of the 18 points will cause one to lose their membership. I know first hand that most SDA churches keep the names of people, who are members, on their books even though they are long gone and have no intention of being a SDA. If you took a pole of people here on this forum you will probably find that the majority do not fully believe in all of them.

Here in Loma Linda, people argue over being vegan or not and if you aren't one then you are a sinner because you are responsible for killing and one of the commandments says "Thou shalt not kill". How stupid is this? Therefore, I find your argument in the same light as the one I just told you about.

Mark, Satan was thrown out of Heaven because he had sin in him. God left the temple here on earth when Israel turned to sin. All of this makes it clear that sin and God to not in anyway co-exist. The Holy Spirit is God and therefore the Holy Spirit can't co-exist with anyone who is sinful (full of sin). Therefore, one MUST first become righteous BEFORE they can be Born into the same Family as was Jesus. Try as you might, you just can't change this fact!

So have you managed to become "righteous" by your own efforts Rich, so that you can now receive the Holy Spirit?

"There is none righteous, no not one."

[Twilight]

It's one thing to have questions and some doubts but not have one's mind made up and to be sincerely seeking for truth, but it is altogether a different thing for members to teach that Ellen White was a false prophet or deluded; that Paul was a liar and a servent of the devil; and that most of the NT are false books.

If those are your private ideas, that would be one thing, but if someone in the church is trying to enourage people to have these beliefs, that is a totally different ball game. Wouldn't you agree?

Did you tell those pastors what you believe and teach people, including other SDAs?

Indeed.

[Twilight]

My point is simple.

If Dr Rich, MM and Wayfinder want to promote those views, that is fine.

But it strikes me as dishonest if someone pretends they are an "SDA", when they clearly reject a lot of the foundational doctrinal positions.

The only reason someone could do that that I can think of is:

1. They are trying to evangalise others into their "group" and are pretending to be SDA to facilitate that.

2. They have not had the courage of their convictions yet and left the church.

In both cases, remaining in the Church is damaging and pretending to be a member is in my view dishonest, with either oneself or others.

Mark

[Twilight]

For me Mark, I am 100% doing what Jesus commanded and as such, I am a bondservant in this organization right now called the SDA Church, which is the same as the Kingdom of Heaven.

So you have totally overcome all propensities to sin then Dr Rich?

By your own efforts and without the Holy Spirit? (Although Jesus never commanded that, you are the one saying He did).

So how is that going?

Are you a shining light?

How do you family view you?

Do you ever succumb to any temptation?

[Twilight]

Every single thing that we believe and teach is available for study at the following links: The Revelation of Jesus, The Bible on Trial or Spirit of Truth Web site. We have kept NOTHING hidden. Everything is right out in the open where anyone can see it. This is just what Jesus did and follow the example of Jesus Christ.

No thank you MM.

I will stick with the bible, not just sections of it to support some form of ultra legalism.

Which is what you are teaching (righteousness before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit).

[Twilight]

Mark, you have no idea what you are saying! Being clueless as to who the SDA Church is today is why Jesus said they are all sleeping.

Where did Jesus say that the SDA church was sleeping?

Do you really think the virgins applies to the "SDA" church?

That would be a very narrow view.

[oldsailor29]

The flesh and blood of Christ are the truth and the experience.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Every single thing that we believe and teach is available for study at the following links: The Revelation of Jesus, The Bible on Trial or Spirit of Truth Web site. We have kept NOTHING hidden. Everything is right out in the open where anyone can see it. This is just what Jesus did and follow the example of Jesus Christ.

No thank you MM.

I will stick with the bible, not just sections of it to support some form of ultra legalism.

Which is what you are teaching (righteousness before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit).

I did not ask you to replace the Bible with anything. We were accused of hiding what we believe from our church (local) and the above was my response. I am NOT a legalist, but I am in the process to become LAWFUL.

The Holy Spirit works with everyone that will accept Her ministry, but God cannot indwell anyone in whom there is sin. See John 3:21.

Also, I will stick with what Jesus Christ has said about salvation over anything that you believe. including sections in the Bible that support some form of ultra-lawlessness.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Mark, you have no idea what you are saying! Being clueless as to who the SDA Church is today is why Jesus said they are all sleeping.

Where did Jesus say that the SDA church was sleeping?

Do you really think the virgins applies to the "SDA" church?

That would be a very narrow view.

It is not a narrow view, it is a specific view. What other body of believers went out to meet the Bridegroom at a specific time based on a specific prophecy? The only reason that you cannot see this is because you do not recognize that the 'parable' found in Matt.25;1-13 is actually a prophecy given by Jesus to help the bridesmaids see who they are. Yes, I do believe that Jesus is speaking of the SDA church both here and in the messages to the 7 Churches in Rev.2 and 3.

(Jesus was always specific; ref. the wide path vs. the narrow path.)

[Dr. Rich]

Mark, your opinions do not mean anything because you have not and will not take the time to investigate both sides to the issue(s). A good lawyer will never ask a question that he does not already know the answer. If he is really good, he will know all about the case and that is what discovery is all about. We have invited everyone here to do their discovery. Some have taken us up on our offer and have taken their rose colored glasses off and can see what we see.

Jesus too had many other disciples but left Him when His teaching became too hard to understand. Was this the fault of Jesus?

Paul became popular because his gospel allowed people to not feel guilty for not keeping the commandments. Paul clearly knew how hard it was trying to keep the law as required by the '28 fundamental doctrines' (Jewish man made laws) that had been passed down by tradition. Therefore, when the god he had his vision from showed him that "my grace is sufficient" (2Cor.12:7) and that it was ok to still have a demon, one can imagine how good he felt to get rid of all of this guilt. It is no wonder he wanted to share this good feeling with others.

And just look what his gospel has done--it started a new religion called "Christianity" where one can feel good thinking that they are saved by grace because Jesus' death took away their sins. People in our SDA church have turned their backs on the commandments lately because pastors and teachers teach this "saved by grace" theology.

On the other hand, the gospel that Jesus was giving, 'listen and obey God's words', made the people mad as heck! In fact it made them so mad that they killed Him. Jesus said that He did not come to save everyone, He said He came to save the lost sheep of the Kingdom of Heaven (aka Israel). He also said to think not that He came to bring peace, for His word will cause anything but peace. He said to go thru the narrow gate and take the narrow road. One must have eyes to see in order to do this. Those with only blind faith will be scared to death to take this narrow road.

This all reminds me of my grandmother many years ago riding up to our ranch in the mountains in Colorado. At that time the road was just a mining road only a jeep could go on, with a cliff on one side and many curves (switchbacks). She was so scared she would not ride and it was all we could do to get her to walk it. Talk about a narrow road! Well, I believe that this is what Jesus was talking about.

So Mark, as for me, I am following the words of Jesus who said to seek ye first the KOH AND His righteous. I have NOT yet been born again by the Holy Spirit (sealed) but look forward to that day.

And one more thing Mark, why do you think sin is so hard to get rid of? One does not have do this without the Holy Spirit and I have never suggested that. It is one thing for the Holy Spirit to help you and another to have the Holy Spirit living with you. You can't have unity with God until you become born into the family of God. Adoption will NOT work--for Jesus never taught anything about adoption.

[Twilight]

I did not ask you to replace the Bible with anything. We were accused of hiding what we believe from our church (local) and the above was my response. I am NOT a legalist, but I am in the process to become LAWFUL.

The Holy Spirit works with everyone that will accept Her ministry, but God cannot indwell anyone in whom there is sin. See John 3:21.

Also, I will stick with what Jesus Christ has said about salvation over anything that you believe. including sections in the Bible that support some form of ultra-lawlessness.

[Twilight]

Mark, your opinions do not mean anything because you have not and will not take the time to investigate both sides to the issue(s). A good lawyer will never ask a question that he does not already know the answer. If he is really good, he will know all about the case and that is what discovery is all about. We have invited everyone here to do their discovery. Some have taken us up on our offer and have taken their rose colored glasses off and can see what we see.

Jesus too had many other disciples but left Him when His teaching became too hard to understand. Was this the fault of Jesus?

Paul became popular because his gospel allowed people to not feel guilty for not keeping the commandments. Paul clearly knew how hard it was trying to keep the law as required by the '28 fundamental doctrines' (Jewish man made laws) that had been passed down by tradition. Therefore, when the god he had his vision from showed him that "my grace is sufficient" (2Cor.12:7) and that it was ok to still have a demon, one can imagine how good he felt to get rid of all of this guilt. It is no wonder he wanted to share this good feeling with others.

And just look what his gospel has done--it started a new religion called "Christianity" where one can feel good thinking that they are saved by grace because Jesus' death took away their sins. People in our SDA church have turned their backs on the commandments lately because pastors and teachers teach this "saved by grace" theology.

On the other hand, the gospel that Jesus was giving, 'listen and obey God's words', made the people mad as heck! In fact it made them so mad that they killed Him. Jesus said that He did not come to save everyone, He said He came to save the lost sheep of the Kingdom of Heaven (aka Israel). He also said to think not that He came to bring peace, for His word will cause anything but peace. He said to go thru the narrow gate and take the narrow road. One must have eyes to see in order to do this. Those with only blind faith will be scared to death to take this narrow road.

This all reminds me of my grandmother many years ago riding up to our ranch in the mountains in Colorado. At that time the road was just a mining road only a jeep could go on, with a cliff on one side and many curves (switchbacks). She was so scared she would not ride and it was all we could do to get her to walk it. Talk about a narrow road! Well, I believe that this is what Jesus was talking about.

So Mark, as for me, I am following the words of Jesus who said to seek ye first the KOH AND His righteous. I have NOT yet been born again by the Holy Spirit (sealed) but look forward to that day.

And one more thing Mark, why do you think sin is so hard to get rid of? One does not have do this without the Holy Spirit and I have never suggested that. It is one thing for the Holy Spirit to help you and another to have the Holy Spirit living with you. You can't have unity with God until you become born into the family of God. Adoption will NOT work--for Jesus never taught anything about adoption.

I am sorry Dr Rich.

But your input into my spirituality dies when you by your posts try to imply this:

"I know more than Paul about the Gospel."

As soon as you take that position, I have absolutely no time for your doctrine.

Does not mean I do not love you and respect you, but it does mean that I know you are preaching a false Gospel.

------------

As to Paul, he rightly taught that man of himself cannot keep the law.

Are you keeping the law Dr Rich?

You have wandered a long long way from home my friend.

Mark

[Musicman1228]

Only a false, despicable and evil God would give Commandments that He knew from the get-go would be impossible to perform. Are you saying that this is what the Creator God, the God of the Heavens did to Israel? If so, then you hold a very low opinion about that God.

There is an SDA woman author who says this very thing in her writing (I can't remember her name). She says that the God of the Old Testament was in fact Satan, because only Satan would come up with a set of requirements as were the 10 Commandments, that he knew could not and would not be performed. She states that the God of the New Testament is the real God because He is a God of love above all else. She says that the god of the Old Testament is not the same God as in the New Testament. Is this what you believe?

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. His plans are perfect from the beginning to the end. Paul states categorically that God changed His mind about the Law, because the Law brought with it sin and death. Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the Law and the Prophets, but to fulfill them. Paul states that in fulfilling the Law Jesus laid them aside and did away with them. Please explain to me in simple terms how this works, because I just don't see it.

Either God knew what He was doing from the beginning or He didn't. If He didn't then He isn't God, and this is just what most Christians believe. Is this what you believe? If not, why not? If so, why so?

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228:

There is an SDA woman author who says this very thing in her writing (I can't remember her name).

Isn't she a former SDA? I think I know who you are talking about but she is not currently SDA.

She lives back east, it seems. I wouldn't accept her newsletter. I won't have that kind of material in my house-- teaching that the God of the Old Testament is Satan. Nor would I have anything in my house which teaches Jesus was evil; that Paul is a liar; or that Ellen White is a false prophet. It would be thrown on the trash heap.

[Dr. Rich]

Quote:

Musicman1228:

There is an SDA woman author who says this very thing in her writing (I can't remember her name).

Isn't she a former SDA? I think I know who you are talking about but she is not currently SDA.

No, she still claims to be a SDA- and she sends me her monthly news letter all the time. I can't remember her name right now.

The thing is this: When you read this stuff and see how Paul's words have duped so many people, it really makes me mad or angry at Paul and at those who proclaim Paul's words over what Jesus said. Ok?

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich:

The thing is this: When you read this stuff and see how Paul's words have duped so many people, it really makes me mad or angry at Paul and at those who proclaim Paul's words over what Jesus said. Ok?

It's not about Paul. It's the simple fact that both you and she don't understand the Bible. You don't understand Paul-- and you've proven it over and again by what you say Paul teaches-- and she doesn't understand the Old Testament. There were early Christians like that-- they considered the OT God the devil. That is what this woman thinks. Google Marcion. Marcion also didn't understand the OT or Paul, which of course means he didn't understand Jesus Christ, either.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: No, she still claims to be a SDA- and she sends me her monthly news letter all the time.

Seems that she's as confused as you are, then, beleiving as you do about Paul, James (the apostle), and Ellen White. How can she be SDA and believe the Old Testament God who made the Sabbath and wrote the Ten Commandments was the devil?

I guess some people think you can be SDA and believe and do just about anything.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Musicman1228:

There is an SDA woman author who says this very thing in her writing (I can't remember her name).

Isn't she a former SDA? I think I know who you are talking about but she is not currently SDA.

She lives back east, it seems. I wouldn't accept her newsletter. I won't have that kind of material in my house-- teaching that the God of the Old Testament is Satan. Nor would I have anything in my house which teaches Jesus was evil; that Paul is a liar; or that Ellen White is a false prophet. It would be thrown on the trash heap.

Why would you use a person like this as "support" for your position MM?

[Twilight]

Quote:

Dr. Rich:

The thing is this: When you read this stuff and see how Paul's words have duped so many people, it really makes me mad or angry at Paul and at those who proclaim Paul's words over what Jesus said. Ok?

It's not about Paul. It's the simple fact that both you and she don't understand the Bible. You don't understand Paul-- and you've proven it over and again by what you say Paul teaches--

I would agree with this.

Paul teaches obedience in its highest purest simplest form.

Anyone that thinks he doesn't does not understand His writings.

As Peter said:

2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

According to Peter (who you accept as inspired I believe), there will come those that wrest Pauls writings and the other scriptures to their own destruction.

This is what you are doing Dr Rich.

You are presenting legalism and denying Grace.

Also please note that Peter considered Pauls writings as "scripture".

This one text simply once and for all refutes your whole position.

Now you may find some desperate way to escape this simple conclusion, but you have no real means with which to justify your position with this text staring you in the face.

You are teaching lies and error with these teachings, you are decieved, according to this one simple scripture that condemns your position.

I pray God will rescue you, but I have seen so many that think that "they" have all the light (an easy tempation for pride to answer to - and it is pride that thinks it can keep Gods Law), that I begin to despair when people like yourself present their "fanatical" my way or the highway (over and above the bible) views as the "truth". It deeply saddens me.

Mark

[John317]

I'm sorry to say Dr. Rich doesn't accept Peter. The only books in the New Testment that he accepts are most of the gospel of Matthew, all of the gospel of John, I, II, & III John and Revelation.

[Twilight]

I'm sorry to say Dr. Rich doesn't accept Peter. The only books in the New Testment that he accepts are most of the gospel of Matthew, all of the gospel of John, I, II, & III John and Revelation.

Why is that Dr Rich?

Is that because Peter refutes your position?

It seems you reject all the writings in the bible that do not conform to your opinion?

[Christopher]

thought this subject of what MM and others believe and what not was going to be elsewhere and that this topic was about "what is the Gospel"?

[Musicman1228]

What gospel are we talking about? There are two; the gospel that says all you must do to be saved is claim a personal relationship with Jesus Christ; the other says that you must be in the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved. So which is it? Please provide references for both.