What is the Gospel?

[Guest]

What makes the SDA church unique is this emphasis on God's character.

I beg to differ.

What makes the SDA church different, or SHOULD make the SDA church different is that we not only 'profess' to keep the Commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev.12:17) but that we actually DO. We are the Kingdom of Heaven on earth today (for crying out loud) and we are behaving just as any other Christian denomination is behaving. So instead of being as God designed us to be we are being just like the kingdom of the world actually is. How sad. It is going to change soon with the 'shaking', I hope you are up for this.

You're both wrong. The seventh day Baptists keep all ten, and there are others as well. What separates us from all other denominations is our understanding of the sanctuary. And musicman, unless I am mistaken, you have even corrupted this doctrine by forging your own path, and following your own ideas. So you don't really have anything in common with SDAs other than the seventh day. Perhaps the "seventh day Baptists", or the "seventh day Church of God" would accept your new teachings.

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor

We cannot be saved by....

Your belief that everyone will be saved, conflicts with what you are trying to say here. Unless you have changed your theology?

I said "We cannot be saved by putting a "Jesus" patch on our old suit. "New wine" does not mix well with "old wine," as hard as SDAs and Messianic Jews try to mix them and make them fit. That ain't conversion. Jesus said we should stop eating the manna, and start eating the living bread which He provides. And there He is talking about conversion and His gospel message."

I see no conflict, because everyone will convert, so why not do it sooner than later. That will make life much better.

[Musicman1228]

I said "We cannot be saved by putting a "Jesus" patch on our old suit. "New wine" does not mix well with "old wine," as hard as SDAs and Messianic Jews try to mix them and make them fit. That ain't conversion. Jesus said we should stop eating the manna, and start eating the living bread which He provides. And there He is talking about conversion and His gospel message."

I see no conflict, because everyone will convert, so why not do it sooner than later. That will make life much better.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

What makes the SDA church unique is this emphasis on God's character.

I beg to differ.

What makes the SDA church different, or SHOULD make the SDA church different is that we not only 'profess' to keep the Commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev.12:17) but that we actually DO. We are the Kingdom of Heaven on earth today (for crying out loud) and we are behaving just as any other Christian denomination is behaving. So instead of being as God designed us to be we are being just like the kingdom of the world actually is. How sad. It is going to change soon with the 'shaking', I hope you are up for this.

You're both wrong. The seventh day Baptists keep all ten, and there are others as well. What separates us from all other denominations is our understanding of the sanctuary. And musicman, unless I am mistaken, you have even corrupted this doctrine by forging your own path, and following your own ideas. So you don't really have anything in common with SDAs other than the seventh day. Perhaps the "seventh day Baptists", or the "seventh day Church of God" would accept your new teachings.

To show I was wrong, you would need to quote some other denomination which emphasizes God's character. You have made no attempt to do so.

The whole Great Controversy is in regards to God's character. Misrepresenting God's character is how Satan deceived God and man. For example:

Quote:

Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men.(DA 21)

In order to counteract this deception, God sent His Son:

Quote:

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (ibid. 22)

This plan is described as the "whole purpose" of Christ's earthly mission:

Quote:

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90)

The following points out how Christ made it possible for man to be set right with God:

Quote:

The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. (ibid.)

This points out that the "only way" that man could be set right (aka justified) and kept right (aka sanctified) was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes (see John 1:18). Christ revealed the Father "that men might have salvation."

The sanctuary service is a means to understand this mission of Christ, the revelation of the Father.

[wayfinder]

The Seventh-day Baptists do not keep all ten. The only difference between a SDB and a Baptist is the SDB go to church on the seventh day, after that it is just another day, it is not the Sabbath, day of rest; therefore they break the fourth commandment as well as the first, you break one the covenant is broken.

[Musicman1228]

pnattmbtc,

I agree with you that the Sanctuary Service is critical to understanding how the plan of salvation works. This is one of the reasons that I believe that the operation of the Sanctuary is different thatnthe concept of salvation as promoted by Paul. Paul does not speak of the role of High Priest in any of his writings (he mentions the High Priest, but not Jesus' role as the High Priest). One of the reasons I am sure that Paul was not the author of Hebrews is that in the 13 chapters of the book the High Priest is mentioned 16 times.

The other very interesting thing that I have found is that the Feasts of Israel beginning with Passover and ending with the Day of Atonement gives some deep perspective on how the events of the end of time will play out. Look at them again in Lev.23 from the perspective of end time events and then lets compare notes. I'd like to see if you see some of the same things I see given this view point.

[Dr. Rich]

pnatt.. wrote: "I used "un-Christian-like" and "un-Christ-like" as synonyms." Ok, then I would agree with you, but to me Christian like Character is the opposite of being a Christ like Character. The Christian religion is one of the 7 blasphemous heads on the first beast of Revelation 13. Someone please tell me what makes them evil?

Why keep all ten of the commandments IF you are saved by grace anyway?

As for what oldsailor wrote, yes, I suppose he could say that everyone will be converted--that is if 'everyone' means those who are not burned up by their second death.

[Guest]

Pnatt you are wrong in a totally different area than MM. It may not be as bad as the road he's on, I don't know. And perhaps you are right about SDAs putting emphasis on God's character. But your belief butchers the true character of God as bad or worse than any group of people I've ever seen. You believe that God will not do what He plainly says he will in the Bible, and what's more, you don't believe He did the things that the Bible plainly says He did do. This is a gross spiritualization of plain literal texts, and is one of Satan's mightiest weapons against God's SDA people.

So you believe that everywhere in the Bible where it says God did something, (namely destroy) or will do something, (destroy)that it is all one big misunderstanding. And has been misunderstood all down through the ages by men of God. Why would God allow Satan to use the Bible of all things to mis-align his character? And why would he have sister White write plainly things that don't really mean what they say? But this is what you believe.

From a friend of mine:

Spiritualized Assault During the Early 20th Century

There were a flood of apostasies from the church during the early part of the 20th century. Jones, Waggoner, Conradi and Ballenger just to name a few. But other figures who remained in the church also fell under the spell of spiritualized view.......

Only a completely ignorant person would suggest that Adventism has not been attacked with spiritualised views of Scripture. It is the chief weapon in Satan’s arsenal to undermine truth. We have been attacked again and again. In 1971 Newsweek wrote an article on movements within the Adventist church to “rid itself of an exaggerated Biblical literalism.” The article stated that according to the liberals “you will find few seminary professors who admit to the 6000 year theory, and many Adventists no longer believe that the days of creation were each 24 hours long.” The liberals also charge that “Adventists traditionally have placed too literal an interpretation on the second coming-thinking it was just around the corner-and failed to recognize the power of that doctrine to motivate Christians to change the world around them.”

In my theological studies at Avondale, a literal six day creation was ridiculed, as was Christian perfection; the literal human nature of Christ; an emphasis on the nearness of Christ’s coming; the references to the Remnant and Babylon, the significance of the Investigative Judgment; all were ridiculed, undermined and in some cases debunked. I know this to be fact because I was there and I witnessed it. Every last doctrine was attacked in some way.

The book Questions on Doctrine opened the flood gate of spiritualized views, both with the Godhead and the Nature of Christ. Once this door opened, there could be no stopping it. And it has not been stopped. I witnessed the overwhelming levels of the spiritualisation of Adventism in my training at Avondale College.

In seeking to address the spiritualisation of the Sanctuary doctrine, Pr George Burnside makes this observation:

One speaks of a “spiritual sanctuary of heaven rather than the literal visible one.” He ridicules the idea of a temple in heaven having walls, or furniture. This raises a question. What is a temple’? What is an immaterial temple? What are the “many mansion,” Christ spoke about in John 14:1-3. Are the mansions only symbols too? What is the “holy city,” New Jerusalem? Is that too but a symbol? The “great city, the Holy Jerusalem, has walls. If the temple does not have walls, does the holy city have walls? “The wall of the city had twelve foundations.” Revelation 21:14. Is this too, only a symbol, a mere airy fiction? If the “city, which hath foundations,” Hebrews 11:10, is real, why not the temple? How can you have a temple without walls? What is it? Away with such airy floating feathery fictions! Christ is real. Heaven is real. Our Lord’s return will be real. The resurrection of the saints will be real. The New Jerusalem is to be real. The temple of God is real. The redeemed will be real. They will eat and drink in the Father’s Kingdom. “They shall build houses, and inhabit them, and they shall plant vineyards and eat the fruit of them.” Isaiah 65:21. Are these things too, mere “symbols” or shadows? Will these houses in the Glory land have walls? If so, why not a heavenly temple?

[wayfinder]

Romans 3:5 NAS

But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say ? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)

Paul is saying here, in a backward way, that if God were to inflict wrath He would demonstrate unrighteousness.

Romans 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man ; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Paul here says that God directed His wrath at Jesus, there by, saving us from the Wrath of God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand ; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance ;

4 and perseverance, proven character ; and proven character, hope ;

5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

This peace, Paul is proposing, is peace between God and sinful man. Christ died so God would not be forced to demonstrate unrighteousness by inflicting His wrath on sinful flesh.

[Dr. Rich]

Isaiah 65 is NOT about heaven, but what God would do for Israel IF they remained or became righteous here on this earth. Read it and you will see what I mean. (people still die in this picture)

However, I do see where you are coming from. If the Sanctuary Service(s) were a picture of what was to happen, then let's do some deep research on them.

[Twilight]

What we must do is exchange our sinful human nature for the Divine nature.

I agree.

It seems to me that this is a key verse:

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We are by nature of the flesh.

But when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a new nature is imparted to us.

I think that if we believed this, our sanctification would be much quicker and simpler.

But we also know that we have to "partake", which means a continual "feeding" on the Word.

Mark

[Twilight]

That Christ took our sinful nature is clear from His teaching that we should deny our self, take up our cross, and *follow* Him. If He did not deny Himself, then how can we follow Him? It is because He took a sinful nature that He needed to deny Himself.

Not so.

Jesus denied his Divine nature, not his sinful nature.

He did not have a sinful nature.

When Jesus was born, He was not born like us, He was born "born again".

Jesus had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from conception.

Jesus was without sin.

[Robert]

"The Good News is about God’s Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 1:3 NCV

The good news is that "in Christ" my old life, indwelt with my bent-to-self, was defeated and came to and end. Hence there is no condemnation to those who have received this truth. We are complete "in Him"!

Therefore the good news is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ as the Son of God and the Son of mankind, period! At the incarnation Christ's deity was mysteriously combined with our fallen life from Adam. For thirty something years Christ continuously defeated sin in the flesh and finally on the cross He, through God the Father, executed indwelling sin.

At the resurrection Christ took a glorified humanity to heaven free from our bent-to-self and mortality. This life He presents before God's law. By faith and repentance we remain "in Christ". Hence, even though we are imperfect in these bodies, we are perfect "in Christ". That's the gospel.

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God’s Word. In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in Him.” [FW 107]

[Robert]

When Jesus was born, He was not born like us, He was born "born again".

When we are born again a change takes place in our minds. Now we agree with God's agape instead of siding with Lucifer's iniquity. But, we still have sin (the love of self, our bent to self) indwelling in our humanity.

As to Christ....If Christ didn't take our fallen life into Himself then your old life didn't die in the humanity of Christ and hence you stand cursed under the law.

Christ, at the incarnation, took our life into Himself. His divinity was not affected by this. He, Jesus as God, remained Himself. He was without sin! But, the humanity that Christ assumed at the incarnation was our fallen life from Adam. Since we all share Adam's life we were all "in Christ" at the incarnation.

When that humanity died on the cross, we died too. Hence the law is satisfied and we stand justified by the doing and dying of Christ.

Since Christ remained Himself the fallen humanity He assumed did not make Him as sinner. This is opposite what is true of us. We are indwelt by sin and this, without sinning outwardly, makes us sinners.

[Robert]

Since Christ remained Himself the fallen humanity He assumed did not make Him as sinner. This is opposite what is true of us. We are indwelt by sin and this, without sinning outwardly, makes us sinners.

Here's more proof:

The Holy Spirit is the third part of the God-head. Hence Father, Son and Holy Spirit. His Deity resides in the believer, right? Yet the believer still retains a sinful nature. How can the Holy Spirit reside in sinful flesh and not be affected?

Simple: He remains Himself and you remain yourself. The two are mysteriously blended, but remain separate and distinct. He doesn't become you and neither do you become Him. Yes, as you give Him permission, He works through you to override your nature, but He isn't you. If He is you then you are God.

Now reverse this and you can see why Christ as God could assume our fallen lives indwelt with sin and yet not be affected.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

pnatt.. wrote: "I used "un-Christian-like" and "un-Christ-like" as synonyms." Ok, then I would agree with you, but to me Christian like Character is the opposite of being a Christ like Character. The Christian religion is one of the 7 blasphemous heads on the first beast of Revelation 13. Someone please tell me what makes them evil?

You said that Christ treated the woman in an un-Christian-like way. If "Christian-like" is the opposite of "Christ-like," then you are saying that Christ treated the woman well. That's hardly a proof that He is not the Savior of all. As I pointed out, John points out twice that Jesus is the "Savior of the world."

Quote:

Why keep all ten of the commandments IF you are saved by grace anyway?

No one is suggesting this, right?

The point I've been making is that our conception of God is the foundation of all we do and think. If our idea of God is totally wrong, how can we obey Him? We can't. We'll be like the Pharisees, thinking we're obeying, when we're doing the direct opposite of God's will.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Pnatt you are wrong in a totally different area than MM. It may not be as bad as the road he's on, I don't know. And perhaps you are right about SDAs putting emphasis on God's character. But your belief butchers the true character of God as bad or worse than any group of people I've ever seen. You believe that God will not do what He plainly says he will in the Bible, and what's more, you don't believe He did the things that the Bible plainly says He did do. This is a gross spiritualization of plain literal texts, and is one of Satan's mightiest weapons against God's SDA people.

Richard, you've not responded to any point I've made. I've presented a cogent argument, with supporting quotes, from our official web site and from Ellen White. All you can say is, "you're wrong." This is because there is nothing wrong in what I wrote.

Please confine yourself this topic and comments I've made in this topic. I've asked you on many occasions to summarize my view in a way that I would agree with it, and you've refused to do so. You've never been able to correctly represent my view, so please keep silent regarding it, rather than speaking up and misrepresenting it. Please confine yourself to what I've written in this topic. Please quote what I've written. Statements that "you're wrong" with no evidence are pointless.

Present some sort of argument with evidence.

Again, there's no fault to what I wrote. I'll repost what I wrote for your convenience.

[pnattmbtc]

The whole Great Controversy is in regards to God's character. Misrepresenting God's character is how Satan deceived God and man. For example:

Quote:

Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men.(DA 21)

In order to counteract this deception, God sent His Son:

Quote:

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (ibid. 22)

This plan is described as the "whole purpose" of Christ's earthly mission:

Quote:

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90)

The following points out how Christ made it possible for man to be set right with God:

Quote:

The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. (ibid.)

This points out that the "only way" that man could be set right (aka justified) and kept right (aka sanctified) was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes (see John 1:18). Christ revealed the Father "that men might have salvation."

The sanctuary service is a means to understand this mission of Christ, the revelation of the Father.

[karl]

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Romans 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man ; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Paul here says that God directed His wrath at Jesus, there by, saving us from the Wrath of God.

This is a poor translation. The KJV is better:

Quote:

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Young's also is fine:

Quote:

5and the hope doth not make ashamed, because the love of God hath been poured forth in our hearts through the Holy Spirit that hath been given to us.

6For in our being still ailing, Christ in due time did die for the impious;

7for scarcely for a righteous man will any one die, for for the good man perhaps some one also doth dare to die;

8and God doth commend His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;

9much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;

The Greek says "wrath," not "wrath of God." "of God" was added.

What Paul is saying is that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, demonstrating His great love for us, which is just what we needed. Because of our misunderstanding of God's character, we need a demonstration of the truth. This theme appears several times in Romans.

[Musicman1228]

If Jesus Christ died for the ungodly then everything that is defined by the Sanctuary Service and the High Priest in the OT is not true.

[pnattmbtc]

p:That Christ took our sinful nature is clear from His teaching that we should deny our self, take up our cross, and *follow* Him. If He did not deny Himself, then how can we follow Him? It is because He took a sinful nature that He needed to deny Himself.

T:Not so.

Jesus denied his Divine nature, not his sinful nature.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.(Mark 2:17)

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

We are indwelt by sin and this, without sinning outwardly, makes us sinners.

This is the doctrine of original sin ....We are not guilty of sinning because Adam sinned. The soul that sinneth - it shall die.

[Robert]

If Jesus Christ died for the ungodly....

If?

Remember that EGW quote? "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

Unless you are living Christ's life of self-denial you are ungodly. If Christ didn't die for you there's no hope. You are cursed under law.