...judge rules Day of Prayer unconstitutional

[Amelia]

Atheists, faithful lobby on Day of Prayer

Both sides scramble after judge rules Day of Prayer unconstitutional

By TODD RICHMOND

The Associated Press

Fri., April 23, 2010

MADISON, Wis. - To pray or not to pray?

That's the issue government leaders across the country are facing after a federal judge ruled that the National Day of Prayer set for May 6 was unconstitutional.

The ruling can't take effect until all appeals are exhausted, but that's not stopping atheists and prayer advocates from firing off letters, e-mails and even planning to put up billboards to convince state and local leaders across the country to see things their way.

Nothing's changing in Topeka, Kan., Mayor Bill Bunten says.

"Some of these judges have lost their way," Bunten said. "Every day is a day of prayer in most Kansas lives, whether they are Christian or Muslim or Jewish or whatever, and to say that a prayer day is illegal is just ridiculous. That judge better go back and read some history about how this country was formed. Next thing you know we won't be able to sing 'God Bless America.'"

The ruling raised a furor among religious advocacy groups, who say the day has become an American tradition. And the announcement this week by President Barack Obama's administration that it would appeal galvanized atheists, who are trying to persuade officials not to attend local events. Their campaigns illustrate the persistent tensions over any combination of religion and government.

Congress established a national prayer day in 1952 and in 1988 set the first Thursday in May as the official day for presidents to issue proclamations asking Americans to pray. Many state and local officials follow suit on that day.

Letters from 'Freethought Hall'

Two years ago, the Madison-based Freedom From Religion Foundation sued the federal government, alleging the day violated the separation of church and state. U.S. District Judge Barbara Crabb ruled April 15 that the day amounts to a call to religious action. She included a caveat, though, that said her ruling would have no effect until all appeals are exhausted.

A day after Crabb's ruling, the Alliance Defense Fund, an Arizona-based group of Christian lawyers, fired off letters to mayors telling them it has no bearing on prayer day activities.

"Public officials should be able to participate in public prayer activities just as America's founders did, and a recent federal judge's ruling does not prevent America's cities from lawfully observing the National Day of Prayer," ADF Senior Legal Counsel Mike Johnson said in a statement.

On Friday, the Madison offices of the Freedom From Religion Foundation — a converted rectory now dubbed "The Freethought Hall" — were bustling.

Employees prepared letters to governors and the mayors of more than 1,000 cities urging them not to participate in prayer day. They worked under signs that quoted Richard Dawkins ("The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction") and Mark Twain ("Faith is believing what you know ain't so").

They were drafting an online petition where people could urge Obama to honor Crabb's ruling and "leave days of prayer to individuals, private groups and churches, synagogues, mosques and temples." Annie Laurie Gaylor, one of the foundation's leaders, was putting the finishing touches on a full-page ad for The New York Times.

The foundation also plans to take out billboards promoting the separation of church and state in Colorado Springs, Co., home of the National Day of Prayer Task Force. The signs will read "God and government: A dangerous mix."

"Whether or not we win in court, I want to win in the court of public opinion," said Gaylor. "This law is based on lies and bad history."

Prayer advocates decry 'bickering'

John Bornschein, executive director of the National Day of Prayer Task Force, said atheists try to sway government leaders from participating in the prayer day every year, but are being more aggressive. He called such efforts a waste of money that could go toward the poor.

"We're an office full of patriots," Bornschein said. "To see bickering over these sorts of things, it's not a positive environment for people who need encouragement now more than ever."

Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt said he issues a proclamation every year recognizing the prayer day and attends a prayer breakfast with his name on the invitation. Nothing will change this year, he said.

Carl Brewer, mayor of Wichita, Kan., said the city recognizes prayer day every year. Officials often take prayer breaks and read Bible passages at events. He said this year will be no different.

"Prayer, he said, "is the foundation of the Midwest."

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36745830/ns/us_news-faith/

[doug yowell]

Doesn't the U.S. Congress open every session with a ------ given by a paid chaplain? Doesn't our money contain the words "In --- we trust". In the midst of the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln initiated the first annual National Day of Thanksgiving (now a paid Federal holiday) and PRAISE on Oct. 3,1863, issuing a formal Proclamation, passed by an Act of Congress:"... No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. they are gracious gifts of the Most High God,who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently, and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States...to set apart and observe...as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficient Father who dwelleth in the heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverences and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners, of sufferers...and fervently implore the imposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistentwith the Divine purposes..."---Sounds like an official Day of Prayer to me

[SivartM]

Good. Let me know when the government actually does something to oppress Christians.

[doug yowell]

Good. Let me know when the government actually does something to oppress Christians.

Why? Would you believe it if they did? Would you care? Is everything else OK up to actual"oppression". What would you consider oppression?

[SivartM]

Well, they're not actually telling people not to pray. That would be oppressive. They're just ruling against a government-sponsored day dedicated to prayer.

[doug yowell]

Well, they're not actually telling people not to pray. That would be oppressive. They're just ruling against a government-sponsored day dedicated to prayer.

What do you think Thanksgiving was for?

[karl]

We can't make the atheists uncomfortable by endorsing prayer. They might call down the wrath of.....nobody.... on us.

Doesn't this prove they actually believe in God? Why would they care if we talk to somebody who doesn't exist? It would be like talking to yourself.

Maybe we should pass a law against talking to ourselves.

[SivartM]

They (although I'm guessing many atheists don't care) don't like it for the same reason you wouldn't like it if the government had a national holiday for praying to Allah or Zeus. It's unconstitutional. Atheists don't care if you pray personally, they just don't want the government to sponsor it. It's called religious liberty.

[karl]

They (although I'm guessing many atheists don't care) don't like it for the same reason you wouldn't like it if the government had a national holiday for praying to Allah or Zeus. It's unconstitutional. Atheists don't care if you pray personally, they just don't want the government to sponsor it. It's called religious liberty.

Are Allah or Zeus excluded from the national day of prayer? Does it stipulate who gets prayed to? Atheists could pray to the easter bunny.

I don't think atheists are really offended. I think they just hate God and especially Christianity and want to mess with people who don't.

A national day of prayer infringes on nobody's liberty. Nobody is getting forced to do anything. A national day of prayer is not an establishment of religion such as is prohibited in the Constitution.

Christians should Tea Party together to continue observing the National Day of Prayer, Christmas, Easter, 4th of July (God Bless America,) and Thanksgiving even if the libs in the courts outlaw all of 'em.

[SivartM]

Nobody's saying you can't have a national day of prayer. Just not a government-sponsored one. The only reason people are upset about this is because they think the government is Christian and should cater to our religious wants.

Why would atheists hate someone who they don't believe exists? More likely they just think we're crazy.

Are we going to petition the government to support other religions' holidays as well? Or just ours because we're better?

[karl]

Nobody's saying you can't have a national day of prayer.

Did you join up with the opposition?

[SivartM]

What? I'm just saying that if some Christian charity adopted the idea instead of everyone getting mad at the government for not asking people to pray, there would be nothing to get upset about.

Is it that hard to pray without the government's permission?

I think that when rich American Christians get up in arms about this it's sort of insulting to Christians in countries with actually oppressive governments. Oh no, your government isn't asking you to pray; well, guess what? Millions of Christians have to pray in secret because they will be punished if caught praying.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

So the atheists must eat crow on Thanksgiving and other non-secular holidays.

[SivartM]

I thought they were supposed to eat turkey!

[Dr. Rich]

Yep, I totally agree. The government must not be involved. There will always be prayer in school as long as there are tests too.

[karl]

I think that when rich American Christians get up in arms about this it's sort of insulting to Christians in countries with actually oppressive governments. Oh no, your government isn't asking you to pray; well, guess what? Millions of Christians have to pray in secret because they will be punished if caught praying.

Actually, the more we depart from our Christian roots in this country, the harder it is on Christians in totalitarian countries. We're not helping them by becoming more secular.

[SivartM]

Our country was founded to be secular and not to endorse any religion. The more we imagine it's a Christian nation, the less religious freedom we have. Why someone who believes that a hyper-christian US government is going to be persecuting them in the near future would support the christianizing of government I have no idea.

[karl]

Our country was founded to be secular and not to endorse any religion. The more we imagine it's a Christian nation, the less religious freedom we have. Why someone who believes that a hyper-christian US government is going to be persecuting them in the near future would support the christianizing of government I have no idea.

Our country was founded by Christians as a Christian nation. Even a superficial reading of the Founders will assure you of this. The anti-establishment clause is not against the acknowledgment that we are a Christian nation. It is against the government favoring any one sect of Christianity over any other.

Because we are a Christian nation with freedoms which we believe are endowed by our Creator, we are tolerant not only of various Christian denominations, but of all religions.

This country was not founded as a secular country. It was founded on the principles of the Bible.

Geo Washington:

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

James Madison:

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787 Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;

“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,

the LORD is our king;

He will save us.

The US Founders did not believe that acknowledging our Christian foundation was a bad thing.

[SivartM]

Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers were Deists, not Christians. They left God and Jesus out of the Constitution for a reason.

[karl]

Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers were Deists, not Christians. They left God and Jesus out of the Constitution for a reason.

Which of the following are you claiming as a Deist?

Thomas Jefferson:

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man."

"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus."

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

Patrick Henry - Orator of the Revolution:

"This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed."

—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

"It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

John Adams and John Hancock:

"We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!" [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:

"The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity."

"I have examined all religions... the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

Samuel Adams:

"He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all." [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

John Quincy Adams:

"Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]? Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? ...That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?

--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

"The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code."

John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin:

"We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel" –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:

Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:

(1) Christianity

(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:

"In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect... that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness."

John Jay:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

Samuel Johnston:

• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.

[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison

“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

"It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other."

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;

"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,

the LORD is our king;

He will save us."

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution

"Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."

Noah Webster

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

George Washington

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

James McHenry

"Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."

Benjamin Rush:

“I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism."

Noah Webster:

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”

[source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

[SivartM]

Jefferson wrote his own Bible leaving out the miracles and other superstitions. He was not a Christian.

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

[karl]

Jefferson wrote his own Bible leaving out the miracles and other superstitions. He was not a Christian.

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

If you wrote a book about, say, Zen Buddhism, and then told us you were a disciple of Christ, should we claim you were a Buddhist or a Christian?

If Jefferson had claimed he was a Deist, there would be some substance to your conclusion, since only he could make up his mind for himself.

He didn't say he was a Deist.

He said "I am a disciple of Christ." Where in the world do you get the nerve to claim he was something other than what he said was?

But here is the kicker, Sivart. Where do you get the nerve to directly CONTRADICT him when he is talking about his religious beliefs and state he is NOT a Christian?

[SivartM]

Jefferson did not believe in miracles or the divinity of Jesus. Are you going to call that Christian? And just because the other founding fathers claimed to be Christian and said some Christiany things, that did not make them Christians either. Obama claims to be a Christian, but you won't give him the benefit of the doubt.

Nobody's keeping anyone from praying on the National Day of Prayer. Why do we need a government holiday dedicated to a religious activity? Why can't people just pray on their own because they want to without the government telling them to?

[karl]

Jefferson did not believe in miracles or the divinity of Jesus. Are you going to call that Christian?

Although I may disagree with some of his beliefs, and I disagree with the beliefs of many Christians, even Adventists, I do not go around claiming that they are not Christians.

Below are the words of TJ. Where can you derive from this or from anything else he wrote that he was NOT a Christian? I want to see quotes.

“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” [Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781]

“It [the Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

[Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson]

[SivartM]

I thought that as a fundamentalist you were supposed to believe that one of the fundamentals of Christianity was the divinity of Jesus. :\

My bad.