Robert Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 The gospel in a nutshell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 20, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 20, 2005 I downloaded Jack's article. For a "nutshell", it took almost 11 pages. If what you are teaching is supposed to be the gospel according to Jack Sequeira, then you have grossly misrepresented his position. I will comment later why. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 20, 2005 Author Share Posted February 20, 2005 Quote: I downloaded Jack's article. For a "nutshell", it took almost 11 pages. If what you are teaching is supposed to be the gospel according to Jack Sequeira, then you have grossly misrepresented his position. I will comment later why. Gerry The gospel is, "The birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the son of God and the son of man." Jack upholds the law as a standard of Christian living, as do I....What I have maintained (and Jack does too) is that just because we keep the letter of the law doesn't mean we are fully keeping its spirit (as in "do not covet"). Therefore we had better not be "under the law"! Why? Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. Why does Paul state this? Go to James 2:9 -- "If you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors." Where in the 10 commandments does the law say, "Thou shall not show favoritism"? It doesn’t' - that is, as far as the "letter" is concerned. But spiritually all self-seeking is sin and favoring one person over another is technically sin. Now what is the context of, "there is no partiality with God"? Go to verse 12 "For all who have sinned without the Law [i.e., without an explicit knowledge of God's law] will also perish without the Law" This doesn't sound fair does it? Not really....Paul is referring to the Gentiles in Romans 1:20-22 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they [those without the law, the Gentiles] are without excuse. 21 For even though they [the Gentiles] knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools.... Simply put, God will show no partiality to those Gentiles who reject Christ. Why? Because they have rejected the Spirit’s evaluation of their problem. What is their problem? They are sinners and the law demands the death of the sinner….Hence, “All who have sinned in the absence of the written law (but know it through their consciences) will likewise perish.” What about the Jew? “all who have sinned under the Law will be condemned by the Law; 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. The Jews had the law…they knew it explicitly. Yet they claimed salvation by obedience to that law….The problem is the law is not in business of forgiveness….It says (to those who are under it) obey me or die! Since the Jews claimed heaven by obedience to this law, in the end the law will condemn them to eternal death. The same is true of you, Gerry….If you are under the law (even as a standard) – the law will demand your death in the end! That’s because you are falling to fully live ALL its requirements…. Believers are not under the law! Why....All fall short! Yes growth that is harmony with the principle of God's law (love) will be evident, but each of us as our own particular "demons" to deal with....Some will mature more than others, but in the end none of us will be good enough to enter heaven's gate....Until our dying day we will still be sinners even though we are reflecting God's love more and more. You see if you maintain that you are still "under law" then according to Paul you are "under obligation to keep the whole Law"!!! [see Gal 5:3] Again remember that the Ten Commandments are only brief statements that are in harmony with God's love. Jesus expanded on them, as did Paul. So if you tell me (for example) to pay tithe (which I do not) - then I will tell you to sell all your goodies and give the proceeds to the poor and then live solely for their good (not your own).....I will tell you to walk as Christ walked (and He fulfilled the law). I agree the mature Christian shouldn't be killing, stealing, bowing down to imagines, keeping the Sabbath as connected to redemption (see Heb 4)...but these, of themselves are not enough. So instead of worrying if I am good enough, I rest is Christ's righteousness....Yes, there have been and are certain sins in my life that I desire deliverance from....In this area I am also learning to rest in Christ....After all it's good to be set from our addictions.... However, our greatest addiction is self-seeking and self-love....The 144,000 might (I am not totally sure) be free of "coveting"....If so, great....But this will not get them into heaven, rather it will demonstrate God's love through His church on earth....Perhaps the bride will be fully reflecting her Husband? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 21, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 21, 2005 Rob, here is what Jack says about faith. [:"blue"]"Faith, as defined in the NT, involves three major elements. 1. To have genuine faith, we must frist know the gospel...." 2. "Just knowing the gospel is not enough. We must believe this truth as it is in Christ. Belief means mental assent to this truth...." [/] Then he goes on to say, "Unfortunately, too many Christians stop there." Then he adds a third dimension of faith which, in my understanding from reading all your posts from all the long drawn out discussions we have had, you have tried so hard to eliminate, or you unfortunately, stopped at #2 as he says. And here's the third dimension. 3. The third element is very important. We must obey this truth. Paul reminded the Christians in Rome, "Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and aopostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith" [Rom 1:5]. In Romans 10:16 (KJV), he tells the Jewish nation, The reason you are lost is because you "have not all obeyed the gospel." In Gal 5:7, he told the Galatians, "You were running a good race. Who ...kept you from obeying the truth [the gospel]?" [/] I have consistently opposed your disparagement of obedience which Sequeira nowhere that I know of does. In fact here is what he said about works. Faith Works! [:"blue"]Paul says that we not only have peace through Jesus Christ, but in Ephesians 2:10 he tells us that God "created [us] in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Genuine justification by faith not only brings us peace with God and hope of eternal life, but it changes our whole attitude of life so that the Holy Spirit dwells in us. Through the Holy Spirit we begin to live a life of good works and [:"red"]loving obedience [/]to his word, which is the fruit of salvation. These good works have no merit, but are the evidence of our justification by faith." [/] This is exactly what I have been saying over & over & over again, but everytime I mention obedience to the 10c even if as the fruit of justification or as a loving response from the heart of a sinner saved from certain death, you reflexively charge me with legalism! Yes, I know you acknowledge some change in the believer's life, but you would never acknowledge it is a change from disobedience to obedience until I quoted you John 14:15. I have not thoroughly digested what Sequeira said, but from what I understand of what he has said, I have no major disagreement with your patron saint. But I think you are doing this man a great disservice by omiting the third dimension of his definition of faith, i.e. obedience, what he is saying about works, and taking to extreme what he is saying about selflessness. In fact I can't seem to find "selflessness" mentioned in his article. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Quote: But spiritually all self-seeking is sin and favoring one person over another is technically sin. I guess I have to question this since we have favored status for a number of Old Testament persons beginning with Abraham and culminating in the Chosen People. This is God showing favoritism. The problem I have with all these arguements is that they are strong on debate and weak on solution. They are basically technical arguements for a theological position, which is based on a lot of assumptions. They are complex, based on detailed analysis of texts, culture, context, etc. etc. I really don't see how they are good news. When I read authors like John Powell, or Henri Nouwen, they present very Jesus like presentations that move us into a deeper sense of the problem from an experienctial position. The answers they present are not rationales, but come out of the story they tell or the ethical dilemas of people's suffering. I've gone through William Miller, Ellen White, Jones & Wagner, Erwin Gane, Morris Vendon, Desmond Ford, Maxwell, etc. etc. and each has their own formula. They don't work period. Its because they are based on a debate around theology. Real world solutions require people engaging with other people in a loving way. There is no theology for this, its gained by mentoring. So, what I believe it boils down to is these presentations are simply debates over technicalities. After one or two generations of debate they lose most people and stop being relevant to anybody, other than those involved in the debate. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 21, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 21, 2005 Quote: Jack upholds the law as a standard of Christian living, as do I.... [:"blue"]Now, just think for a minute what you just said. How can anyone claim the law to be the standard of Christian living and then claim the Christian has been delivered from obedience to it? [/] Quote: What I have maintained (and Jack does too) is that just because we keep the letter of the law doesn't mean we are fully keeping its spirit (as in "do not covet"). Therefore we had better not be "under the law"! Why? [:"blue"]On the contrary, Paul plainly says when a person loves another, albeit imperfectly, he/she has fulfilled the spirit of the law! Rom 13:8,10. [/] Quote: Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. [:"blue"]Exactly! The law condemns willful transgression whether you are a believer or unbeliever. In fact, the believer who knows what is right & wrong and goes ahead & does what is wrong, is under a greater condemnation than the unbeliever who does not know the law! [/] Quote: Believers are not under the law! [:"blue"]As the means to salvation? Agreed! Here is what Historic Protestantism says: [:"red"]"The Christian is free from the law as a system of salvation (Rom 6:14; 7:4, 6; 1 Cor 9:20; Gal 2:15-19; 3:25), but is "under law toward Christ" as a rule of life (1 Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2). [/] Reformation Bible, p. 259. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 21, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 21, 2005 Simply put, here is how it works for me. I am a sinner. Sinners deserve to die. Jesus died the death I deserve. If I accept by faith His death in my place, then I am delivered from certain death. While God accepts me just as I am, He does not leave me the way I am. He cleanses me & purifies me. What we are arguing about is whether God means what He says in His word. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 Quote: I really don't see how they are good news The good news is that "in Christ" you have it all! The bad news is that if you do not seen your sinfulness (even after conversion) then you might not need Him any longer. After all "righteous" people do not need a Savor...for they are there own.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 Quote: He does not leave me the way I am. He cleanses me & purifies me. 1] He does nothing without your consent. God is not a God of force and compulsion. 2] He will not work in you as long as you are depending on those works either partially or fully for eternal life. 3] When 1 and 2 happen then you begin to experience a change. God begins to work in you one sin at a time....He allow you to go through bad experiences so that you might be refined. As EGW said, sanctification is the work of a lifetime. She also goes on to say that we will never reach perfection this side of eternity....If that is true (and I believe it is) YOU HAD BETTER NOT BE "UNDER THE LAW" because it requires perfection (see Matt 5:48) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 "Obeying the gospel" or "obeying the word" is not the same as "obeying the law".....Obeying the law is being absolutely perfect....None of us are fully obeying the law! We fall short of the glory of God! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 21, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 21, 2005 Quote: Quote: He does not leave me the way I am. He cleanses me & purifies me. 1] He does nothing without your consent. God is not a God of force and compulsion. [:"blue"]How right you are. That is why every day, every moment of the day, I try/pray/submit myself as clay in the hands of the Potter, to mold me into the vessel He wants me to be. I can't claim Him to be LORD in my life & then proceed to do my own thing. [/]Quote: 2] He will not work in you as long as you are depending on those works either partially or fully for eternal life. [:"blue"]You know, Robert, I don't know how many times a person has to repeat something for it to register in your brain. I have said over & over & over again that I obey the law not for merit, not for brownie points, but because I know it pains the heart of God for me to hurt any of His children. For me to willfully & deliberately do what I know to be sinful is to crucify Jesus all over again, Heb 6:6. It was sin that separated mankind from God. It was sin that brought all these sufferings on this planet & into the heart of God. How can I continue in it? Since you can't accept my words, let your patron saint speak: [:"red"]"Paul says that we not only have peace through Jesus Christ, but in Eph 2:10 he tells us that God "created [us] in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Genuine justification by faith not only brings us peace with God and hope of eternal life, but it changes our whole attitude of life so that the Holy Spirit dwells in us. Through the Holy Spirit we begin to live a life of good works and loving obedience to his word, which is the fruit of salvation. THESE GOOD WORKS HAVE NO MERIT, but are the evidence of our justification by faith." Sequeira. [/] [/] Quote: 3] When 1 and 2 happen then you begin to experience a change. [:"blue"]And that change, according to Jack Sequeira, is doing the good works God has prepared for us to do. As he said, "Through the Holy Spirit we begin to live a life of GOOD WORKS and LOVING OBEDIENCE to his word, which is the FRUIT of salvation. THESE GOOD WORKS HAVE NO MERIT..." [/] You accept & claim a change but deny obedience. You claim to be a follower of Sequeira who teaches good works & obedience, yet you deny both. Quote: God begins to work in you one sin at a time....He allow you to go through bad experiences so that you might be refined. As EGW said, sanctification is the work of a lifetime. She also goes on to say that we will never reach perfection this side of eternity....If that is true (and I believe it is) YOU HAD BETTER NOT BE "UNDER THE LAW" because it requires perfection (see Matt 5:48) [:"blue"]The perfection that the law requires for salvation has been satisfied by the perfection of Christ. Let me quote the Reformation understanding of being under law again. [:"red"]"THE CHRISTIAN IS FREE FROM THE LAW [/] AS A SYSTEM OF SALVATION (Rom 6:14; 7:4, 6; 1 Cor 9:20; Gal 2:15-19; 3:25), [:"red"]BUT IS "UNDER LAW TOWARD CHRIST" as a rule of life (1 Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2) [/]If you can't understand this distinction, then there is no point in carrying on this discussion. It is a waste of time and just grates those who are following this thread. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 21, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 21, 2005 Quote: "Obeying the gospel" or "obeying the word" is not the same as "obeying the law".....Obeying the law is being absolutely perfect....None of us are fully obeying the law! We fall short of the glory of God! [:"blue"]Why don't you call or write to Jack Sequeira and find out if "obeying the gospel" or "obeying the word" excludes obedience to the 10c? [:"red"]"The entirety of Your word is truth.." Ps 119:160 NKJ. [/] [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 The gospel is the good news that God - the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit - want to have a personal relationship with us. The law is not given to show us how we are saved. It is given so we may know how to build healthy relationships with God and our fellow brothers and sisters. The gospel is about the character of God. God is forgiveness, love, mercy, compassion personified. No one has to convince Him to forgive, love, pity, help us. Obedience to the law must always be viewed in this light. Our personal salvation is a total gift from beginning to the end. Obedience involves working, sacrificing to save others, to help them, cloth them, feed them. This also is the work of the Holy Spirit. Our part is to learn how to be constantly in a "yes, Lord" frame of mind. If we resist Him, there is nothing He can do for us or through us. Even this is the work of the Spirit. He gives us the "yes, Lord" nature. Our real work is to stop resisting. YOur friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 22, 2005 Author Share Posted February 22, 2005 Quote: Paul plainly says when a person loves another, albeit imperfectly, he/she has fulfilled the spirit of the law! Rom 13:8,10. No Paul does not say that love fulfills the spirit of the law. He simply says that love fulfills the law! However, spiritually speaking, all men fall short of the glory of God (see Rom 3:23)...That is why Paul said, "We know that the law is spiritual; but I [the converted Paul] am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin." Compared to the spirit of the law we are unspiritual....Remember the discussion of Romans 7:7-11? Until you realize that truth you will always see yourself as keeping the law in all its fullness.... Quote: The perfection that the law requires for salvation has been satisfied by the perfection of Christ...."THE CHRISTIAN IS FREE FROM THE LAW AS A SYSTEM OF SALVATION, BUT IS " UNDER LAW TOWARD CHRIST" as a rule of life [i have removed 4 words--GM.] Break it down anyway you wish, but you are still preaching a subtle form of works. This is typical thinking of legalists!!!! In other words Christ does His part; now through His grace we must do our part. Well that still adds up to "glory for me"! It's still salvation by doing something. Here's the problem Gerry: Your theology still robs the believer of the assurance of salvation! "How so" you ask? First of all he/she will always doubt his/her sincerity as in "maybe I could have tried harder or done more!" Further more what commandments does Christ expect us to keep and which one will He keep for us???? Am I to keep 40% and Christ 60%? No Gerry, we are not "under law" in any way!!! Experiencing good works has nothing to do with being under law. In fact you can't experience genuine good works unless you have the assurance of salvation.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 22, 2005 Author Share Posted February 22, 2005 Quote: you can't experience genuine good works unless you have the assurance of salvation.... Dr. Ben alluded to this using 2 Cor. chapter 3....Look at it carefully and you will see it is teaching exactly what I said above: 14 But their ["the sons of Israel"] minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant [the terms of the law: obey & live, disobey & die] the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. A close look at the context and you will realize that this "veil" refers to the curtain that separated the holy from the most holy place. Anyone who entered the most holy place died. Why? They were sinners! They couldn't approach God.... But "in Christ" the veil has been lifted....Now we can can come boldly before the throne...we can enter the most holy place through the blood of Christ. We are covered by His righteousness. We have the full assurance of salvation (see Heb 10:19-22 NIV). What is the result? 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Quote: What we are arguing about is whether God means what He says in His word. This is an unending arguement. There is no way to prove that God means what is said in the Bible. Quote: Simply put, here is how it works for me. I am a sinner. Sinners deserve to die. Jesus died the death I deserve. If I accept by faith His death in my place, then I am delivered from certain death. While God accepts me just as I am, He does not leave me the way I am. He cleanses me & purifies me. None of these ideas are provable. They are a series of assumptions. And what they solve is simply a technical arguement of law based on these assumptions. If we look at real life, the problem of suffering, is really not addressed with this summary. If we would present this to a person within the midst of suffering, this really would seem rather trite. I would ask, what do we do as Christians, to reduce the worlds suffering? How do we express love, the main sign of being a Christian? Too often, I see Christians using shame, rather than love as a way to solve the worlds suffering. So, in my experience, I have seen very little practical use for theological arguements. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Quote: The good news is that "in Christ" you have it all! The bad news is that if you do not seen your sinfulness (even after conversion) then you might not need Him any longer. After all "righteous" people do not need a Savor...for they are there own.... This is still a rather technical arguement. It is also based on something that only exists as an idea. Real life is the test for how something works. These types of theologcial presentations are difficult to present to someone who hasn't had training in theological studies. I don't see Jesus debating these types of issues. I see him talking about social injustice, the valuing of human life, and the equality of all people in the eyes of God. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Quote: Too often, I see Christians using shame, rather than love as a way to solve the worlds suffering. And doesn't shame itself CAUSE suffering to begin with? I've never known nor heard tell of shame that didn't cause pain and suffering. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 22, 2005 Author Share Posted February 22, 2005 Quote: I don't see Jesus debating these types of issues. Then try re-reading your Bible! The Apostle Paul makes up 53% of the NT....Jesus made many arguments....He was always getting into trouble with the church leaders. Quote: Real life is the test for how something works "Real life" sucks! No matter how you butter it up, you have a grave in front of you and unless you make Christ your righteousness you won't be coming out of it....That's real life! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Quote: Then try re-reading your Bible! The Apostle Paul makes up 53% of the NT....Jesus made many arguments....He was always getting into trouble with the church leaders. You know I said Jesus didn't make these types of theological arguements. The last time I checked, the Apostle Paul wasn't Jesus Christ. You might want to re-read the Bible and check where Jesus made any presentations that dealt with the theological arguements you have presented. What I see Jesus doing is dealing with social issues primarily and not theological ones. Quote: "Real life" sucks! No matter how you butter it up, you have a grave in front of you and unless you make Christ your righteousness you won't be coming out of it....That's real life! You know I read where Jesus comes to give us life that is more abundant. I experience that when I follow the spiritual lessons that I have learned. That is what gives me confidence in what I believe, not theoretical arguements. My point is that when I tested all these various theological systems in real life they fell short because they only address problems they themselves set up. You illustrate a point that I have learned, by your last statement. When Jesus says that perfect love casts out all fear, it makes sense to me that I should focus on love and the solution that it has to offer. Your solution is based on fear and I have learned that fear, while it has its use, should not be the primary focus of life. If fear is your primary rationale, no wonder you feel like life sucks. Life, for me, has had its dark times, but those dark times have provided some of them most valuable insights and I truely believe, from experience, that all things work for good. And I do not fear death because I no longer rely on some theory or theology for my sense of security. I rely on a very real sense of God's presence and love. I have found that those authors that have a real life sense of what God is like provide the deepest insights into the spiritual life. Because they are not writing from theory, they are writing from real life experience that they have been witnesses to. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 22, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 22, 2005 RE: " 'Real life' sucks! No matter how you butter it up, you have a grave in front of you and unless you make Christ your righteousness you won't be coming out of it....That's real life! " There is a sense in which I understand, and agree with what you have said in the above comment. Yet, there is also a sense in which I do not. Eternal life is both a quality, and a quantity. Most of us reading these posts beieve that the quantity of eternal life is given only at the Second Advent of Christ. But, I also believe that in a limited sense, the Christian can experience the quality of eternal life now. [NOTE: I have stated limited, not full sense.] Robert, your posts trouble me in a couple of areas: a) I do not get a sense that you experience any part of the quality of eternal life in the present. Rather, I see you focusing entirely on the future, with no joy now. I am well aware of you proclaimed rejection of legalism. Yet, in reading your posts, I sometimes get the feeling that legalism is a part of your very being. Robert, you may be none of what I have stated that I see in you, in my above comment. I do not say that you are that way. I only say that is how you sometimes come across to me. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Rob, I heard a lot of fear coming out in that last post. That is primarily what I hear from you. Fear and its misplaced zeal, as well as classic religious obsessions, that is, you tend to repeat the same 2 or 3 ideas over and over no matter what the topic is, and believe them to fit into everything. That's not profundity or vision; that's obsession. This is NOT meant as a put-down to you in ANY way. Rather it is my way of saying I'm concerned about you as my brother in Christ. How's your courage? Your faith? Have you His sweet peace? Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 22, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 22, 2005 Quote: Quote: What we are arguing about is whether God means what He says in His word. This is an unending arguement. There is no way to prove that God means what is said in the Bible. Quote: Simply put, here is how it works for me. I am a sinner. Sinners deserve to die. Jesus died the death I deserve. If I accept by faith His death in my place, then I am delivered from certain death. While God accepts me just as I am, He does not leave me the way I am. He cleanses me & purifies me. None of these ideas are provable. They are a series of assumptions. And what they solve is simply a technical arguement of law based on these assumptions. [:"blue"]Richard, if the Bible & the promises of God in it is nothing more than human assumptions, then we are most of all creatures miserable. Did Jesus come down to this planet? There is ample historical evidence that He did. Did He rise again after He died? There were hundreds of witnesses who claimed they saw Him. How many witnesses do you need? Can we "prove" it in the sense of what you want, i.e. reproduce it? Obviously not. [:"red"]"But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.....And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!....If in this life only we have hope in Christ, [if this is all just human assumptions - parenthesis mine], we are of all men the most pitiable." 1 Cor 15:13,14,17,19 NKJ [:"blue"] But He did rise!!![/] [/] And the fact is, [:"red"]"All the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." 2 Cor 1:20-22 NKJ. [/] So, when I have Jesus in whom ALL the promises of God are "Yes", including the promise of eternal life, then I am totally & completely assured of its reality. As Paul says, [:"red"]"For we walk by faith, not by sight." 2 Cor 5:7 NKJ. [/] [/] Quote: If we look at real life, the problem of suffering, is really not addressed with this summary. [:"blue"]Ah, but my response to humanity's suffering is inherent in that summary. Only as I have a relationship with God (vertical), can I truly respond to humanity's suffering (horizontal). Only as I experience the comfort of God in my own distress can I truly able to comfort those who are afflicted, 2 Cor 1:4. [/] Quote: If we would present this to a person within the midst of suffering, this really would seem rather trite. I would ask, what do we do as Christians, to reduce the worlds suffering? How do we express love, the main sign of being a Christian? [:"blue"]Agape love is not possible until the God of agape love first dwells in the heart. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 22, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 22, 2005 Quote: Here's the problem Gerry: Your theology still robs the believer of the assurance of salvation! [:"blue"]I have no such doubts as you claim. Besides, no matter how much we claim we have assurance, we won't know for sure until we find ourselves in the kingdom. The Pharisee praying in the temple was ABSOLUTELY sure he was saved, and the poor publican could not even raise his head but could only trust in God's mercy, yet Jesus said it was he who had salvation. So, I don't dwell on how much assurance I have or don't have. My focus is to know & have Jesus in my life. For "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 Jn 5:12 NKJ [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Quote: [:"blue"] Agape love is not possible until the God of agape love first dwells in the heart. [/] (Just a general observation, not directed at anyone in particular:) Agape love is also not possible while we are trying to out-shout one another with our version of the "truth". Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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