What is the Gospel?

[pnattmbtc]

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To follow Christ in His denial of self (self-interests, self-seeking, self-love, etc) is to refrain from living for your own interests and instead live for the interest of those around you.

Right. This is what I've been saying. Someone who follows Christ would be happy in heaven, because these are the principles of heaven. Someone who lives by contrary principles, the principles involved in "me first," wouldn't be happy in heaven. Right?

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If all of us did this there would be no poverty, but since we live in a world dominated with the principle of self those who refuse to participate in its system will experience poverty.

It depends upon what you mean by this. If you mean that any person who is a follower of Christ will live beneath the poverty line, living "under a bridge," this isn't true. Jesus Christ Himself, for much of His life, lived in a home and had a job.

Consider someone who works for the SDA denomination here in the U.S, a pastor, say. None of these experience poverty as you think of it, do they? So anyone who works for the denomination, according to what you've been saying, would not be refusing to participate in the system of the world. Maybe this is what you believe, I don't know.

[Robert]

Consider someone who works for the SDA denomination here in the U.S, a pastor, say. None of these experience poverty as you think of it, do they?

The SDA denomination invests money in the stock market....This is self-seeking.

I don't know why you play ignorant, pnattmbtc, it's really simply: "where you have self you have sin"!

Maybe I can help you, again:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

It doesn't say, "You will have that love which seeks her own first and then another's wealth." [DA 439]

Just like that law doesn't say, "You will love your neighbor and love yourself."

What you and many other are attempting to do is to take God's law, which is as Holy as God is Himself, and water it down to rules that are acceptable to you. Those who can't keep you ignore.

[Robert]

Jesus Christ Himself, for much of His life, lived in a home and had a job.

A job is one you are paid for work....Jesus helped His step-father, but there's no record Jesus received wages.

Yes, Jesus lived in His step-father's home, but it wasn't His...it was His step-fathers. Nothing is wrong with receiving a gift from another person...what's wrong is to gain it though your own self-seeking.

[pnattmbtc]

What you and many other are attempting to do is to take God's law, which is as Holy as God is Himself, and water it down to rules that are acceptable to you. Those who can't keep you ignore.

I don't think I've said a word about God's law, let alone watering it down to rules. It doesn't seem to me that you are listening to what I've been saying, although I've repeated it many, many times.

What I've said is that to be happy in heaven one needs to be in harmony with God and His principles (the principles of agape). Do you disagree?

[Robert]

What I've said is that to be happy in heaven one needs to be in harmony with God and His principles (the principles of agape). Do you disagree?

If your mind is in harmony with God's agape, but in reality you end up serving your natural bent-to-self here on earth, yes, you will be happy in heaven.

[pnattmbtc]

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Jesus Christ Himself, for much of His life, lived in a home and had a job.

A job is one you are paid....Jesus helped His step-father. There's no record Jesus received wages.

There's no record that Jesus received wages?! Is there a record that Jesus every took a bath? What sort of comment is this?

Would it have been a sin if Jesus received wages for work that He did?

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Yes, Jesus lived in His step-father's home, but it wasn't His...it was His step-fathers.

Yes, you called this a damnable lie to refer to this as Jesus' home. I asked you, if you had a child, and the child was asked by a playmate where the child lived, and responded, "My home is down the block," you would call that a "damnable lie." I don't think you responded.

Let's take this further. You're saying it wasn't Jesus' home because He didn't pay for it, someone else did. So if you are married, and your wife is a house wife, and you the mortgage, then by your logic, she shouldn't refer to the home as hers, since you paid for it, not her. For her to refer to "my home" would be "a damnable lie."

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Nothing is wrong with receiving a gift from another person...what's wrong is to gain it though your own self-seeking.

It's OK to receive something from someone else as a gift, but not to work for it. Is that what you are saying? Or is it OK to work for wages, provided one isn't motivated for so doing by self seeking? (or is that not possible?)

[Robert]

Would it have been a sin if Jesus received wages for work that He did?

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

Everything Jesus did, including if He received wages for a job, was for the benefit of others and not His own use. Jesus, says the Bible, was "servant of all". Nothing in His life was done for His own self-interests. We, on the other, fall short of this....

[pnattmbtc]

What I've said is that to be happy in heaven one needs to be in harmony with God and His principles (the principles of agape). Do you disagree?

R:If your mind is in harmony with God's agape, but in reality you end up serving your natural bent-to-self here on earth, yes, you will be happy in heaven.

[pnattmbtc]

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

Everything Jesus did, including if He received wages for a job, was for the benefit of others and not His own use. Jesus, says the Bible, was "servant of all". Nothing in His life was done for His own self-interests.

So there's no problem in working for wages, as long as one doesn't do so for one's own self-interests, right? Also, one should not live for self, but for others (i.e., God and one's fellow). This is the principle of heaven, and those who live by this principle would be happy in heaven. Do you disagree? Or are you saying it's OK to live according to the principle of "me first" and be happy in heaven, provided your mind is in harmony with agape (which means what?).

[Robert]

If your mind is in harmony with God's agape, but in reality you end up serving your natural bent-to-self here on earth, is your mind really in harmony with God's agape?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

Everything Jesus did, including if He received wages for a job, was for the benefit of others and not His own use. Jesus, says the Bible, was "servant of all". Nothing in His life was done for His own self-interests.

So there's no problem in working for wages, as long as one doesn't do so for one's own self-interests, right?

According to the spirit of the law, which is love your neighbor as yourself, yes....

[pnattmbtc]

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14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? (James 2:14-16)

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17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. (1 John 3:17-18)

Aren't these texts dealing with precisely the issue of claiming to be in harmony with God's principles (agape), but, in reality, serving self?

R:Okay, let's go with your theology.

I quoted James and John. What do you think they're saying?

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If that's the case then you are lost because you are still bent to self.

Because of having a sinful nature, which Christ also took. So He would be lost too, by this logic.

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Unless you share Christ's poverty (not unless someone has given you your wealth) you are serving yourself. Agape your neighbor instead....

Ok, so this is back to the idea that working is sin? The only way one can have money is if it given to Him? So if Christ received wages while working as a carpenter, He sinned?

You keep going back and forth!

Anyway, please answer what you think James and John are saying.

[pnattmbtc]

p:So there's no problem in working for wages, as long as one doesn't do so for one's own self-interests, right?

R:According to the spirit of the law, which is love your neighbor as yourself, yes....

Then there's no reason for you to bring up having wealth, unless you received it as a gift. One could receive wealth as a gift with a self-seeking spirit just as much as by working for it. The issue is self-seeking, not how one obtains wealth (provided one isn't doing something immoral, like lying, to do so).

[Robert]

Ok, so this is back to the idea that working is sin? The only way one can have money is if it given to Him? So if Christ received wages while working as a carpenter, He sinned?

You keep going back and forth!

Never said that....You get easily confused because agape is so different then our earthly love of self.

If I work to build my wealth I am sinning.....Agape is the exact opposite of our self-seeking.

"Agape...is not self-seeking" 1 Cor 13:5

[Robert]

Because of having a sinful nature, which Christ also took. So He would be lost too, by this logic.

Once again, you are massively confused.

Christ didn't HAVE a sinful nature...it wasn't His by native right. He assumed us by taking humanity into Himself. It was never His nature.

It's like the Holy Spirit who is in you. Does He become polluted because of your sinful nature? No. Why? He remains Himself while living in you.

You are born bent to self and it is seen in your life daily. You fall short of God's agape love as seen in the life of Christ.

[Robert]

I quoted James and John. What do you think they're saying?

They are saying that if your faith is in Christ a change will be seen. On the other hand, the law, requires perfection (perfect agape love).

Rom 3:2o Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin [the love of self]. ....28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

On the other hand James said,

4 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified , and not by faith only.

Note, James did not say works of the law. Case in point, Rahab:

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Rahab's faith was manifested in protecting the spies. She put her life on the line, but she also was a prostitute at that time. She also lied.

So she could never be justified by law because she was still a sinner bent to self. However, her actions proved her faith.

[pnattmbtc]

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Never said that....You get easily confused because agape is so different then our earthly love of self.

If I work to build my wealth I am sinning.....Agape is the exact opposite of our self-seeking.

"Agape...is not self-seeking" 1 Cor 13:5

You're still not being clear. Now you're reverting back, it sounds like, to if you receive wealth as a gift, that's ok, but if you work for it, that's not. But this isn't the issue. The issue is whether one is being self-centered or not, not whether or not one works to earn money.

[pnattmbtc]

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p:Because of having a sinful nature, which Christ also took. So He would be lost too, by this logic.

R:Once again, you are massively confused.

Christ didn't HAVE a sinful nature...it wasn't His by native right. He assumed us by taking humanity into Himself. It was never His nature.

I never said Christ "had" a sinful nature. I'm sure I haven't said anything on the subject of Christ's taking our sinful nature that you would disagree with.

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It's like the Holy Spirit who is in you. Does He become polluted because of your sinful nature? No. Why? He remains Himself while living in you.

This is an extremely poor analogy. Christ became an actual human being. The Holy Spirit is not and never has been a human being. Christ was not a foreign being living in a shell, but was an actual human being, as real as any other human being.

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You are born bent to self and it is seen in your life daily. You fall short of God's agape love as seen in the life of Christ.

Christ took the same nature that we have naturally, and in that nature condemned sin in the flesh. This was the theme of the 1888 message, or a theme. From Waggoner:

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One more point and then we can learn the entire lesson that we should learn from the fact that "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." How was it that Christ could be thus "compassed with infirmity" (Heb. 5:2) and still know no sin? Some may have thought, while reading thus far, that we were depreciating the character of Jesus by bringing Him down to the level of sinful man. On the contrary, we are simply exalting the "Divine power" of our blessed Saviour, who Himself voluntarily descended to the level of sinful man in order that He might exalt man to His own spotless purity, which He retained under the most adverse circumstances. His humanity only veiled His Divine nature, by which He was inseparably connected with the invisible God and which was more than able successfully to resist the weaknesses of the flesh. There was in His whole life a struggle. The flesh, moved upon by the enemy of all righteousness, would tend to sin, yet His Divine nature never for a moment harbored an evil desire nor did His Divine power for a moment waver. Having suffered in the flesh all that men can possibly suffer, He returned to the throne of the Father as spotless as when He left the courts of glory. When He lay in the tomb, under the power of death, "it was impossible that he should be holden of it," because he "knew no sin."

But someone will say, "I don't see any comfort in this for me. To be sure, I have an example, but I can't follow it, for I haven't the power that Christ had. He was God even while here on earth; I am but a man." Yes, but you may have the same power that He had if you want it. He was "compassed with infirmity," yet He "did no sin," because of the Divine power constantly dwelling within Him. Now listen to the inspired words of the apostle Paul and learn what it is our privilege to have...(Christ and His Righteousness)

At any rate, this is getting a bit off topic, again. My point has been that to be happy in heaven one must be in harmony with God and His principles. You seem to agree to a point, in that you say that one should be in harmony with agape in one's mind, but then you say it's OK if one's actions are contrary to this, which to me seems to be contradicting what John and James say:

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16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. (1 John 3:16-18)

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13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? (James 2:13-16)

I'm curious as to what you think John and James were trying to say here.

Jesus said, "as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he," but you seem to think that as a man thinketh in his heart, he's something else altogether. Specifically, you appear to have the idea that we can think apape in our heart but in our lives be serving self. If we are living to serve self, I don't understand how we could be happy in heaven. That makes no sense to me. There's only agape in heaven. How could a self-centered person by happy around only selfless beings?

[pnattmbtc]

p:I quoted James and John. What do you think they're saying?

R:They are saying that if your faith is in Christ a change will be seen. On the other hand, the law, requires perfection (perfect agape love).

[Robert]

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Never said that....You get easily confused because agape is so different then our earthly love of self.

If I work to build my wealth I am sinning.....Agape is the exact opposite of our self-seeking.

"Agape...is not self-seeking" 1 Cor 13:5

You're still not being clear.

I am, but you can't understand because agape is a foreign concept to you....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Rob

It's like the Holy Spirit who is in you. Does He become polluted because of your sinful nature? No. Why? He remains Himself while living in you.

This is an extremely poor analogy. Christ became an actual human being.

No, Christ remained Himself, God. He took upon Himself our humanity...but it wasn't His or He would be a sinner.

[Robert]

Jesus said, "as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he,"

[Robert]

If we wish to correctly understand the law, we should consider Christ.

If you look at the selfless life of Christ that's the fulfillment of the spirit of the law. This life you are failing to live and hence you fall short of the glory of God.

[Robert]

The law is not a sentient being. If anyone requires perfection, that would be God. The law is simply a record. It can't literally "require" anything.

God requires perfection....No sin (which is our bent to self) can be tolerated in heaven or it would quickly become like this world...a mess!

There are two ways that God has presented:

1] Accept Christ as our righteousness or

2] Keep the law.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

"those who follow Him must share His poverty."

but i cant find anywhere where it says this in the bible...

2 Corinthians 8:9

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.