What is the Gospel?

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

It is not "iniquity" if you use that education to get a good job, and they pay you well for doing a good job."

The whole process of education is to get a leg up on the competition, who are you kidding?

"What is the trend of the education given? To what motive is appeal most often made? To self-seeking."

“Without the vital principles of true religion, without knowledge of how to serve and glorify the Redeemer, education is more harmful than beneficial.”

Quote:

It is to God's glory to make a lot of money, and to use it as He directs - but then, that's all He expects of us, even if we do get paid "minimum wage."

Oh, the old make lot's of money as long as I'm giving God a portion. The flesh justifying its love of self. Wow! Good one!

Robert; Eccl 9:10 says that whatsoever our hands find to do we are to do it with all our might. Are you choosing to disobey this clear gospel teaching?

And unlike what you tried to say about what I said, this clear Bible teaching also applies to minimum wage earners.

[Robert]

-BC- PK

-TI- Prophets and Kings

-CN- 47

-CT- Joshua and the Angel

-PR- 02

-PG- 588

The tempter stands by to accuse them [if you read the context EGW says that Satan has an accurate account of our sins], as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ , which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.

"Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God ; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God ? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness , their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them.”

[Overaged]

It all comes down to this:

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

There was no bent-to-self in Christ's life. He never lived for himself. He didn't engage in Roman's greedy, capitalistic system so He could have His own wealth!

If you guys want to live Christ's life of agape (and agape is the fulfillment of the law) then don't think, plan, live for yourself and see how long, in this world under Lucifer, you manage to stay out from under a bridge. Those who live a life of obedience to God, as did Christ, will "share his poverty."

Tell you what...I'd like to see you guys stand before God's law (and remember, "The law of Jehovah is exceedingly broad") and tell it how selfless you are. I'd like you to tell the law, "Jesus says to make as much money possible so we can help Him out with money."

The law will give one verdict: Guilty! Guilty because you used your bent-to-self for gain. You lived not for others, you built your wealth up and you did it by trying to outdo others....

So you keep thinking that you can stand before God's law and make it to heaven. I'll let Christ stand before God's law because in Him I am complete, but in myself I fall short of God's agape love.

Rob

Hmmm; are you the only one here who is "in Him complete?"

[Overaged]

-BC- PK

-TI- Prophets and Kings

-CN- 47

-CT- Joshua and the Angel

-PR- 02

-PG- 588

The tempter stands by to accuse them [if you read the context EGW says that Satan has an accurate account of our sins], as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ , which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.

But Jesus points to Calvary for us.

[Robert]

Eccl 9:10 says that whatsoever our hands find to do we are to do it with all our might. Are you choosing to disobey this clear gospel teaching?

Wow, what a Holy Joe! This is the gospel? Man, you have lost it....Maybe the gospel of self.

The above quote has truth because of grace, but you guys claim to be commandment keepers. So which is it? Grace or law? If the latter then you'll never make it because you are still bent-to-self.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

-BC- PK

-TI- Prophets and Kings

-CN- 47

-CT- Joshua and the Angel

-PR- 02

-PG- 588

The tempter stands by to accuse them [if you read the context EGW says that Satan has an accurate account of our sins], as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ , which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.

But Jesus points to Calvary for us.

Yeah, otherwise all your wealth would condemn you! Now don't get me wrong, if you have Jesus there will be less self-seeking...you'll become less selfish....but to say you are living Christ's life, well, who are you kidding?

[Guest]

E.J. Waggoner had some thoughts on this:

The Law from Sinai Christ's Righteousness

The words spoken from Sinai, coming from the same Rock whence came the water which was the life of the people, showed the nature of the righteousness that Christ would impart to them. While it was "a fiery law," it was at the same time a gently-flowing stream of life.

Because the prophet Isaiah knew that Christ was the Rock smitten at Sinai, and that even then He was the One Mediator, "the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time," he could say, "He was wounded for our transgressions," "and with His stripes we are healed."

For the ancient Israelites there was emphasized the lesson that the law comes as life to men only through the cross of Christ. For us there is the same lesson, together with the other side of it, namely, that the righteousness which comes to us through the life given to us on the cross, is precisely that which is required by the ten commandments, and none other. Let us read them:--

1. "I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the Land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage; Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

2. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, nor any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them, for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me, and keep My commandments. {1900 EJW, EVCO 309.4}

3. "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

4. "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5. "Honour thy father and thy mother; that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

6. "Thou shalt not kill.

7. "Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. "Thou shalt not steal.

9. "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10. "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbour's."

Why the Cross makes no change in the Law

This is the law that was uttered amid the terrors of Sinai, by the lips of Him whose life it was and is, and from whom had come the stream which was at that moment flowing--His own life given for the people. The Cross, with its healing, life-giving stream was at Sinai, and hence the Cross cannot possibly make any change in the law. The life proceeding from Christ at Sinai as at Calvary, shows that the righteousness which is revealed in the Gospel is none other than that of the ten commandments.

Not one jot nor one tittle could pass away. The awfulness of Sinai was at Calvary, in the thick darkness, the earthquake, and the great voice of the Son of God. The smitten rock and the flowing stream at Sinai represented Calvary; Calvary was there; so that it is an actual fact that from Calvary the ten commandments are proclaimed in the identical words that were heard from Sinai. Calvary, not less than Sinai, reveals the terrible and unchanging holiness of the law of God, so terrible and so unchangeable that it spared not even the Son of God when "He was reckoned among the transgressors." But however great the terror inspired by the law, the hope by grace is even greater; for "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Back of all stands the oath of God's covenant of grace, assuring the perfect righteousness and life of the law in Christ; so that although the law spoke death, it only showed what great things God had promised to do for those who believe. It teaches us to have no confidence in the flesh, but to worship God in the Spirit, and to rejoice in Christ Jesus. Thus God was proving His people, that they might know that "man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live."

Thus we see that the law is not against the promises of God, even though it cannot give life. On the contrary, it backs up those promises in thunder tones; for with God's oath ever steadfast, the greatest requirement of the law is to the ear of faith but a promise of its fulfillment. And so, taught by the Lord Jesus, we may "know that His commandment is life everlasting." {1900 EJW, EVCO 311}

[pnattmbtc]

That's your only means of salvation and you just, in smug sanctimonious way, dismissed the gospel.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Robert

That's your only means of salvation and you just, in smug sanctimonious way, dismissed the gospel.

I think what we have here is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. You with your laughing emoticons display a tone that is "just" and "sanctimonious" as well as mean-spirited and irreverent. It's hardly an attractive way to present views which you believe to be truth.

Regarding the agape of God having the power to transform us and make us obedient to God, we see this very thing happened in the lives of Christ's disciples, who gave up their all to be followers of Christ.

Quote:

Notice in the above account that the taking away of the filthy garments is the same as causing the iniquity to pass from the person. And so we find that when Christ covers us with the robe of His own righteousness, He does not furnish a cloak for sin but takes the sin away. And this shows that the forgiveness of sins is something more than a mere form, something more than a mere entry in the books of record in heaven, to the effect that the sin has been canceled. The forgiveness of sins is a reality; it is something tangible, something that vitally affects the individual. It actually clears him from guilt, and if he is cleared from guilt, is justified, made righteous, he has certainly undergone a radical change. He is, indeed, another person, for he obtained this righteousness for the remission of sins, in Christ. It was obtained only by putting on Christ. But "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Cor. 5:17. And so the full and free forgiveness of sins carries with it that wonderful and miraculous change known as the new birth, for a man cannot become a new creature except by a new birth. This is the same as having a new, or a clean, heart.

The new heart is a heart that loves righteousness and hates sin. It is a heart of willingness to be led into the paths of righteousness.(Christ and His Righteousness; Waggoner)

Regarding seeing a marked contrast between ourselves and Christ, everyone sees that. One does not need continue in rebellion against God to see such a contrast.

Regarding Christ's not living or planning for himself, that's the life of any Christian. No one who lives for self would be happy in heaven. Do you disagree?

Regarding the bent to self, that's a question of nature, not the mind, you're talking about, isn't it? Paul invites us to "receive the mind of Christ." That's not a mind bent to self, is it?

None of your posts deal with what I believe to be the primary issue, which is not a legal one, but the problem of not believing the truth about God. If we buy into Satan's lies, viewing God as petty, harsh, and severe, how can that not harm profoundly any relationship we would have with Him?

Amen

[pnattmbtc]

The above quote has truth because of grace, but you guys claim to be commandment keepers. So which is it? Grace or law?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

sorry brother, but that sounds kind of dead, lifeless and empty...what happened to that "life and that more abundantly" that i was promised?

That's your only means of salvation and you just, in smug sanctimonious way, dismissed the gospel.....

that didnt really answer my question about the ""life and that more abundantly" that i was promised?" i had asked...

[mrsducky]

"Earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can." John Wesley (Remember the parable of the 10 talents?) Some God blesses with wealth and some He does not. That is not the point. It is not a sin to have wealth. It is how you manage what He gives. Remember the widow's "huge" offering? Also remember that if it had not been for a wealthy follower of Jesus he would not have had a tomb for his burial. And again it was the movtive of loving Jesus that prompted those actions.

[Robert]

When one is born again, the law is written on the heart and mind, right? Being "bent-to-self" applies to the flesh, not the mind, right? We are to receive the "mind of Christ," a mind which was not bent to self. Christ took the same nature we have.

Then why are you still living for yourself?

[Robert]

that didnt really answer my question about the ""life and that more abundantly" that i was promised?"

You'll have a mansion in heaven....If you think Christ is speaking of here a lot of believers went to the graves dirt poor.

[Robert]

"Earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can." John Wesley

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The above quote has truth because of grace, but you guys claim to be commandment keepers. So which is it? Grace or law?

Your idea is that to be under grace requires disobedience?

Okay, then love your neighbor as you love yourself. Get busy....Oh, you still have your stuff! Hmmm...you love self, huh?

Case closed

[Robert]

We are to receive the "mind of Christ," a mind which was not bent to self. Christ took the same nature we have.

Then "the flesh" still has power of your mind because you still are serving yourself.....Love your neighbor as you do yourself! Self-love is sin (and the opposite of self-love is not self-hate, it is selflessness)

[Robert]

Being "bent-to-self" applies to the flesh, not the mind, right?

That's why I quoted Romans 7 concerning character. In some areas believers are experiencing Romans 8, but not in all. Apparently we still have that "taint of sin" that pulls us towards self.

If you wish to be perfect, Love your neighbor instead. That's how it will be in heaven. Give all your possessions to your neighbor. That's loving your neighbor as you naturally love self.

[Robert]

Regarding Christ's not living or planning for himself, that's the life of any Christian. No one who lives for self would be happy in heaven. Do you disagree?

Then you won't be happy....It took a lot of planning for that car, home, and the goodies you have in that home. It takes a lot of self-love to work everyday so you can have even more wealth. That's iniquity...so according to your own legalistic theology you can kiss haven goodbye!

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc: When one is born again, the law is written on the heart and mind, right? Being "bent-to-self" applies to the flesh, not the mind, right? We are to receive the "mind of Christ," a mind which was not bent to self. Christ took the same nature we have.

Quote:

Robert: Then why are you still living for yourself?

You don't know him, Robert, so you don't know what he lives for-- whether for Christ, the spreading of the gospel, or just for himself.

Not all Christians live for themselves-- many are primarily motivated to live for Christ and for others-- and therefore it is wrong to make a blanket accusation that a particular individual whom you don't even know is "still living for themselves."

It would be best to ask people what their motivations are for living. You might be happily surprised.

[John317]

Quote:

Robert: Okay, then love your neighbor as you love yourself. Get busy....Oh, you still have your stuff! Hmmm...you love self, huh?

Case closed

Not so fast, Robert. It's a false gospel that requires people to have nothing. Talk about righteousness by works!

God wants us to love ourselves in the correct way. Which way is that? Acknowledging that Christ's sacrifice for us caused our value to increase. We are bought with a price. Christ paid a huge amount for us. He wouldn't do that for a worthless piece of meat. Each of us is worth an infinite cost to God. If we truly recognize this and understand fully what it means, we will certainly not dislike or hate ourselves, but we will take care of ourselves as people for whom the Creator Himself died to preserve. We will also treat others as we want to be treated because we'll realize that God loves everyone the same as He loves us.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

that didnt really answer my question about the ""life and that more abundantly" that i was promised?"

You'll have a mansion in heaven....If you think Christ is speaking of here a lot of believers went to the graves dirt poor.

[pnattmbtc]

p:When one is born again, the law is written on the heart and mind, right? Being "bent-to-self" applies to the flesh, not the mind, right? We are to receive the "mind of Christ," a mind which was not bent to self. Christ took the same nature we have.

R:Then why are you still living for yourself?

What kind of response is this? Which of the statements I made are you disagreeing with?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:Your idea is that to be under grace requires disobedience?

R:Okay, then love your neighbor as you love yourself. Get busy....Oh, you still have your stuff! Hmmm...you love self, huh?

Case closed.

Ok what? This was a yes/no question. "Ok" isn't an answer. Please respond to the question.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Regarding Christ's not living or planning for himself, that's the life of any Christian. No one who lives for self would be happy in heaven. Do you disagree?

R:Then you won't be happy....It took a lot of planning for that car, home, and the goodies you have in that home. It takes a lot of self-love to work everyday so you can have even more wealth. That's iniquity...so according to your own legalistic theology you can kiss haven goodbye!

This is, again, not responsive to the question. Are you disagreeing? Is it your contention that those who live for self will be happy in heaven?

You're not being responsive to any of these questions.