Ariz. Governor Signs Immigration Enforcement Bill

[SivartM]

Thank you, pkrause. I hope I'm not as obnoxious as I sound to some people. :)

[phkrause]

Thank you, pkrause. I hope I'm not as obnoxious as I sound to some people.

No your not but I can tell that you are young, which in itself is not a bad thing. And than as we get older, we don't get any better either.

pk

[Woody]

Perhaps I am a young old but I think he is an old young.

[Dr. Shane]

No, illegally entering a country is an international crime, legally punishable by death on-the-spot in some circumstances.

Under what circumstances?

No crime is punishable by death on-the-spot in the US. We have a system of justice with judges and juries. Border Patrol agents are allowed to use deadly force in some circumstances but it is not to punish the suspect. Border Patrol agents are not judges, jurors or executioners.

[Dr. Shane]

I consider illegal entry of my country just as egregious a crime as illegal entry of my home.

This demonstrates a serious lack of perspective. Migrant workers come here because there is work. Many of them work for minimum wage or are paid by production. In both circumstances, few Americans will do those jobs for the wages migrants will. Migrant workers allow American farmers to be competitive in a world market. We need them. If we didn't, the federal government would have done something a long time ago.

The problem with our boarder now is the drug violence. This is a separate issue from migrant workers. Some people confuse the two. Bill O'Reilly was confusing the two last night and Juan Williams had to straighten him out. Americans are being assaulted and killed by "illegals" but in most cases these illegals are connected to the drug cartels and often times the American victims are connected to the cartels too.

There are some migrant workers that cause problems but I have seen no evidence that migrant workers commit crimes with any greater frequency than Americans in the same economic class. The drug violence that is spilling over the border is a problem. It should not be confused with the migrant worker issue.

[karl]

OK forget about the magnitude of criminals illegal aliens are in the context of coming across the border. It IS legal for border patrol agents to kill these people if they flee an agent in the process of illegal entry.

Consider this:

The following were deaths that would not have occurred if our federal government took seriously the defense our borders.

Please take a moment to remember these fallen police officers:

-Deputy Loren Lily, Cobb County Sheriff’s Department

On December 31, 2006, illegal alien Joel Camacho Perea drove into Dep. Lily’s path on Powder springs Rd., hitting and killing him. Perea then fled the scene, he was later captured and charged with hit-and-run and vehicular homicide.

Dep. Lily, 41 who was an 18 year veteran of the Cobb County Sheriff’s Dept. had only been married to his wife Jamie for four months when he was killed. He left behind his wife and two godchildren.

-Deputy Brian Tephord, Broward County Sheriff’s Department

On November 12, 2006, Dep. Tephord made a routine traffic stop, while sitting in his patrol car, running the suspects’ information when Bahamian nationals Andre Delancey and Bernard Forbes opened fire on him. Dep. Tehord was taken to the hospital, where he died an hour later.

Dep. Tephord, 34 left behind a wife and three young children.

-Officer Tony Zeppetella, Oceanside Police Department

On June 13, 2003, previously deported gang member Adrian Camacho shot Officer Zeppetella 13 times during a routine traffic stop. Camacho received the death penalty for the murder.

Officer Zeppetella, 27 had been on the job for only one year when he was killed, and left behind a wife and a 6-month-old son.

-Detective Donald Young, Denver Police Department

On May 8, 2005, Det. Young was working at an event hall when he was shot to death in an unprovoked attack by Raul Garcia-Gomez.

The Mexican national had already been arrested three times when he murdered Det. Young, but because of Denver’s ‘sanctuary policy’ he was never reported to Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Garcia-Gomez actually worked in a restaurant owned by Denver Mayor Hickenlooper, who has been a longtime champion of sanctuary policies.

Det, Young, 43 left behind a wife and three children.

-Deputy Brandy Lyn Winfield, Marion County Sheriff’s Department

On October 14, 2004, Dep. Winfield was called to investigate a disabled vehicle, and had stopped to talk to two men on the side of the road. One of the men, Juan Carlos Cruz shot and killed him. Cruz who pleaded guilty to the murder has never expressed any remorse for his actions.

Dep. Winfield, 29 left behind a wife and two children.

-Officer Gregory Bailey, California Highway Patrol

On February 25, 2006, while performing a routine traffic stop, Domingo Esqueda hit and killed Officer Bailey. Esqueda’s BAC was three times the legal limit.

Officer Bailey, 36 was also a member of the California National Guard and had just returned from Iraq when he was killed. He left behind a wife and four children.

-Officer Vincent Owen D’Anna, Flint Police Department

On August 29, 2007, drunk-driving Mexican national Ramon Felix Pineda hit Officer D’Anna who was riding his motorcycle off-duty. Pineda actually dragged Officer D’Anna who was pinned under his car for some distance. Pineda jumped from his car and fled on foot, until he was apprehended by a citizen.

It was discovered that Pineda had been living in the U.S. for ten years.

Officer D’Anna was 26-years-old.

-Officer Nick Erfle, Phoenix Police Department

On September 18, 2007, Officer Erfle stopped a group of men who were obstructing traffic, one of the men, Mexican national Erik Martinez then shot and killed him. Martinez had been deported in 2006 for theft charges, but was able to easily re-enter the U.S.

Officer Erfle, 33 left behind a wife and two children.

-Officer Gary Gryder, Houston Police Department

On June 29, 2008, Officer Gryder was working traffic control when drunken Vietnamese national Hing Trong crashed through a construction barrier and ran him over. Officer Gryder was taken to the hospital where he later died of his injuries.

Several witnesses claimed that Trong was laughing as he was taken into custody.

Officer Gryder was a 23-year veteran of the Houston Police Dept., and left behind a wife and three children.

-Officer Andrew Widman, Fort Myers Police Department

On July 18, 2008, Officer Widman responded to a domestic disturbance call at a local convenience store, when Cuban national Abel Arango turned on Officer Widman and shot him to death.

The illegal alien who was then shot and killed by other officers, was actually ordered to be deported in 2000.

Officer Widman, 30 left behind a wife and three children.

-Officer Shane Figueroa, Phoenix Police Department

Officer Figueroa was responding to a “shots fired” call when his patrol car was hit by a pick-up truck driven by Mexican national Salvador Vivas-Diaz, who was drunk at the time. Vivas-Diaz had a history of DUI arrests and had been previously deported.

Officer Figueroa, 25 left behind a wife and a 3-month-old baby.

[Dr. Shane]

Looks like a lot of red Kool-aid there. I don't see any crimes there unique to illegal immigrants. Some of those are obviously gang related and as far as drunk driving goes... If Americans were not drunk driving we might have a complaint. I will listen to concerns about illegals driving drunk when all Americans stop driving drunk first.

[bonnie]

Looks like a lot of red Kool-aid there. I don't see any crimes there unique to illegal immigrants. Some of those are obviously gang related and as far as drunk driving goes... If Americans were not drunk driving we might have a complaint. I will listen to concerns about illegals driving drunk when all Americans stop driving drunk first.

We have many migrant workers here at harvest time. Whether you choose to listen to concerns or not is immaterial to the problems migrant workers can cause.

During harvest season our petty crimes and more escalate by a large number. Siphoning gas,theft of what might not be nailed down on your premises,drugs,meth labs,domestic abuse. I can leave my car in the driveway until harvest season.One of the very few times I left my car outside I lost a tank of gas.

Not new crimes and certainly committed by americans. That is little excuse to turn a blind eye to what the influx of illegals,those on a work visa etc create.

[bonnie]

Quote:

This demonstrates a serious lack of perspective. Migrant workers come here because there is work. Many of them work for minimum wage or are paid by production. In both circumstances, few Americans will do those jobs for the wages migrants will. Migrant workers allow American farmers to be competitive in a world market. We need them. If we didn't, the federal government would have done something a long time ago.

If that is true then the law needs to be changed or maybe they should apply for a work permit. Because something is economically adventages is no excuse for turning a blind eye.

Quote:

The problem with our boarder now is the drug violence. This is a separate issue from migrant workers. Some people confuse the two. Bill O'Reilly was confusing the two last night and Juan Williams had to straighten him out.

Most here understand the difference between a migrant worker and a drug cartel

Quote:

Americans are being assaulted and killed by "illegals" but in most cases these illegals are connected to the drug cartels and often times the American victims are connected to the cartels too.

And many times american victims are just that.Victims

Quote:

There are some migrant workers that cause problems but I have seen no evidence that migrant workers commit crimes with any greater frequency than Americans in the same economic class. The drug violence that is spilling over the border is a problem. It should not be confused with the migrant worker issue.

The migrant worker brings children/family and demands on our resources. This cuntry's resources are stretched to the breaking point.Not only financial but schools,housing medical.

[karl]

Quote:

Migrant workers allow American farmers to be competitive in a world market. We need them. If we didn't, the federal government would have done something a long time ago.

The government HAS done something a long time ago. It's called farm subsidy.

I picked summer produce for wages years ago in Portland, Oregon. My sister-in-law came from an entire family of migrant farm workers. They were citizens, not illegals.

[Dr. Shane]

During harvest season our petty crimes and more escalate by a large number. Siphoning gas,theft of what might not be nailed down on your premises,drugs,meth labs,domestic abuse.

These are crimes committed by the poor. Now that isn't an excuse, simply a reality. If we go into any ghetto area in an American metropolitan city we are going to find these types of crimes.

When migrant workers migrate to an area to work, the barrio goes with them. There is a certain percentage of them that are going to engage in this type of behavior. It has nothing to do with their legal status. Many migrant workers are in the country legally. They often travel in families and some of the family members do not live by the highest ethical standards. But that problem is found in poor neighborhoods across America.

Just a question. Let's say we kick every Mexican out of the country and poor Native Americans, or poor blacks, or poor Vietnamese or poor white folks become the new migrant workers. Do we expect any of these born-in-America populations to be less likely to commit petty crimes? Of course not! Why, because these crimes are common place in the poverty-stricken communities of America.

[bonnie]

Quote:

These are crimes committed by the poor. Now that isn't an excuse, simply a reality. If we go into any ghetto area in an American metropolitan city we are going to find these types of crimes.

Who makes the ghetto? And why to they make it a ghetto A broom an a mop can to wonders.

Besides I am not talking about the metropolitan city. I live in a small town surrounded by small towns. Thankfully I don't live by this trash heap.

Quote:

When migrant workers migrate to an area to work, the barrio goes with them. There is a certain percentage of them that are going to engage in this type of behavior. It has nothing to do with their legal status. Many migrant workers are in the country legally. They often travel in families and some of the family members do not live by the highest ethical standards. But that problem is found in poor neighborhoods across America.

Open the borders and let them all in because we have crime so what is more?

J

Quote:

ust a question. Let's say we kick every Mexican out of the country and poor Native Americans, or poor blacks, or poor Vietnamese or poor white folks become the new migrant workers. Do we expect any of these born-in-America populations to be less likely to commit petty crimes? Of course not! Why, because these crimes are common place in the poverty-stricken communities of America.

We are not dealing with your example.

Poverty is no excuse. Just handy to nail behavior on.You may want more petty crimes in order to have illegals by the thousands but many do not.

[karl]

Most Americans equate illegal aliens with a higher incidence of crime. Some academic researchers have attempted to prove that Americans' impressions are wrong. But, in fact, data show that the American public understands the facts better than the academics.

Adult illegal aliens represented 3.1 percent of the total adult population of the country in 2003. By comparison, the illegal alien prison population represented a bit more than 4.54 percent of the overall prison population. Therefore, deportable criminal aliens were more than half again as likely to be incarcerated as their share of the population.

Misleading Academic Studies

The misleading data produced by academics and think tank researchers which show a lower incidence of crime by aliens is based upon a comparison of data that include all foreign born residents with data for the native born population. Because these data compare all foreign born residents to the native born population, they are largely irrelevant to describing the illegal alien crime incidence.

[lazarus]

Can you please post links so we can take a look too.

[karl]

Can you please post links so we can take a look too.

Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa. If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That's 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001.

While King reports 12 Americans are murdered daily by illegal aliens, he says 13 are killed by drunk illegal alien drivers – for another annual death toll of 4,745. That's 23,725 since Sept. 11, 2001.

While no one – in or out of government – tracks all U.S. accidents caused by illegal aliens, the statistical and anecdotal evidence suggests many of last year's 42,636 road deaths involved illegal aliens.

Steve King's data is found here: http://steveking.house.gov/index.cfm?Fus...63-4A6BFE6812CE (scroll down about 3/4 of the way.)

A report by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Study found 20 percent of fatal accidents involve at least one driver who lacks a valid license. Data here: http://www.aaafoundation.org/pdf/UnlicensedToKill2.pdf

While no government agencies specifically track crimes by illegal aliens (what's wrong with this picture?) there have been some efforts to quantify the loss. Last December, Mac Johnson set out to determine an estimate of the number of homicides perpetrated by illegal aliens. Since the federal government would not provide any useful information, he contacted all 50 statehouses. Three months later, he had fewer than a dozen responses. Only one state, Vermont, provided any useful information.

He then set out to statistically estimate the number of murders by illegal aliens based on available crime data and conservative estimates of the actually number of illegal aliens in the country – which, of course, nobody really knows.

He estimated that between 1,806 and 2,510 people in the U.S. are murdered annually by illegal aliens. If he's right, that would represent between 11 percent and 15 percent of all murders in the U.S. His methods are listed here: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=10663

In one study of a sample of 55,000 illegal immigrants serving prison sentences in the U.S., it was discovered that they were involved in over 400,000 arrests and over 700,000 felony crimes.

According to Heather McDonald of the Manhattan Institute, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

Heather McDonald articles here: http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/mac_donald.htm

McDonald also notes that illegal immigration is undermining US morals as well as our justice system.

Mexican girls—who come from by far the largest and fastest-growing immigrant population--now have the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country. The Mexican teen birthrate is 93 births per every 1,000 girls, compared with 27 births for every 1,000 white girls, 17 births for every 1,000 Asian girls, and 65 births for every 1,000 black girls.

Hispanic women have the highest unmarried birthrate in the country. Moreover, 48 percent of all Hispanic births occur outside of marriage, compared with 24 percent of white births and 15 percent of Asian births. Only the percentage of black out-of-wedlock births -- 68% -- exceeds the Hispanic rate. But the black population is not going to triple over the next few decades.

There is no greater predictor of future dysfunction than growing up in a single-parent home. Children raised in single-parent homes are at far higher risk of school failure, juvenile delinquency, emotional problems, teen pregnancy, and poverty than children raised by married parents.

[bonnie]

It has to be about race.

As long as that fearsome word can be used all is well.

I would like some non racist to explain why we need open borders.

Why we need to treat illegals as legal american citizens and consider there side of the story.

My DIL is a legal immigrant. Was a lengthy process but she is here legally and made up her mind from day one to assimilate.Of course has friends from her home country but does not exclude american friends

[Dr. Shane]

Most Americans equate illegal aliens with a higher incidence of crime. Some academic researchers have attempted to prove that Americans' impressions are wrong. But, in fact, data show that the American public understands the facts better than the academics.

It has to do with poverty, not a person's legal status. If we want to compare apples with apples we have to compare the crime rate among illegals to the crime rate among Americans of the same economic class. I am sure such a study would show the illegals are no less likely to commit crimes than Americans of the same economic class. Perhaps a little less likely since illegals actually come here to work.

[bonnie]

Quote:

It has to do with poverty, not a person's legal status. If we want to compare apples with apples we have to compare the crime rate among illegals to the crime rate among Americans of the same economic class. I am sure such a study would show the illegals are no less likely to commit crimes than Americans of the same economic class. Perhaps a little less likely since illegals actually come here to work.

Poverty is not an excuse.Poverty became a excuse and a reason for lack of motivation,hard work,and responsible behavior after Johnson's great war on poverty.

You didn't see this coming out of the depression. You didn't see this in years passed from legal immigrants no matter how poor they were.

Poverty is not a terminal illness unless that is a conscious choice.

Why do we need to compare the level of crime by a group as compared to US crime? We excuse enough crime here because of poverty.

[Dr. Shane]

The association between poverty and petty crime is undeniable. I don't know of anyone saying that poverty justifies petty crime. We are not talking about the crime being justifiable. What we are talking about is a cause. Crime did increase during the Great Depression. Many stole produce out of farmers' fields. Poaching was so rampant during the Great Depression that laws against it were not well enforced for many years after. The only significant decrease in crime was that associated with repealing Prohibition.

This is the situation:

• We have a chicken processing plant in a rural area that needs workers.
• The plant is only paying $7.50/hour.
• No American workers are applying for jobs at that rate.
• So a group of migrant workers moves in and takes those low paying jobs.
• Now this small rural community has a sizable population of impoverished workers.
• The community experiences an increase in petty crime.

Is the increase in petty crime due to the legal status of the workers?

Is the increase in petty crime due to the economic class of the workers?

[Dr. Shane]

We can blame the low-paying industries that bring the workers to these rural communities if we want to.

However, as tempting as that is... if these companies pay higher wages many of them could not compete in the world market and would simply go out of business.

[bonnie]

We can blame the low-paying industries that bring the workers to these rural communities if we want to.

However, as tempting as that is... if these companies pay higher wages many of them could not compete in the world market and would simply go out of business.

If they cannot compete they pay the price of a business failure.

Ten companies paying 14.00 is better than supporting 20 companies paying 7.50 an hour with cheap labor

[Dr. Shane]

I am not talking about individual companies going bankrupt. I have no problem with that. Remember, I favor employer mandates requiring health insurance for their employees. It is pay or play. Let the weak companies go broke and the strong survive. I have no problem with that. However when talking about migrant labor, we are talking about entire industries going bankrupt. What would America be like without an agricultural industry? If we replace every $7.50 job with a $14 job, Mexico, Russia and Brazil we feed the world instead of America.

[karl]

Your mandate of health insurance will break the backbone of America. It favors larger companies which can negotiate more favorable deals for insurance.

[Dr. Shane]

They said the same thing about the minimum wage. The Lord said, the laborer is worthy of his hire. That means the laborer deserves a fair wage. That includes health insurance. If you can't afford to provide health insurance for your workers, you shouldn't be in business.

[karl]

They said the same thing about the minimum wage. The Lord said, the laborer is worthy of his hire. That means the laborer deserves a fair wage. That includes health insurance. If you can't afford to provide health insurance for your workers, you shouldn't be in business.

The arrogance of this is mind-blowing. Who made you emperor (and official embroiderer of the Scripture?) Why not gourmet food, custom tailored clothes and free limousine transportation? If you can't supply these to all your workers you shouldn't be in business.