The gospel in a nutshell

[Gerr]

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Here is what the Bible tells me about the instincts, the thoughts, the cultural values & experiences of the natural man.

"The heart is deceitful above all things,

And desperately wicked;

Who can know it?" Jer 17:9 NKJ

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Gen 6:5 NKJ.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,

But the LORD weighs the hearts." Prov 21:2 NKJ.

Therefore, I depend on Someone higher than myself to tell me what is right and wrong.

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So what is the higher power? Words on a page or a living spirit that dwells within us?

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[:"blue"]And how do you know what spirit it is that is dwelling in you? whether it is the Spirit of God or demonic spirits? [/]

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Is God's spirit going to limited by a human technology?

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[:"blue"]No way!!! [/]

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The written word is not God.

Richard

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[:"blue"]No. But do you believe that the Bible which claims to be from God, IS the word from God?

Do you believe that Jesus was/is Divine AND the Savior of sinful man? [/]

Gerry

[cardw]

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And how do you know what spirit it is that is dwelling in you? whether it is the Spirit of God or demonic spirits?

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If I am open to God, then I have to assume that its God's spirit dwelling in me. I think we can look at fruits as well. If the devil has the ability to dwell in me without my consent, then we might as well cash it in.

I don't look to the spirit to define some doctrine for me for all time and every situation. I look to the spirit to provide insight on a moment by moment basis.

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No. But do you believe that the Bible which claims to be from God, IS the word from God?

Do you believe that Jesus was/is Divine AND the Savior of sinful man?

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I believe everything comes from God and that nothing is a complete description of God. I also don't believe that the Bible is THE word of God. I do believe there are some insights about God written by men.

I don't believe that Jesus was specially Divine, nor a Savior in terms of paying the penalty of sin. I see much evidence that He said that He was a son of man with Divine insight that is available to anyone who enters on the path that He described. I see Jesus directing us to a kingdom of heaven that is and was available already within each of us. The literalizing of his teaching has hidden much of its meaning.

But you knew that already.

Richard

[Robert]

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I don't believe that Jesus was specially Divine, nor a Savior in terms of paying the penalty of sin.

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Rom 5:10 ...when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him by the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"

[Robert]

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I believe everything comes from God

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Is 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ex 4:11 Who hath made man’s mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

[Robert]

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I see Jesus directing us to a kingdom of heaven that is and was available already within each of us.

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Legalism and self-righteousness abounds! I know for I have seen that verse misused again and again....You know, "The kingdom of heaven is within."

What you are doing is twisting it to say, "I am naturally good...I do not need a Savor"! Maybe that's why you see Christ's death as unimportant!

[Nicodema]

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The issue is what you do with our observations. You can reject them as not being reality. And, they may not be reality. But, they continue to what we percieve in you. If you do not want to deal with that, it is O.K.

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I disagree: it is NOT "OK" for someone to go on behaving abusively toward another. Where such observations are that another is being abusive, nasty, lying, or misrepresenting toward oneself, that other NEEDS to listen and something NEEDS to be done. Now, that other may not agree with the observations, and that is fine, but then s/he needs to cease or modify interaction insofar as the person stating the observation will still feel how they feel, and further interaction is likely to exacerbate said feelings. Those feelings must be acknowledged in a practical sense by amending behaviors that are offensive. That is the practical way to "put others before self."

When I tell someone I don't appreciate how they are treating me, it is NOT "OK" for them to just dismiss it as non-real. EVER. I would imagine it's the same for them when the proverbial shoe is on the other foot ... I am sure they would want me to listen to THEM too ...

[Robert]

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...When I tell someone I don't appreciate how they are treating me, it is NOT "OK" for them to just dismiss it as non-real.

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At the same time (i.e., as long as you are setting up behavior as a standard of conduct as in what is "OK" and what is not) then you must do as Christ - the ultimate standard of conduct! How did He handle genuine mistreatment?

And lastly, what did EGW have to say on this subject?

Is 53:5 "He [Christ] was oppressed and He was afflicted,

Yet He did not open His mouth...." What does this mean?

1 Peter 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, [i.e., how you should react]22 who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; 23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threat....

"Let us not stand in defense of self, and make a great ado because we are called to bear reproach and misrepresentation. Let us not pity ourselves...." [EV 625]

[Gregory Matthews]

Nico:

I see my comments as being more narrowly directed than you do. I did not intend for them to be expanded out in the direction that you have taken them.

Specifics:

a) My comments were directed to the statements: You appear to me to have no joy in the Christian life. You come accress to me as being legalistic, although I know you claim you are not.

My comments were not intended to apply to statements such as: You have been abusive to me.

[Gerr]

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And how do you know what spirit it is that is dwelling in you? whether it is the Spirit of God or demonic spirits?

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If I am open to God, then I have to assume that its God's spirit dwelling in me.

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[:"blue"]Assume? Assume when your eternal destiny is at stake?

[:"red"]"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 Jn 4:1 NKJ. [/] [/]

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I think we can look at fruits as well. If the devil has the ability to dwell in me without my consent, then we might as well cash it in.

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[:"blue"]We give the devil permission to come in when we choose error in place of truth.

[:"red"]"By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is NOT of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world." 1 Jn 4:2,3 NKJ. [/] [/]

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I don't look to the spirit to define some doctrine for me for all time and every situation. I look to the spirit to provide insight on a moment by moment basis.

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No. But do you believe that the Bible which claims to be from God, IS the word from God?

Do you believe that Jesus was/is Divine AND the Savior of sinful man?

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I believe everything comes from God and that nothing is a complete description of God. I also don't believe that the Bible is THE word of God. I do believe there are some insights about God written by men.

I don't believe that Jesus was specially Divine, nor a Savior in terms of paying the penalty of sin.

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[:"blue"]All I can say to you, friend, is that you are standing on quicksand. [/]

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I see much evidence that He said that He was a son of man with Divine insight that is available to anyone who enters on the path that He described. I see Jesus directing us to a kingdom of heaven that is and was available already within each of us. The literalizing of his teaching has hidden much of its meaning.

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[:"blue"]Kingdom of heaven already within each of us? The divinity within each of us? Sounds like Hinduism/New Age theology to me. [/]

Gerry

But you knew that already.

Richard

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[Robert]

Gerry,

While we do not agree on what being "under law" means, I agree with your arguments here. The problem is that Richard does not believe in the Bible as a book of authority - a revelation from God through His instruments. Seeing that is the case, you are (in my mind) wasting your time....In this respect your platform is built on the Rock, while Richard's is built in the sand of humanism and men's logic/reason.

[cardw]

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I see Jesus directing us to a kingdom of heaven that is and was available already within each of us.

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Legalism and self-righteousness abounds! I know for I have seen that verse misused again and again....You know, "The kingdom of heaven is within."

What you are doing is twisting it to say, "I am naturally good...I do not need a Savor"! Maybe that's why you see Christ's death as unimportant!

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I think you need me to be saying this so that you can have a counterpoint. There is suffering in this world and people do evil things. But if we are to live in Grace, passing judgement isn't really a part of growth.

You are passing judgement on me by stating my beliefs for me in exaggerated ways and saying that I am self righteous. There are several errors in your statements of my beliefs.

1. I did not say that I was naturally good. I have no interest in determining if I am good or bad. Did not Jesus say that there is no one good other than the Father? If that is true then the angels aren't good and even Jesus would not be claiming to be good.

2. I may not need a Savior in your terms, but that does not mean that I don't need help.

3. I did not say that Jesus' death was unimportant.

You practice dishonesty. I tell you as clearly as I can, what I believe, and you distort those beliefs. If one is in the search for truth, dishonesty will make sure you don't find it.

Richard

[cardw]

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Assume? Assume when your eternal destiny is at stake?

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 Jn 4:1 NKJ.

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This is not talking about a personal spirit within. Its talking about the Spirit of Prophecy. That's quite a different thing. I tested one spirit of prophecy and its fruits are shame and blame. So, yes we better test what people are saying. The way I test it, is to see if it does what it claims. It doesn't matter how many quotes something has behind it. If it doesn't do what it says, then its false advertising. We apply this principle to everything else we do, except the Bible and in some cases Ellen White.

This whole idea that my eternity is at stake is based on fear. Its inconsistant with the idea that perfect love casts out all fear. I see people, every day, who are scared to death that God doesn't like them because of some minor detail they haven't taken care of. They live lives of desparation and fear. I have observed enough to realize that, no matter what the denomination, this idea that I need to please God to be saved from terrible torture and destruction is not only unattainable, because there are so many definitions of what God wants, but it creates obsession and addiction.

These are the fruits and I don't have to look very far to find people living like this. So either God gives us Grace, which is not concerned with judging good, bad, right or wrong, but in quality of life, or God believes that fear will straighten us up.

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All I can say to you, friend, is that you are standing on quicksand.

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You see, when it really comes down to it, all you have is fear. You couldn't have illustrated my point more perfectly.

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Kingdom of heaven already within each of us? The divinity within each of us? Sounds like Hinduism/New Age theology to me.

Gerry

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What do you do with these statements from the Bible?

1 Corinthians 4:20

For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

Romans 14:17 

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Matt 4:17

From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Matthew 5:3

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

These last two are present tense. The kingdom of heaven was already there.

Luke 17:20-21 

Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, `Look, here it is!' or, `There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

Let me ask you this. Does not the bible state that God dwells within us. If God dwells within us, would not the place that God dwells be the kingdom of God?

Are we not a temple for God to dwell in. This is hardly a hindu/new age idea.

Richard

[cardw]

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In this respect your platform is built on the Rock, while Richard's is built in the sand of humanism and men's logic/reason.

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But Robert, you are using human reason and logic to determine what the Bible is saying. And in terms of the Bible being an authority, you won't find anything much more vigorous than the Bible saying that it is useful for teaching. It is useful.

But you have to use human logic to draw anything out of any written document. The Bible is a collection of many books put together by men and arbitrarily said to be authoritative. It has been human logic that had determined the state of how we understand the Bible today. Don't you think Paul was using logic when he debated his point of view?

To appeal to an imaginary Rock is to appeal to magic.

Richard

[Robert]

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1. I did not say that I was naturally good. I have no interest in determining if I am good or bad. Did not Jesus say that there is no one good other than the Father? If that is true then the angels aren't good and even Jesus would not be claiming to be good.

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The rich young ruler asked, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”

Please note he addressed Christ as a teacher (most likely a teacher of the law) and not as the Son of God. In other words he considered Christ a mere man.

And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me [a mere teacher] about what is good? There is only One who is good...

When Jesus made this statement where was He? Right, in this world - a world under the power of sin [self]. Jesus wasn't referring to the unfallen angels or other worlds.

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2. I may not need a Savior in your terms, but that does not mean that I don't need help.

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You need more then help....You need a redeemed humanity! That you have "in Christ" (if you have accepted your deliverance from under the curse)....Without this fact you have no future.

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3. I did not say that Jesus' death was unimportant.

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Actually our death "in Christ" is absolutely essential if God is going to maintain integrity to His law that justly condemns us to eternal death. Jesus as man illustrates His selfless love, but just as important it legally answers the just demands of God's law....

[Robert]

2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture [:"red"]is inspired by God[/] and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

If one teaches from the Bible it must be a source of authority! If I teach calculus then someone who understands the intricacies of advance mathematics better be its author [my source]. Guess work is not acceptable...The same is true of the Bible....It is the source to derive truth....Therefore it must be authoritative because it is "God breathed".

[cardw]

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You need more then help....You need a redeemed humanity! That you have "in Christ" (if you have accepted your deliverance from under the curse)....Without this fact you have no future.

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You know Robert. I did all this stuff you are talking about. The bottom line was, it didn't work. I still felt pretty lousy, I didn't feel delivered, I felt weighed down even more. What I believe in now actually works and brings about the things that Jesus talks about. So you can quote all you want and unless it brings about changes that I can experience it is simply words.

Richard

[Robert]

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You need more then help....You need a redeemed humanity! That you have "in Christ" (if you have accepted your deliverance from under the curse)....Without this fact you have no future.

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You know Robert. I did all this stuff you are talking about. The bottom line was, it didn't work. I still felt pretty lousy, I didn't feel delivered, I felt weighed down even more....So you can quote all you want and unless it brings about changes that I can experience it is simply words.

Richard

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And there's your problem!!!! Experience is not faith....Faith says, "I am complete 'in Christ' because of what He did 2000 years ago." Faith says, "I am complete 'in Him.'" However, your feelings (your experience) will tell you must experience changes (victory over sin) before you can have the assurance of salvation. You cannot put your trust in your works (your experience), rather put it in the God who has saved you through His doing and dying.

[cardw]

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And there's your problem!!!! Experience is not faith....Faith says, "I am complete 'in Christ' because of what He did 2000 years ago." Faith says, "I am complete 'in Him.'" However, your feelings (your experience) will tell you must experience changes (victory over sin) before you can have the assurance of salvation. You cannot put your trust in your works (your experience), rather put it in the God who has saved you through His doing and dying.

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Well Robert you've mentioned a number of things and mixed and matched them. Lets list them....

Feelings

Experience

Works

Victory over Sin

You have listed the first three as the same thing. Feelings=experience=works.

You then made the assumption that I am linking victory over sin with, what I believe you mean, eternal salvation.

I have made no such statement, nor am I now. So you are responding to things I don't believe. I am not concerned with eternal salvation. What I am examining is the qualities of life that can be found now through a spiritual journey. This is completely independent of the eternal salvation issue in my belief.

Now in my experience, following the belief system that you outline brought me to a point where I no longer wanted to live. And if I engage in that system of belief I find myself moving back into dispair.

Now, when I follow the spiritual path that I have now, I find joy, love for other people, a willingness to engage constructively in community, and doing it, not out of a sense of duty, but because I find joy in it. When sorrow comes my way, I have tools for being present, patient, and a way to heal that sorrow.

Now, you tell me which one I am going to follow. The path of so called faith that brings dispair, or the path that brings joy?

When I look at the fruits, and fruits is what Jesus said to look at, I find the evidence overwhelmingly present along my current path.

If you need a couple of bible quotes, here they are....

1 Corinthians 4:20

For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

Romans 14:17 

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Richard

[Gerr]

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All I can say to you, friend, is that you are standing on quicksand.

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You see, when it really comes down to it, all you have is fear. You couldn't have illustrated my point more perfectly.

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[:"blue"]Fear? No way, friend. Years ago, while selling books during the summer during my college days, I was driven out of one house with a rifle. I experienced no fear then. I just had a cancerous kidney removed in December and experienced no fear whatsoever then. Why should I be afraid now? I have complete assurance that no matter what happens to me, I am in the Lord's care, that nothing bad happens or can happen to me without my Father's permission, so I am perfectly at peace. The only thing I fear is that after having shared the gospel to others, I myself would be "a castaway." [/]

Gerry

[cardw]

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You see, when it really comes down to it, all you have is fear. You couldn't have illustrated my point more perfectly.

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I have complete assurance that no matter what happens to me, I am in the Lord's care, that nothing bad happens or can happen to me without my Father's permission, so I am perfectly at peace. The only thing I fear is that after having shared the gospel to others, I myself would be "a castaway."

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I wasn't saying that you had fear personally. What I am saying is that rather than deal with my points, you use fear as a rationale. When it comes down to it, when you don't have an answer, the bottom line is the use of fear.

And you aren't the only one who has this as the bottom line among Christian believers. When I talk with those whose beliefs that aren't exclusive, their bottom line is generally do what brings you love. Now, when I compare this to most Christian believers, whose line is, "If you don't believe the way we believe, God is going to either kill you or God is going to torture you for all eternity."

This is where it ends up when all other methods fail. Fear and threats. It becomes hard to believe that the bottom line is Love.

Richard

[Gerr]

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And you aren't the only one who has this as the bottom line among Christian believers. When I talk with those whose beliefs that aren't exclusive, their bottom line is generally do what brings you love. Now, when I compare this to most Christian believers, whose line is, "If you don't believe the way we believe, God is going to either kill you or God is going to torture you for all eternity."

This is where it ends up when all other methods fail. Fear and threats. It becomes hard to believe that the bottom line is Love.

Richard

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[:"blue"]I agree whole-heartedly that the bottom line IS Love. However, there is something you might want to consider, Richard.

I see three levels of motivating people.

1. Fear - do what I tell you OR ELSE.

2. Faith - do what you are told because you believe the person telling you what to do.

3. Love - you do what that person tells you to do because you know him/her & love him/her.

Unfortunately, too many people are stuck in # 1 or at best in # 2. All dictators probably operate in level 1 alone. Democracies tend to operate on the first two. God wants us to reach & operate at max, i.e. level 3. But in trying to get people's attention, I find that God also uses # 1 when necessary. In the journey through life, however, salvation begins at level 2, and sanctification moves the believer from level 1 to the goal, which is level 3.

[:"red"] "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of LOVE, and of a sound mind." 2 Tim 1:7 NKJ [/]

Gerry

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[Nicodema]

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unless it brings about changes that I can experience it is simply words.

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I agree. if we are promised a changed heart and a changed life, it is consistent with real faith to expect to experience those changes, not to have to merely pretend they are happening. I don't call the latter "faith" at all -- I call it pretense. I don't believe God expects us to lack a real and vibrant experience in and with Himself, in favor of pretending written words are a sufficient substitute for His presence and direct agency.

[cardw]

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I see three levels of motivating people.

1. Fear - do what I tell you OR ELSE.

2. Faith - do what you are told because you believe the person telling you what to do.

3. Love - you do what that person tells you to do because you know him/her & love him/her.

Unfortunately, too many people are stuck in # 1 or at best in # 2. All dictators probably operate in level 1 alone. Democracies tend to operate on the first two. God wants us to reach & operate at max, i.e. level 3. But in trying to get people's attention, I find that God also uses # 1 when necessary. In the journey through life, however, salvation begins at level 2, and sanctification moves the believer from level 1 to the goal, which is level 3.

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I've heard this arguement before. To me, it appears to be simply an apologetic to justify the reported behavior of God in the Old Testament and in the New Testament when God supposedly kills someone or is going to burn the wicked. This is motivated by the desire to make the Bible as one book that is authoritative and consistant. This has little to do with what makes sense.

I can see using fear as a warning to keep people safe. Like, don't run into the street because you might get hit by a car. If we do it like God, we would say don't run into the street otherwise you will be stoned. Or don't break my laws, otherwise I'm going to kill you eventually. Oh, by the way, you really can't keep the laws because you have a sinful nature, a gift you were given at birth by no choice of your own. And if you do keep them, your deeds are filthy rags. And if that doesn't scare you enough, you better have faith, because that's the only way you are going to be saved. And your faith better produce fruit, otherwise its not real. So, you can't work your way to heaven and if your faith doesn't produce fruit, you're out of luck as well. This is the mess that is called Christianity today. No wonder you say...

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The only thing I fear is that after having shared the gospel to others, I myself would be "a castaway."

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Seems pretty iffy to me. What I have observed is that Christian shame based teaching creates the disease and then jumps in to "cure" it with the magic words, "I take Jesus as my Savior." And if I don't buy that they come at me with the judgement that I'm not humble enough or my pride is getting in the way.

When I'm not trying to prove that I am humble. I'm not trying to earn anything. What I am trying to do is move through this life practicing as much love as I can. I am trying to find healing for those areas that I am ignorant of. I'm trying to connect with God and the community around me. I do this because it brings me peace and contentment. It feels good to do these things. That's the whole point. Aren't we trying to get to heaven because it will bring joy and peace and be a whole lotta fun? Well, when I read Jesus, he says there are sorrows in the world, but there is a kingdom of God within available now, where one can find joy and peace no matter what is going on in the world.

That I can test and see if its true. Some heaven and hell to come is simply words in an ancient book.

Richard

[Nicodema]

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What I have observed is that Christian shame based teaching creates the disease and then jumps in to "cure" it with the magic words, "I take Jesus as my Savior." And if I don't buy that they come at me with the judgement that I'm not humble enough or my pride is getting in the way.

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Richard I noticed the same thing some years ago myself, and gave it a name: I dubbed it the Dumbo's Magic Feather syndrome. (I also call it "churchianity" as opposed to Christianity which I believe is following the truth taught by Jesus.) You are so right when you say all the shame-based stuff creates the disease that it purports to cure later in the logic sequence. Just like Dumbo's magic feather makes him (presumably) able to fly long enough for him to discover he doesn't need the feather to fly. (I'm not suggesting we don't need Christ; I AM suggesting we don't need all the fear, guilt, and shame garbage in the equation to get where we're trying to go. It is, in fact, just extra baggage to be discarded.)

[Taylor]

There is a quote that says "He who doesn't stand for something will fall for anything."

Some things have to be accepted by faith. I can't see or touch God, orJesus, or the Holy Spirit. However, I believe in the Bible, in Jesus and God because I have seen the very real changes that have come to people's lives from the power of God as found in the Bible, not someone else's writings of their own ideas. That is the biggest evidence of divine intervention, of truth as it is found in the Bible. A leopard can't change his spots but God can change the hear and life of a person so much that you wouldn't even recognize that they used to have spots. Oh sure, pop psychology, and many good "help groups" can make a difference but the lasting change only comes through the Power of God, through Jesus Christ. You can't see gravity but you can see the effect of gravity. You can't see the wind but you can feel it and see the evidence of it having passed through, therefore you know there was wind, or there is gravity.

If someone on here does not believe in the Bible or God that is ok, but lasting peace and eternal life are only found through God. God never forces anyone so everyone is free to believe what they want to believe, but that doesn't make the truth change. God loves everyone, individually and collectively and the Bible has the answers for today's problems as well as yesteryday's issues. Jesus showed us what God was like by living a life for us here on this earth for us to emulate. Can we do this on our own, no, or at least not for long but with God's help we can find that "peace that passes all understanding" even in the midst of the storms of life. That doesn't mean we will ever feel we have "arrived" as there is always room for growth but we will be so grateful for the stabelizing, truth that we have found in Jesus Christ and the Bible.

Taylor