Moderators Gerr Posted March 1, 2005 Moderators Share Posted March 1, 2005 Quote: Quote: The only thing I fear is that after having shared the gospel to others, I myself would be "a castaway." Seems pretty iffy to me. [:"blue"]Iffy? And what certainty do you have or can offer? As Paul said, "I know whom I have believed." Or as Peter said, "We have not followed cunningly devised fables." Christians have certainty because the tomb is empty! [/] Quote: What I have observed is that Christian shame based teaching creates the disease and then jumps in to "cure" it with the magic words, "I take Jesus as my Savior." And if I don't buy that they come at me with the judgement that I'm not humble enough or my pride is getting in the way. [:"blue"]"Christian shame based teaching?" The shame of sin & its consequences are not Christian inventions. It is a fact we all see & experience everyday. What Christianity offers is a solution to the problem. May I ask what solution do you have for the sin problem? [/] Quote: When I'm not trying to prove that I am humble. I'm not trying to earn anything. What I am trying to do is move through this life practicing as much love as I can. I am trying to find healing for those areas that I am ignorant of. I'm trying to connect with God and the community around me. I do this because it brings me peace and contentment. It feels good to do these things. That's the whole point. Aren't we trying to get to heaven because it will bring joy and peace and be a whole lotta fun? Well, when I read Jesus, he says there are sorrows in the world, but there is a kingdom of God within available now, where one can find joy and peace no matter what is going on in the world. That I can test and see if its true. Some heaven and hell to come is simply words in an ancient book. Richard [:"blue"]Do you believe there is a heaven or hell? If so, since you don't believe in the Bible as authoritative, how does one go to heaven or to gell? Gerry [/] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Quote: Iffy? And what certainty do you have or can offer? I can offer no certainty and apparently neither can you. That is my point. From a rational point of view there is no certainty. People talk about the Bible as if its a certainty. Its simply something we make up to help us feel better. Not that there is anything wrong with that. You might call if faith. I am open to things that do what they claim. When they don't I look for something else or I modify it until it begins to fit. We do that, as a matter of course, for most things. It seems like we abandon all sense when it comes to religion. Quote: "Christian shame based teaching?" The shame of sin & its consequences are not Christian inventions. It is a fact we all see & experience everyday. What Christianity offers is a solution to the problem. May I ask what solution do you have for the sin problem? What I have been offering all along. A loving community of people that expresses the love of God. That's really the only tangible evidence we have that this whole Christian transformation of character really exists. Quote: Do you believe there is a heaven or hell? If so, since you don't believe in the Bible as authoritative, how does one go to heaven or to gell? Well, if you had really read what I posted, you might understand that I would read these as metaphors for what happens to us now. Since there can be an inner heaven, I know there is an inner hell. I have experienced both. As far as heaven or gell, I stopped using gell in the 80s. I have stated that the Bible is useful, which is the term some translations use for how the Bible is to be treated. Useful and authoritative are two different functions. What is authoritative to me is consistant results. Or to use the Biblical term, fruits. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 2, 2005 Moderators Share Posted March 2, 2005 Quote: Quote: Iffy? And what certainty do you have or can offer? I can offer no certainty and apparently neither can you. That is my point. From a rational point of view there is no certainty. [:"blue"]In that case, I prefer my uncertainty over yours. [/] Quote: People talk about the Bible as if its a certainty. [:"blue"]That is because, [:"red"]"We did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty." 2 Pet 1:16 NKJ. [/] [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 2, 2005 Moderators Share Posted March 2, 2005 Quote: I am open to things that do what they claim. When they don't I look for something else or I modify it until it begins to fit. We do that, as a matter of course, for most things. It seems like we abandon all sense when it comes to religion. [:"blue"] On the contrary, the Bible's explanation of what I see around me is the only thing that makes perfect sense to me. [/] ] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Quote: On the contrary, the Bible's explanation of what I see around me is the only thing that makes perfect sense to me. ] Gerry Obviously, it makes sense to you. And that's fine. The problem, for me, is when someone states it as if it should make sense to everyone. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Quote: That is because, "We did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty." 2 Pet 1:16 NKJ. You quote this as if its some kind of proof. Its a little too self conscious. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 3, 2005 Moderators Share Posted March 3, 2005 Quote: Quote: On the contrary, the Bible's explanation of what I see around me is the only thing that makes perfect sense to me. ] Gerry Obviously, it makes sense to you. And that's fine. The problem, for me, is when someone states it as if it should make sense to everyone. Richard [:"blue"]"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." ! Cor 1:18 NKJ [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 This is a portion of another post, but I think it applies here as well. This is from the book, "The Zen Teachings of Jesus" Quote: Christians are often quick to quote from the Bible, but their understanding of the Bible is a result of indoctrination rather than a product of personal realization. As such, it lacks guenuineness. Harold Bloom makes this comment on the idea of Biblical inerrancy. "One of the great ironies of Protestant history is that the exaltation of scripture, which in the seventeenth century endowed Baptists and other Protestants with freedom from institutional constraints and with spiritual autonomy, has become, as the twentieth century closes, the agent for depriving Baptists and other Protestants of their Christian Liberty, their soul competency to read and interpret the Bible, each person by her own Inner Light." Sociologist Ellen Rosenberg makes the following observation about Bible worship: "As the code words have become 'Bible inerrancy,' the Bible itself is less read than preached, less interpreted than brandished....The Bible has become a talisman." Essentially you ignored the paradoxial aspects of your presentation and my points all together, and decided to quote scripture, expecting it to magically make your point. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Quote: What I have been offering all along. A loving community of people that expresses the love of God. That's really the only tangible evidence we have that this whole Christian transformation of character really exists. That is the one thing in life I have never had the privilege to experience. Ever. Closest I came was in the O.T.O. for a brief time but Thelemites can be very rough-and-tumble socially and emotionally, and it only takes one nippy puppy to sour the litter. I would sorely love to experience what Richard is talking about. Somewhere. Anywhere. Someday. Without anyone ruining it. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Have you read Steps to Christ recently? I have been having a pity party resently. When I find myself slipping, or doubting the Lord and my connection with Him, I read again either Steps or DA. It seems to me that you depend a lot on impressions or your own feelings. Instead read the promises in the Bible and EGW. Years ago, Elder Coon gave a series of sermons at the Village church in Berrien Springs. He had written a book, "THe ABC's of prayer." A = Ask the Lord for what you want. B = Believe your prayer has been heard. C = Claim the promise. Many say the God often says no. I do not beleive that. He either gives us what we want, or He gives us something better, or He tests our persistence. My favorite promise is found in Isa 27. Isa 27:1-5 1 In that day, the LORD will punish with his sword, his fierce, great and powerful sword, Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea. 2 In that day-- "Sing about a fruitful vineyard: 3 I, the LORD, watch over it; I water it continually. I guard it day and night so that no one may harm it. 4 I am not angry. If only there were briers and thorns confronting me! I would march against them in battle; I would set them all on fire. 5 Or else let them come to me for refuge; let them make peace with me, yes, let them make peace with me." (NIV) Notice the list of things God promises to do FOR US: 1. Slay Satan 2. God watches over us. 3. God waters us (supplies our basic needs) 4. Guards us from anything and anyone who would detroy or harm us. 5. God is NEVER angry with us no matter what we do. 6. All He wants to burn are the briars and throns in our character. 7. When confronted with any foe, inside or outside, He invites us to run to Him for refuge. 8. There is no warfare between God and you. It takes two to have a war. Since God is not fighting, then all you are asked to do is accept the peace treaty He offers. Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Dave, thanks for the promises -- AND your beautiful 1-8 summary of them -- AND the reminder about reading SC and/or DA (both good choices for keeping the connection alive). Especially SC I have found useful for this, it is so practical. Right now in this period of life I'm mainly frustrated by a general sense of disconnect in my head. Consciously-directed cognitive functions have become difficult for me. I can "free flow" just fine on a subject or idea, but if I attempt to focus, concentrate, or organize it is shot. I'm not sure how much of it is something wrong with me (~20 years of being controlled by someone/something else besides oneself will do that, I suppose) and how much of it is caused by the medication I'm on. I don't like it. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Quote: Consciously-directed cognitive functions I don't know what this phrase means. Could you explain it. What kind of medications are you on? Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Consciously-directed cognitive functions ... deliberate engagement and exercise of the thinking faculty upon something in particular, as opposed to just "cogitating" on something which is random rumination, not directed, much more free-flowing ... these are just my concepts, they aren't professional terms or anything that I'm aware of. I guess it's the difference between doing/directing the thinking as an active agent making it happen, versus having the thinking just "go on" inside your head where you experience it as something that happens TO you. I find the former difficult, though the latter is quite easy. I'm on medication under a doctor's care and supervision for a particular condition that I'd rather not discuss here, since it is somewhat personal in nature. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 Quote: Many say the God often says no. I do not beleive that. He either gives us what we want, or He gives us something better, or He tests our persistence. Depends.... "You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures." James 4:2,3 If we ask with wrong motives He will not answer our requests.... Just a side note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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