What is the Gospel?

[Robert]

I'm not claiming to keep the law perfectly.

The law demands perfection. Perfection is living for others only, every second of your life, without one thought of self. If you fall short of this the law says you must die forever. So you can't be under law....never!

And, BTW, Paul never states that we keep the law. He says that we fall short of the glory of God (His agape love). That means we are never fully measuring up.

Now, the 144,000 I believe will fully mature, but that is not what saves them....To get there they must lose it all. Then all earthly systems and attachments will be cutoff...but as long as we are in a system based on iniquity we will never fully reflect Christ and hence our assurance cannot be based on our performance.....It must be based on what Christ did 2000 years ago in our humanity....

[Robert]

If we hate God and His principles (agape), we wouldn't be happy in heaven, regardless of what theology we have.

Yes...the converted mind does not hate God's agape....That doesn't mean that the person who loves God doesn't serve the flesh....That's Romans 7....All of us experience Rom 7 & 8

But there's no condemnation to those who are in Christ by faith.....period!

[karl]

It appears to me that the context of being perfect (as God is perfect) is that of loving and benefitting others. It's not so much a religion of avoiding doing the wrong things to others, but one of doing good things for others.

[SivartM]

You're missing my point. My point is that you should not be pointing fingers at others and calling them dogs (seriously?) and hypocrites because you think you know their inner characters like Jesus does. No matter what you say, if you throw a stone, then you think you're perfect.

[Overaged]

I thought this topic was called "What Is The Gospel?"

[SivartM]

Well, everyone already seems to know the answer to that. Never mind that all their answers are different.

[Robert]

true....

[Robert]

I thought this topic was called "What Is The Gospel?"

It is...but the gospel is not what Christ does in you. That's the fruit of accepting the gospel, which is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ as the Son of Man and the Son of God.

The problem is that most Christians add the fruit to the gospel, which is a false gospel. "In Christ" I have heaven full and complete now and in the judgment. While I remain "in Him" I bear fruit....That's the fruit of the gospel...that which witnesses our faith in the doing and dying of Christ....

Before one can accept the gospel all self-confidence must be slammed into the dust of the ground. This is the function of the law...it is to put the glory of men in dust so that He accepts the gift...the gospel. Otherwise he will pollute the pure gospel with legalism....

[Robert]

So take your natural bent-to-self, straighten it out, and only live for those around you with no thoughts of yourself. The result? Poverty in world based in iniquity!!!!

Now the early church experienced agape, even if only for a short time. Read Acts chapter 4....They had all things in common, not because some Socialist had a gun pointed at their heads, but because God's Spirit was poured out among them. The result? No poverty among them....Everyone living for others....This is what will happen after the gospel is restored and the shaking takes place. That's what Rev 12:17 is speaking of...not folks keeping rules outwardly....

[Robert]

You're missing my point. My point is that you should not be pointing fingers at others and calling them dogs (seriously?) .

I didn't .... (although I have in the past)....I usually use legalist. Paul called the Judaizers, who were Jews who placed their faith in Christ, but mixed the gospel (how one is saved) with salvation by law. In other words they insisted on belief in Christ plus the keeping of the law in order to be saved.....

That's a dog...a wolf in sheep's clothing....In fact Paul called one of them a "white washed wall" (referring probably to white washed tomb)....

Legalism is looking good on the outside...keeping the rules of your church in order to gain heaven.

With the true gospel you have heaven by the doing and dying of Christ. As you begin to gain the assurance of salvation your faith grows and you begin to reflect Christ more....

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I thought this topic was called "What Is The Gospel?"

It is...but the gospel is not what Christ does in you. That's the fruit of accepting the gospel, which is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ as the Son of Man and the Son of God.

The problem is that most Christians add the fruit to the gospel, which is a false gospel. "In Christ" I have heaven full and complete now and in the judgment. While I remain "in Him" I bear fruit....That's the fruit of the gospel...that which witnesses our faith in the doing and dying of Christ....

Before one can accept the gospel all self-confidence must be slammed into the dust of the ground. This is the function of the law...it is to put the glory of men in dust so that He accepts the gift...the gospel. Otherwise he will pollute the pure gospel with legalism....

No "self-confidence" will be involved when we give all the credit and all the glory to Jesus for what He does in us. (2 Cor 5:17) tells us that if anyone is in Christ, ALL THINGS will become new. This is the gospel. The redemption of fallen mankind, from the grip of sin, and into His marvellous Light. What Christ does in us is part of the gospel. For eg. when the world sees Christians getting along well and loving one another, the Bible tells us that "the world will know we have been with Him;" so how can we say that 'what we do is not a part of the gospel?" The gospel is "good news" and there is no good news if Jesus does not accomplish something in us.

[karl]

How did the fact that Christ transforms rebels to loyal subjects of His kingdom get excluded from the Gospel, Robert?

In the great Gospel commission Jesus says, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo , I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

[Robert]

No "self-confidence" will be involved when we give all the credit and all the glory to Jesus for what He does in us. (2 Cor 5:17) tells us that if anyone is in Christ, ALL THINGS will become new. This is the gospel.

Question:

Does 2 Cor 5:17 refer to our humanity assumed through the incarnation or you and me as I write?

Rob

[Robert]

Both the Bible and EGW states that we are complete "in Christ" without anything that God does in us. That's the gospel. The moment you add what God does in you now to the completeness that you already have "in Christ" you are perverting the gospel. You are then in good company with both the Judaizers of old and modern day Catholicism.

[phkrause]

Both the Bible and EGW states that we are complete "in Christ" without anything that God does in us. That's the gospel. The moment you add what God does in you now to the completeness that you already have "in Christ" you are perverting the gospel. You are then in good company with both the Judaizers old and modern day Catholicism.

You might be right about Catholicism, and Christianity as a whole, but Jews don't care what Christ has done for, through or around them.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Both the Bible and EGW states that we are complete "in Christ" without anything that God does in us. That's the gospel. The moment you add what God does in you now to the completeness that you already have "in Christ" you are perverting the gospel. You are then in good company with both the Judaizers old and modern day Catholicism.

You might be right about Catholicism, and Christianity as a whole, but Jews don't care what Christ has done for, through or around them.

Keep in mind that a Judaizer is not the same as a Pharisee, even though they have similar roots. A Judaizer was a Jew who had accepted Christ, but insisted that one had to fully comply with the law of God to be saved.

Here's an example: Acts 15

1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised [one of the many requirements from the book of the law], according to the law of Moses,you cannot be saved." ....5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

Note that these Jews were believers...they had accepted Christ, but they still believed that one had to obey the law in order to make it to heaven. So their formula was that one was saved from his past sins through justification by faith, but now through sanctification one must become perfect in Christ in order to be saved.

Where as the real gospel tell us that "in Christ" we are complete. This gives us peace with God. No longer are we concerned about our ticket to heaven. We have it in Christ. As we remain in Him by faith we bear fruit. The fruit is the evidence of our faith, not the means. Just keep in mind believers bear different amounts of fruit....Some thirty-fold, some sixty and some one hundred....

Rob

[phkrause]

You might be right about Catholicism, and Christianity as a whole, but Jews don't care what Christ has done for, through or around them.

Keep in mind that a Judaizer is not the same as a Pharisee, even though they have similar roots. A Judaizer was a Jew who had accepted Christ, but insisted that one had to fully comply with the law of God to be saved.

Here's an example: Acts 15

1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised [one of the many requirements from the book of the law], according to the law of Moses,you cannot be saved." ....5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

Note that these Jews were believers...they had accepted Christ, but they stilled believed that one had to obey the law in order to make it to heaven. So their formula was one was saved from his past sins through justification by faith, but now through sanctification one must become perfect in order to be saved.

Where as the real gospel tell us that "in Christ" we are complete. This gives us peace with God. No longer are we concerned about our ticket to heaven. We have it in Christ. As we remain in Him by faith we bear fruit. The fruit is the evidence of our faith, not the means. Just keep in mind believers bear different amounts of fruit....Some thirty-fold, some sixty and some one hundred....

Rob

I understand what your saying but from what I understand that as the Jew would except Christ he was really no longer a Jew but a Christian at that point! NO! I mean the Bible doesn't say that but that was what happen!

[pnattmbtc]

I didn't .... (although I have in the past)....I usually use legalist. Paul called the Judaizers, who were Jews who placed their faith in Christ, but mixed the gospel (how one is saved) with salvation by law.

[pnattmbtc]

Our understanding of what the Gospel is depends upon what we think the problem that needs to be solved is. This comes across in the explanations being given.

For example, Roberts sees our problem as being a legal one involving our position. The Gospel is that Christ fixed this problem by taking humanity into Himself, submitting to the penalty of the law after perfectly keeping it, so that we can, in Him, be perfectly positioned, escaping the doom of the law.

Another is karl, who sees our problem in terms of needing to be healed. Christ, through the atonement, provides healing from sin for all who desire it.

While agreeing with karl (and he may agree with me here as well), I see our problem as being primarily one involving God's character. The Gospel is "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." Jesus Christ, by revealing God, provided the means by which man can be set right and kept right with God.

[Robert]

But Paul loved those he was talking to, and this came through in his writings

Gal 5:10 The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be....12 As for those agitators [Judaizers], I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

But he opposed legalists....

[Robert]

Roberts sees our problem as being a legal one involving our position.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our LORD Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. 6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our LORD Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. [To make matters worse] But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD.

[Overaged]

[mrsducky]

Amen!

[karl]

While agreeing with karl (and he may agree with me here as well), I see our problem as being primarily one involving God's character. The Gospel is "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." Jesus Christ, by revealing God, provided the means by which man can be set right and kept right with God.

Yes, I agree that this is the mcchanism by which we are healed. We are reconciled/brought back into relationship when we respond to the wooing of Christ (justification) and it is in His presence (relationship) that the healing takes place (sanctification.)

"And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever."