The gospel in a nutshell

[Nicodema]

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[:"blue"] The Pharisee praying in the temple was ABSOLUTELY sure he was saved, and the poor publican could not even raise his head but could only trust in God's mercy, yet Jesus said it was he who had salvation. So, I

don't dwell on how much assurance I have or don't have.

My focus is to know & have Jesus in my life. For "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 Jn 5:12 NKJ [/]

Gerry

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I like this thought, Gerry. Thanks for putting that out there. I'm going to try to remember it the next time the worry over "assurance" tries to bedevil my mind.

[Gerr]

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"Real life" sucks! No matter how you butter it up, you have a grave in front of you and unless you make Christ your righteousness you won't be coming out of it....That's real life!

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[:"blue"]Sounds like you need some joy, my friend. That is a fruit produced by that same Spirit that writes the principles of the law into the heart & mind.

But that (the joy) would be very difficult with your theology of "selflessness", i.e. to be "selfless" & thus meet your idea of God's "selfless" requirement, you have to divest yourself of ALL possessions & give them to your neighbors.

[:"red"]"I have come that they [you] may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." Jn 10:10 NKJ.

"I know that nothing is better for them than to rejoice, and to do good in their lives, and also that every man should eat and drink and enjoy the good of all his labor - it is the gift of God. Eccl 3:12 NKJ [/]

[/]Gerry

[Gerr]

Let me give you an example of obeying the spirit of the law & failing in the letter.

In yesterday's Riverside Press Enterprise was an article about two teenage girls who had been baking cookies & giving them anonymously to their neighbors. One late evening, they knocked on a neighbor's backdoor out there in the country. Before the door was opened, they ran off but left this box of home-made cookies with a nice valentine heart card on the outside with "Have a nice night, from the club of T & L."

The occupant claimed this got her into a panick thus incurring some medical expenses. She found out who the girls were & took them to a small claims court & won. She may have won the judge over, but when this became known, public opinion was overwhelmingly against her.

Had you been the judge, would you have found the girls guilty?

Or how about obeying the letter and failing the spirit?

I have a patient who has MS. He is a very nice man. A good man. But when his father died, for some reason he left everything including a house to my patient's sister except for, I believe, $10k. The house sold for $400K. Now, the sister kept the letter of the law by keeping everything except the $10K for his now destitute brother, but did she keep the spirit of being a loving sister?

Gerry

[cardw]

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Richard, if the Bible & the promises of God in it is nothing more than human assumptions, then we are most of all creatures miserable. Did Jesus come down to this planet? There is ample historical evidence that He did. Did He rise again after He died? There were hundreds of witnesses who claimed they saw Him. How many witnesses do you need? Can we "prove" it in the sense of what you want, i.e. reproduce it? Obviously not.

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I believe that Jesus was here on the planet. As far as Jesus being God, I believe that is a later addition. From what I have studied of other religious writings and of the religious writings of the New Testament, I think we have good evidence of quite a few additions to make it compatible with Greek and Roman culture. We also have the dominant theology of Paul represented and no other gnostic theologies, other than the book of John, which is interpreted in the light of Paul. Since Rome became the dominant influence in the formation of the church when Christianity became the state religion, I think it makes sense that Paul's theology would become dominant, since Paul was last in Rome and became the primary voice for Roman and Greek Christians.

We have evidence that as late as the 6th century, Christians still considered Jesus a sage, rather than the Son of God. What we have today barely resembles what Jesus was teaching.

So, while I deeply appreciate the wisdom of Jesus, I find good evidence that the Bible is a highly politicized document. Just because someone says they are a witness, doesn't mean they are a reliable witness.

The only proof we have is the reproduction of love in the Christian community. And this is really only proof of God's love, not theology.

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Only as I have a relationship with God (vertical), can I truly respond to humanity's suffering (horizontal). Only as I experience the comfort of God in my own distress can I truly able to comfort those who are afflicted, 2 Cor 1:4.

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I state this principle in this way. We can't lead people where we haven't gone. I don't know if it is my love or God's love that brings compassion to my heart. And I really don't care. I'm fine with giving God the credit. To tell you the truth, I only experienced God's love when I found a community of caring people. I have found a number of these communities and many of them are not Christian. Some are, but being defined Christian isn't a requirement for a commuity to express God's love. Theology doesn't matter in the expression of love. If God IS Love, then where love is expressed, God is there.

That is what I see Jesus teaching. We have Paul come along and create a whole layer of apologetics and self loathing. We shouldn't be calling it Christianity, but Paulism.

And you didn't really answer my questions. This one particularly...

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If we would present this to a person within the midst of suffering, this really would seem rather trite. I would ask, what do we do as Christians, to reduce the worlds suffering? How do we express love, the main sign of being a Christian?

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You answered by stating how it doesn't happen. Your theology doesn't teach how it does. And no theology can. It is only through the experience of God's love and I believe the primary place to experience God's love is in a loving community. We have so little teaching on how to produce a loving community and whole bunch of teaching on the fine points of theology. And the belief is, if my fine points of theology are right, then I will stop sinning and be saved. I have never found that to work.

Richard

[Gregory Matthews]

Gary:

The incident with the two girls who left the cookies occured in the Denver metro area. You are basicly correct in you comment. However, it occured in the 9:30 to 10:00 PM time period. I have to admit that such a time was to late to be knocking on the front door of an elderly lady, and running off so she would have not idea that it was her neighbor.

By the way, the public has paid the girls $900.00 judgement.

Yes, it has gotten a lot of publicity.

I also should point out that the woman requested $3,000.00 in medical expenses and damages. The judge in granting $900.00 gave her less than 1/3 of what she asked (30%).

[Gerr]

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I believe that Jesus was here on the planet. As far as Jesus being God, I believe that is a later addition.

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[:"blue"]If Jesus is not the Son of God He claimed to be, then He was one big liar and no Savior. And you & I are still in our sins with no hope whatsoever. [/]

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From what I have studied of other religious writings and of the religious writings of the New Testament, I think we have good evidence of quite a few additions to make it compatible with Greek and Roman culture. We also have the dominant theology of Paul represented and no other gnostic theologies, other than the book of John, which is interpreted in the light of Paul. Since Rome became the dominant influence in the formation of the church when Christianity became the state religion, I think it makes sense that Paul's theology would become dominant, since Paul was last in Rome and became the primary voice for Roman and Greek Christians.

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[:"blue"]I am quite satisfied with the Biblical evidence for Christ's divinity. [/]

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We have evidence that as late as the 6th century, Christians still considered Jesus a sage, rather than the Son of God. What we have today barely resembles what Jesus was teaching.

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[:"blue"]I believe the divinity of Jesus was settled by the 4th or 5th century. Of course we'll have people that will claim otherwise to the end of time. Take the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example. [/]

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So, while I deeply appreciate the wisdom of Jesus, I find good evidence that the Bible is a highly politicized document. Just because someone says they are a witness, doesn't mean they are a reliable witness.

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[:"blue"]I'll take the witness of 512 + 1. [/]

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The only proof we have is the reproduction of love in the Christian community. And this is really only proof of God's love, not theology.

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[:"blue"]I can't quibble with that. The most convincing proof for Christianity is a loving & lovable Christian. [/]

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Only as I have a relationship with God (vertical), can I truly respond to humanity's suffering (horizontal). Only as I experience the comfort of God in my own distress can I truly able to comfort those who are afflicted, 2 Cor 1:4.

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I state this principle in this way. We can't lead people where we haven't gone. I don't know if it is my love or God's love that brings compassion to my heart. And I really don't care. I'm fine with giving God the credit. To tell you the truth, I only experienced God's love when I found a community of caring people. I have found a number of these communities and many of them are not Christian. Some are, but being defined Christian isn't a requirement for a commuity to express God's love. Theology doesn't matter in the expression of love. If God IS Love, then where love is expressed, God is there.

That is what I see Jesus teaching. We have Paul come along and create a whole layer of apologetics and self loathing. We shouldn't be calling it Christianity, but Paulism.

And you didn't really answer my questions. This one particularly...

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If we would present this to a person within the midst of suffering, this really would seem rather trite. I would ask, what do we do as Christians, to reduce the worlds suffering? How do we express love, the main sign of being a Christian?

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You answered by stating how it doesn't happen. Your theology doesn't teach how it does. And no theology can. It is only through the experience of God's love and I believe the primary place to experience God's love is in a loving community. We have so little teaching on how to produce a loving community and whole bunch of teaching on the fine points of theology. And the belief is, if my fine points of theology are right, then I will stop sinning and be saved. I have never found that to work.

Richard

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[:"blue"]I have explained to you how it happens for me, not how it does not happen as you say. As I stated, the ONLY way agape love can flow out of me is for the God of agape love to infuse it into me first. I am no expert giving answers to suffering people, but as a doctor I minister to their needs the best way I can. When I saw the need of the tsunami victims, I sent a contribution to ADRA to help alleviate that need. I also pray for them. My brother collects good used clothing & I help him with the expenses sending them overseas to people who might benefit from them.

Right theology is no guarantee that one would live rightly. However, it is more difficult to live rightly if one's core beliefs are not right.[/]

Gerry

[DaveM1936]

What is "truth" (definitions)

- state of being true;

- genuineness;

- what are the facts;

- what is reality;

- authentic,

- true

John 14:5-6 - Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" Jesus said to him, " [:"red"] I am the way, and the truth, and the life [/] ; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. (NAS)

The Gospel is all about personal initimate relationships, expecially between God and you.

Truth is not:

- the Bible

- the doctrines

- the law

- the Spirit of Prophecy

- any creed or any set of beliefs, however correct.

- anything found in books

- an idea

Truth is:

- a Person, Jesus

- a living, honest, authentic, reproduction in human form, of the God of love

- the only way to God is being in Jesus and Jesus being in us

How do we receive or appropriate truth Jesus)?

- We make Jesus our own;

- We take Jesus for our own exclusive Friend;

- This is a personal experience not shared by anyone else

- apply how to acquire and accept Jesus.

- This is an experience, not a Bible study.

- Making room for Jesus is our sole effort,

- hold onto Jesus like Peter did,

- as an empty cup, we make sure we contain nothing but Jesus.

Truth is experience based, not theory based.

- It is to be tested by experiment;

- We are to take it to the lab and look for the facts.

- We are to take a clinical, test-tube approach.

- Find out by trial and error what God and Christ are all about.

- Truth must be practical.

Rev 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (KJV)

Matt 11:28-30 - Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (KJV)

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

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I see you focusing entirely on the future, with no joy now.

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Actually you do not see....Please do not psychoanalyze me. Thanks.

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I am well aware of you proclaimed rejection of legalism. Yet, in reading your posts, I sometimes get the feeling that legalism is a part of your very being.

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No, in fact the best way to discourage legalism is to give law, law, law and more law....Give as many rules as possible and then go further by going into the spirit of the law. That is what I do....Why? Because that is why Christ gave the law! He never gave it as a method of salvation - He gave it to us because He understands our proud, human nature.

In a nutshell I proclaim the law to discourage all confidence in our proud, legalistic natures. Our assurance must be in what Christ did 2000 years ago. That's why I emphasize the law. So your assumption is in error....

Rob

[Robert]

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Rob, I heard a lot of fear coming out in that last post. That is primarily what I hear from you.

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If you have Jesus there is nothing to fear, but if you do not there's judgment. If your faith is "in Christ" then He is representing YOU "in Himself" in the heavenly places.

If your faith is in yourself (or anyone except Christ) then there is judgment. Your master will be the law and the law will condemn you to eternal death.

Under law you have death. Under Christ you have life.

The scary part is being "under law"....So if you believe this warning is "fear" then so be it....I fear being under law! It drives me to Christ where I find peace and love....

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you tend to repeat the same 2 or 3 ideas over and over no matter what the topic is, and believe them to fit into everything. That's not profundity or vision; that's obsession.

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Then I am "obsessed" with Jesus Christ....

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This is NOT meant as a put-down to you in ANY way. Rather it is my way of saying I'm concerned about you as my brother in Christ. How's your courage? Your faith? Have you His sweet peace?

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Are you offering me a Prozac? Worry about your own faith {please/thank you)....

[Robert]

The Topic here, guys and gals, is "The gospel in a nutshell"

Most of the posts are,

[Robert]

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I have no such doubts as you claim.

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I don't believe you! You know what that means....

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Besides, no matter how much we claim we have assurance, we won't know for sure until we find ourselves in the kingdom.

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Not according to Jesus Christ! You see, you are introducing doubt and the reason is you are not sure of your salvation because your theology has in it a subtle thread of legalism....A little arsenic will kill you! A little legalism will ruin your assurance.

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The Pharisee praying in the temple was ABSOLUTELY sure he was saved....

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Yes and no....Yes in the sense that I am sure he considered himself blameless as did Job and Saul. No in the sense the Spirit of God will never give one peace or assurance as long as one holds to this self-righteous attitude. After all self-righteousness (the unpardonable sin) is the one that will cause you to be eternally lost.

This "doubt" I speak of can be seen in the story of the Rich Young Ruler....Why did he ask, "what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life" if he had assurance? After all he claimed to keep the law (see verses 18,19)....

I'll tell you why, he had no joy - no peace - no assurance....That's because you get peace from justification by faith.... Here let's read that again:

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ...."

[Nicodema]

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I don't know if it is my love or God's love that brings compassion to my heart. And I really don't care. I'm fine with giving God the credit. To tell you the truth, I only experienced God's love when I found a community of caring people. I have found a number of these communities and many of them are not Christian. Some are, but being defined Christian isn't a requirement for a commuity to express God's love. Theology doesn't matter in the expression of love. If God IS Love, then where love is expressed, God is there.

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This is the most wisdom-shining, pure, simple, plain truth statement to sum it all up that I've seen in a long time. I hope you don't mind I took the liberty of adding it to my blog. With proper credit of course.

[Nicodema]

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Then I am "obsessed" with Jesus Christ....

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Except that Jesus Christ has not been the focus of your obsessions that I can see. Other things have, and I'm not the only one to have noticed, and I'll just leave it at that.

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Are you offering me a Prozac? Worry about your own faith {please/thank you)....

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People who have peace don't need to be nasty to others, so I will take that as a solid "NO" in answer to my previous question. Now to answer yours in turn, no, I am not offering you a Prozac. Why, do you need one?

"Worry about my own faith" ... hmmmm. Sounds an awful lot to me like, "I am not my brother's keeper." I notice you go out of your way to tell everyone else (myself included) when you think there is something amiss with their perspective -- when you think they are being legalistic, when you think they are not getting it about agape love, whatever. I thought you would appreciate some genuine concern about your well being. Well sorry, I can't just "worry about my own" because we are all members of one body and if you're sick, it affects me too. So what would you have me to do -- act like you don't exist, don't matter? Or what?

[cardw]

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If Jesus is not the Son of God He claimed to be, then He was one big liar and no Savior. And you & I are still in our sins with no hope whatsoever.

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This assumes that Jesus had a mission to die for our sins. Jesus wasn't the first god to die for our sins. If the Bible is a politically motivated document then its report on Jesus and his mission is not a source of rational arguement. I am talking specifically about Paul's view of Jesus' mission. If we read the gospels on their own, there is no basis for many of the specific doctrines.

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I have explained to you how it happens for me, not how it does not happen as you say. As I stated, the ONLY way agape love can flow out of me is for the God of agape love to infuse it into me first. I am no expert giving answers to suffering people, but as a doctor I minister to their needs the best way I can. When I saw the need of the tsunami victims, I sent a contribution to ADRA to help alleviate that need. I also pray for them. My brother collects good used clothing & I help him with the expenses sending them overseas to people who might benefit from them.

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I'm not asking you to defend your goodness. What I am saying is that no one knows, based on any book or rationale. I believe in the basic truths that life reveals, but to define it in one small narrow way and state that everyone has to believe that way to be saved doesn't hold up. So, if your belief brings you to a place of compassion, great. I don't have a problem with personal beliefs. I do have a problem when people assume that their belief is what everyone should believe.

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Right theology is no guarantee that one would live rightly. However, it is more difficult to live rightly if one's core beliefs are not right.

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This assumes that core beliefs are formed by thinking. This ignores that instinct, modeling, cultural values, life experience and the presence of God's spirit as being far more powerful than what we read.

Richard

[LifeHiscost]

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I don't have a problem with personal beliefs. I do have a problem when people assume that their belief is what everyone >>should believe<<.Richard

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There is a difference between what one >>should believe<<

and what belief will give eternal life.

[:"red"] "So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

[/] Acts 16:31 NKJV

[:"red"] "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." [/] 1 John 5:11 KJV

[:"red"] "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." [/] John 3:18 NKJV

Lift Jesus up!!

[Robert]

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Well sorry, I can't just "worry about my own" [faith]

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You can't believe for me or I you....

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Actually you do not see....Please do not psychoanalyze me. Thanks."

Robert:

No one has psychoanalized you. We have simply told you how you come across to us. There are a number of people here who are willing to tell you, from the standpoint of a friend who tells another something that they do not want to hear, that your presentation is that of one who finds no joy in the Christian life here on earth.

You are entitled to reject that. It may not reflect the reality of your personal life. But, if that is true--that you do have joy--then you may need to look at how you present your message.

[Gerr]

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If Jesus is not the Son of God He claimed to be, then He was one big liar and no Savior. And you & I are still in our sins with no hope whatsoever.

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This assumes that Jesus had a mission to die for our sins. Jesus wasn't the first god to die for our sins. If the Bible is a politically motivated document then its report on Jesus and his mission is not a source of rational arguement. I am talking specifically about Paul's view of Jesus' mission. If we read the gospels on their own, there is no basis for many of the specific doctrines.

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[:"blue"]First, you mentioned a hypothesis that the Bible might be a politicized document. No you are working from the standpoint that this hypothesis is true?

Now, Moses, Isaiah, Zechariah, the psalmists, all the other prophets, the disciples, & Paul all conspired to make a political statement? That is a proposition that is totally not credible to me.

[:"red"]"O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory? And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." Lk 24:25-27 NKJ. [/] [/]

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I have explained to you how it happens for me, not how it does not happen as you say. As I stated, the ONLY way agape love can flow out of me is for the God of agape love to infuse it into me first. I am no expert giving answers to suffering people, but as a doctor I minister to their needs the best way I can. When I saw the need of the tsunami victims, I sent a contribution to ADRA to help alleviate that need. I also pray for them. My brother collects good used clothing & I help him with the expenses sending them overseas to people who might benefit from them.

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I'm not asking you to defend your goodness. What I am saying is that no one knows, based on any book or rationale. I believe in the basic truths that life reveals, but to define it in one small narrow way and state that everyone has to believe that way to be saved doesn't hold up. So, if your belief brings you to a place of compassion, great. I don't have a problem with personal beliefs. I do have a problem when people assume that their belief is what everyone should believe.

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[:"blue"]If you can't or don't want to believe as I do, then believe as Jesus would want you to do.

[:"red"]"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" Jn 5:46,47 NKJ.

"...for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." Jn 8:24 NKJ.

"Watch out cynics; look hard - watch your world fall to pieces. I'm doing something right before your eyes that you won't believe though it's staring you in the face." Acts 13:41, "The Message". [/] [/]

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Right theology is no guarantee that one would live rightly. However, it is more difficult to live rightly if one's core beliefs are not right.

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This assumes that core beliefs are formed by thinking. This ignores that instinct, modeling, cultural values, life experience and the presence of God's spirit as being far more powerful than what we read.

Richard

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[:"blue"]Here is what the Bible tells me about the instincts, the thoughts, the cultural values & experiences of the natural man.

[:"red"]"The heart is deceitful above all things,

And desperately wicked;

Who can know it?" Jer 17:9 NKJ

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Gen 6:5 NKJ.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,

But the LORD weighs the hearts." Prov 21:2 NKJ. [/]

Therefore, I depend on Someone higher than myself to tell me what is right and wrong. [/]

Gerry

[DaveM1936]

Jesus is the gospel. The life He lived. The death and resurrection. What He did in heaven before coming to earth. What He is doing in heaven now and what He will do in the future. Jesus equals the gospel. Unless we are talkling about Jesus, we are not talking about the gospel.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Gerr]

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Jesus is the gospel. The life He lived. The death and resurrection. What He did in heaven before coming to earth. What He is doing in heaven now and what He will do in the future. Jesus equals the gospel. Unless we are talkling about Jesus, we are not talking about the gospel.

Your friend,

Dave M

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[:"blue"]So what was the gospel, the good news that was preached to the Israelites in the wilderness? See Heb 4:6. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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....your presentation is that of one who finds no joy in the Christian life here on earth.

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How so - because I state that we will be 100% sinners until the day we die?

Make your case man instead of these generalities.

Thanks

PS: Don't get upset if I give you a little advice back....

[Gregory Matthews]

Robert:

I have no problem with your responding to me when I post like that.

As to making my case: You have missed my point. I shared how you come accross to me. Others have shared in a simular manner. These are all subjective observations. They are not of the type where it is appropriate to "prove" them to you objectively. The issue is what you do with our observations. You can reject them as not being reality. And, they may not be reality. But, they continue to what we percieve in you. If you do not want to deal with that, it is O.K.

[cardw]

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First, you mentioned a hypothesis that the Bible might be a politicized document. No you are working from the standpoint that this hypothesis is true?

Now, Moses, Isaiah, Zechariah, the psalmists, all the other prophets, the disciples, & Paul all conspired to make a political statement? That is a proposition that is totally not credible to me.

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This is one way to simplify it, to make a point, but it is obviously not what I am saying. I think we can look at many of the things that the Isrealites did, such as killing every man, woman, child, and animal being politically defended by the statement that God told us to do that. Or we can see Abraham not sacrificing his son, but being willing to, as an apologetic to those nations who were saying that Isreal's devotion to their God was not as great because they weren't willing to sacrifice their own children. Here again, is a case where they present that God told them to do it this way and they point to Abraham as a hero because he was willing. Today we can't make sense of it because its totally outside our ethics to even be willing to kill our children and offer them up to God.

Now each generation has reinterpreted these writings into some kind of linear orderly revelation when its not. You have to read something besides the Bible to understand this, because when we come to the Bible with a pre-concieved assumption that its inspired in a manner that it is consistant with itself, we are going to create a scenerio where this could happen. This is one reason theology is so complicated. Its not because the writings are so wise. Its because they don't agree with each other and we have to come up with some pretty creative ways to keep it all together.

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If you can't or don't want to believe as I do, then believe as Jesus would want you to do.

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Well, again, if you read the history, there were groups who had a vested interest in creating Jesus in their own image. So quoting the Bible out of context doesn't really say what Jesus meant. Let me present spirituality in a different context. Deep spiritual truths appear to be self-contradictory or even ridiculous when expressed in words. A ready example is Jesus' famous saying "whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it." Luke 17:33 The statement flies in the face of logic.

We have been conditioned to treat rationality as sacred. But life itself is, in a very deep sense, absurd. It will not render itself to the tyranny of reason. In fact, humor, is often the only way to transform life into something bearable. Because seriousness creates obsession.

This is not to defy reason, but to recognize the limits of reason. Even the most wise cannot help be flabbergasted by a three year old that keeps asking why. Just ask yourself what is the reason for living. Life cannot be solved by the intellect. It is only "known" through the heart.

So quoting Jesus back to me as some type of proof, misses what Jesus is trying to say. And quoting back things, that when you understand Jesus' paradoxes, are obvious alterations to suit a particular belief the writer or writers had, doesn't bring forth a sense of "knowing."

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Here is what the Bible tells me about the instincts, the thoughts, the cultural values & experiences of the natural man.

"The heart is deceitful above all things,

And desperately wicked;

Who can know it?" Jer 17:9 NKJ

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Gen 6:5 NKJ.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,

But the LORD weighs the hearts." Prov 21:2 NKJ.

Therefore, I depend on Someone higher than myself to tell me what is right and wrong.

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So what is the higher power? Words on a page or a living spirit that dwells within us?

Is God's spirit going to limited by a human technology?

The written word is not God.

Richard

PS note from Stan, nothing was changed in this edit, just trying to figure out why this thread will not fit on one page

[cardw]

Quote:

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There is a difference between what one >>should believe<<

and what belief will give eternal life.

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The only difference I see is semantics. One tells me what I must believe, the other assumes what I must believe and tells me that it is really God saying it.

Richard

[Robert]

Whatever!