Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature

[SarahAnne]

Hi, I'm new here, and I'm not really sure if this is the ideal place to post this question. If it's not a moderator is welcome to move it.

I'm a SDA high school student who's very interested in English Literature. I'm seriously considering taking it in college and teaching it. However, having grown up in a very conservative home, I still see a certain inconsistency in much of cannon literature and strict SDA principles. I'm interested in hearing thoughts from both "conservative" and "liberal" sides. (I'm sorry for the use of those words, but I'm sure you all understand my basic meaning.)

What are your views of fiction? What about Shakespeare? What were/are the ideas on literature in the SDA environment of which you were/are a part?

[Dr. Rich]

Welcome SarahAnne! (Same name as my Grandaughter) My educated opinion is not worth much here, but if not for the wonderful and thoughtful instruction of my English teacher at Union College (the late Mrs. Hagglegantz) I would not have even wanted to open a book and read it. She actually shared with me a whole new world out there even though most of it was, and understood, as fiction. Of course I started with Shakespeare, but soon ventured out into the would of other writers.

Since then, I have focused my study on what is fact or fiction in regards to the bible as we have it today--both the new and old testament. There is no such thing as 'conservative' or 'liberal' sides to the cannon, it is either fact or fiction. Please forgive the many sentence structure errors. English lit helps one to discover the many meanings of different words. Good luck.

[SarahAnne]

Thanks for the welcome, Dr. Rich! What I meant by 'conservative' and 'liberal' is that some SDAs are fervently against Shakespeare, all fiction, and most lit in general. Others, not reading EGW the same way, are comfortable reading most literature, even if it may sometimes contradict SDA or Christian principles. Do I make myself clear?

My mother, for example, was rather concerned when she found I was reading Shakespeare. I think it will be very disturbing for her if I pursue English lit.

[Dr. Rich]

Hmmm? I see your point. Does she listen to the radio, watch tv or read a news paper? How does one know what is fact or fiction without first studying it and to do that one must first read it. Take the little book called "The Shack" for instance. It is fiction, but it is a wonderful book to get a picture of God even though I don't fully agree with it.

Many have read EGW's books thinking that they are not fiction. (I am not saying they are or not, that you must find out for yourself.) Well, how would one know if they refused to study them along with what other people wrote in the same time period.

Here is the thing: What caused your mother to believe that reading fiction is a sin--or is wrong? Find the answer to this and you will have a start on knowing how to make her happy.

[SarahAnne]

Here is the thing: What caused your mother to believe that reading fiction is a sin--or is wrong? Find the answer to this and you will have a start on knowing how to make her happy.

She ardently believes Mrs. White's writings, which it must be admitted certainly put a great damper even on what might be considered innocent fiction. I've read the quotes myself and I don't know how I'd get around them except if I rejected the idea that Mrs. White is Divinely inspired.

The rest of your question is somewhat ambiguous to me. She doesn't really have much to do with newspapers, news, etc, but though those things may be falsely presented, I do believe there is difference in that kind of 'fiction' and that in a classic novel.

[Dr. Rich]

My wife has a good idea. Have you gone to the bible book store and found any books by "Ginny Aiken" or "James Scott Bell" or "Dee Henderson" or "Kingsbury" or "Smalley & Kingsbury"? Personally, I like the whole set of Dee Henderson's and I would bet your mother would too IF you could get her to read them. If you haven't read them yourself, then perhaps you could start here and then let her read what you are reading. They all are fiction, but are truly wonderful 'stories' for the christian readier.

[John317]

Quote:

SarahAnne:

She ardently believes Mrs. White's writings, which it must be admitted certainly put a great damper even on what might be considered innocent fiction. I've read the quotes myself and I don't know how I'd get around them except if I rejected the idea that Mrs. White is Divinely inspired.

Hi SarahAnne: Welcome to the Forum. I'm very glad you've decided to join our discussions here. As you can see, we have lots of fun talking about all kinds of interesting (and some not-so-interesting) topics. For me this subject has a lot of interest. I studied literature and got a BA in it from CA State U, as well as a degree in theology from an SDA University.

Let me begin by saying that there are many SDAs who believe in Ellen White's prophetic ministry and also love studying and reading literature. A good friend of mine has taught literature at La Sierra Adventist Academy for over 20 years, and he definitely believes in Ellen White as a prophet of God. (I may be able to connect you with him, since he's given years of thought to the very question you've posed.) I myself also love literature and am a firm believer in Ellen White as God's messenger to the remnant church.

How can I do this? Because Ellen White wasn't talking about what I call "serious literature." She primarily had in mind "popular literature." I realize this distinction can be abused and misunderstood and become an excuse to read all kinds of bad material, but if a person is sincere and honest with themselves and with God, they will not attempt to abuse or take advantage of the distinction.

The important point is that there's a difference between literature that teaches something valuable and literature that has almost no redeeming value.

This is just the beginning of my response to you. I have to go to bed now, since it's 5:45 in the morning here in CA. I'll return to this and add more, later.

Quote:

SarahAnne: I do believe there is difference in that kind of 'fiction' and that in a classic novel.

You're right, there is; and I look forward to talking about this with you when I come back in a few hours.

Until then, happy reading of good literature.

Who are some of your favorite writers and/or poets?

Mine are (to give a short list) Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Isaac Babel, Guy de Maupassaunt, Thackeray, Thomas Hardy, Jane Austin, Mark Twain, Mr. Ernest Hemingway, and William Faulkner. My favorite poets are Shakespeare, Milton, Edmund Spenser, Wordsworth and Keats.

[SarahAnne]

ARE you planing on teacching lititure in school

after you go to college??? if so you would have

to teach in a public school....

they have a lot of stories and books in the ABC

that people can read and enjoy

If I do take Literature I would like to teach it, and ideally at a college level, I think. But teaching positions are very, very hard to come by. I guess the public school issue might be part of my problem, because there may be some literature I just wouldn't feel comfortable teaching. (If I could just teach poets - say Wordsworth and Milton - I'm sure my mother would have absolutely no problem with it.)

I grew up on (mostly true) story books from ABC, and while I still appreciate them, one advances to the point that they seem rather too light. It's not about a need to be reading something, it's about having this pull towards the great classics.

[SarahAnne]

John317, your comments have been very helpful and interesting, especially coming from someone who has an understanding of great literature!

Quote:

I studied literature and got a BA in it from CA State U, as well as a degree in theology from an SDA University.

Fascinating! I look forward to more discussion with you!

Quote:

Let me begin by saying that there are many SDAs who believe in Ellen White's prophetic ministry and also love studying and reading literature. A good friend of mine has taught literature at La Sierra Adventist Academy for over 20 years, and he definitely believes in Ellen White as a prophet of God. (I may be able to connect you with him, since he's given years of thought to the very question you've posed.) I myself also love literature and am a firm believer in Ellen White as God's messenger to the remnant church.

This is comforting to me, as it seems like this literature question has been seriously shaking my faith. May I ask what authors he taught? (Well, maybe you don't know, and that's okay. I don't want to cause the poor man inconvenience, but I'd be interested in hearing more of his views and conclusions.)

Quote:

How can I do this? Because Ellen White wasn't talking about what I call "serious literature." She primarily had in mind "popular literature." I realize this distinction can be abused and misunderstood and become an excuse to read all kinds of bad material, but if a person is sincere and honest with themselves and with God, they will not attempt to abuse or take advantage of the distinction.

Quote:

SarahAnne: I do believe there is difference in that kind of 'fiction' and that in a classic novel.

You're right, there is; and I look forward to talking about this with you when I come back in a few hours

.

I fully understand your point in the context of poetry. However, I'd be interested in what you believe Mrs. White would have considered "serious" versus "popular" in her day. After all, great classics from Dickens, the Brontes, George Elliot, Thackeray, etc. were becoming "popular" in her day. (Forgive me if the time periods are a little mixed up.) Yet today they are considered literature. She also condemned "Uncle Tom's Cabin" - which is (from what I've heard) a serious work.

Quote:

Who are some of your favorite writers and/or poets?

Mine are (to give a short list) Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Isaac Babel, Guy de Maupassaunt, Thackeray, Thomas Hardy, Jane Austin, Mark Twain, Mr. Ernest Hemingway, and William Faulkner. My favorite poets are Shakespeare, Milton, Edmund Spenser, Wordsworth and Keats.

Poets:: Wordsworth and Milton probably rank tops. I do enjoy some of the easier poets, like Tennyson, Longfellow and Whittier. I'm also getting into Donne and the Brownings. And I can't forget Emily Dickinson, whom I adore! There are a lot of others too, of course. And I was just thinking last night that I must read more Keats.

Novelists: I tend to read a lot of Victorian novels by women, thus the Brontes and Elliot. Love Jane Austen (not Victorian, of course). I'm currently reading "Vanity Fair". I have to expand my horizons in this area. Dickens, Dostoevsky, Faulkner and Woolf are high on my Must Read list.

And I can't forget Shakespeare, who I've just scratched the surface with. I've been reading a few sonnets a week, through an email program, and frankly I'm finding some a bit redundant. But I do enjoy the plays.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Thanks for the welcome, Dr. Rich! What I meant by 'conservative' and 'liberal' is that some SDAs are fervently against Shakespeare, all fiction, and most lit in general. Others, not reading EGW the same way, are comfortable reading most literature, even if it may sometimes contradict SDA or Christian principles. Do I make myself clear?

My mother, for example, was rather concerned when she found I was reading Shakespeare. I think it will be very disturbing for her if I pursue English lit.

If you go to an SDA college (presuming you will) why should your mother be disturbed by anything that is taught?

[SivartM]

Wow, another high-schooler!

I read a lot in a variety of genres. My family's general outlook on literature is anything goes as long as it's not outright inappropriate. I sometimes struggle with wondering whether I should be reading, say, a philosophy book from a non-Christian viewpoint. I get sort of worried reading Ellen's warnings about "infidel authors" and all that, but I don't know...

I think that Ellen was more concerned about people believing in other people's opinions more than in the Bible. But I'm interested in hearing what everyone here has to say also.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: SarahAnne

Thanks for the welcome, Dr. Rich! What I meant by 'conservative' and 'liberal' is that some SDAs are fervently against Shakespeare, all fiction, and most lit in general. Others, not reading EGW the same way, are comfortable reading most literature, even if it may sometimes contradict SDA or Christian principles. Do I make myself clear?

My mother, for example, was rather concerned when she found I was reading Shakespeare. I think it will be very disturbing for her if I pursue English lit.

If you go to an SDA college (presuming you will) why should your mother be disturbed by anything that is taught?

le touche'

g

Welcome Sara, and blessings to you.

[SarahAnne]

If you go to an SDA college (presuming you will) why should your mother be disturbed by anything that is taught?

Well, my mother could easily be disturbed by subjects taught in SDA colleges. She's very conservative, and believes that some of our colleges have degenerated. Last time she was in one of our colleges (before she married and had me) she had friends with whom she agreed, that were making an issue about reading Shakespeare for English. Incidentally, the English teacher was her high school room-mate and friend. But, with more (for lack of a better word) 'liberal' views, this friend was upset at the ministerial students who objected to the reading material. I believe she quit teaching English because of the to-do. (That's probably all very confusing to read. lol)

And then there's no saying I'd go to an SDA, or even a Christian college to take literature.

[John317]

My suggestion would be to take your first year of English at a junior college where it's a lot less expensive. They are also on the semester system whereas the universities are almost always on the quarter system, which is must faster. You can take all your introductory courses at a junior college and then transfer them to a university or 4 year college. Just make sure they are transferable. See how you like it and if you excel in it. If you change your mind and want to take a different major, at least you won't have wasted a lot of money as you would at a university.

Some of the best English Lit classes I ever took were at SDA colleges: Pacific Union College and Loma Linda University. But the literature classes I had at California State University were outstanding, especially The Romantic Poets, Shakespeare I and II, Approaches to Literary Criticism, Rhetorical Theory, and The Complete Works of Thomas Pynchon. Three of those were in graduate school at Humbolt State U, a wonderful place to be.

As far as Ellen White in concerned, many people don't realize it, but she herself compiled three volumes of stories for children, titled something like, Stories for Sabbath Reading, which are true-to-life fiction and were chosen for the purpose of teaching good lessons. They're very realistic stories and teach good morals, but they're not true. The main thing is that they could have happened and children learn important lessons from them. (These volumes can be found at the Ellen White Estate or at the Heritage Room at Loma Linda U Library.)

My own experience with fiction taught me that we need to be very careful what we read, because it will have a powerful influence on us, especially if we read it in our early years. I read a great deal of fiction as a kid, and I know that much of it had a negative effect on me. For instance, Andre Gide, Jean Genet, John Rechy, and Henry Miller, excellent writers all but who can ruin an impressionable, "innocent" kid, who takes their works too seriously. I found out the hard way that what Ellen White says about the damage that fiction can do is absolutely true.

I would rather have my children reading history and biography at that age, and then when they reach high school age, they could begin reading some of the classics, such as Moby Dick, Huckleberry Finn, The Red Badge of Courage, and Scarlet Letter, etc. I would also want to read it along with my children and discuss it with them. That's what I did with my 18 year old daughter when I gave her Crime and Punishment to read. I was in awe of that book at age 14, but my daughter didn't understand the Russian characters and the philosophical talk. So now she is reading Adventist Home and enjoying it very much, she told me yesterday.

I noticed you said you are reading Vanity Fair. That was one of my favorite books in college. I love Thackeray. He's a better stylist and artist than Dickens.

I have a huge library of "good" fiction but I haven't read it much for the last 5 years because my interest and focus has been replaced without any conscious planning with an almost all-consuming interest in the Bible. When I do dip into fiction, lately it has been Tolstoy's Anna Karenina, whose name we gave to our youngest daughter-- Anna Karina.

And so

[SarahAnne]

Again, thank you, John317, for your comments. I'm sure the junior college vs. university info will prove helpful. Is it possible to get a degree in English lit from one of our colleges? And is the reading material at all different than in a secular course?

Yes, I did know that the stories in the "Sabbath Readings" book are mostly fictitious. So, of course, I wouldn't say Mrs. White entirely condemned fiction. However, I still have my doubts about the classics, written in her day, which I seem to gravitate towards.

John317, your approach to fiction, and reading in general, strikes me as very balanced. However, again I have to bring out my doubts. I asked about literature reading in high-school on a website which attracts a lot of conservative, home-schooled SDA young people.

The following quote is an example of what they think of Shakespeare.

"Romeo and Juliet is a perfect example. Where are the Biblical principles in it? There are none. Instead it's full of disobedience to parents, suicide, distrust in God's leading and countless other things. "

[SarahAnne]

Have I scared everyone off?

[oldsailor29]

Have I scared everyone off?

Some may be scared, but I have found that SDAs attitudes toward many things are ill founded. I have read all types of literature, and decided that peoples attitudes toward the things I have read are of little importance and totally unworthy of discussion. I think that is the major reason there is little to no response here.

[Woody]

Well ... I don't know if people are scared or not. But, I do know that people here like 'fiction'. Just head on over to the ANTI- Women's Ordination threads ... and you will find plenty of fiction that attracts attention. :)

[John317]

Hi SarahAnne,

No, not at all scared off-- at least not me. I enjoy discussing issues relating to literature and fiction. I apologize for not checking on this thread in several days. I've been busy editing two works in progress, one on the heavenly sanctuary, and the other a translation of the Koran with lots of notes.

[John317]

Quote:

SarahAnne: ...I'm sure the junior college vs. university info will prove helpful. Is it possible to get a degree in English lit from one of our colleges? And is the reading material at all different than in a secular course?

Yes, it is certainly possible to get a degree in English Lit from one of our colleges. I took English Lit. at Pacific Union College until I changed my major. I also took English Lit at two public colleges, and I didn't find there to be all that much difference in terms of the books we were required to read. There was some difference but not a lot. You would read the great English and American classics in both public or SDA colleges.

One difference is that in a large public university, you would have a greater selection of literature classes than at an SDA school. I doubt any of our colleges and universities offer courses in the complete writings of Thomas Pynchon, for instance-- although I could be wrong. I have a great interest in Latin American/Mexican (untranslated) literature, and Chicano studies, but I've never seen such courses taught at SDA colleges. But again, I might be wrong about this point. I haven't checked every SDA school. But I do know these kinds of classes are in most of the major public universities.

Quote:

SarahAnne: Yes, I did know that the stories in the "Sabbath Readings" book are mostly fictitious. So, of course, I wouldn't say Mrs. White entirely condemned fiction. However, I still have my doubts about the classics, written in her day, which I seem to gravitate towards.

What classics do you have in mind? Any particular ones?

Are there books you feel may not be right to read? My idea is that if we don't feel we should be reading something, then we shouldn't read it. We shouldn't do anything that our conscience is telling us not to do.

Quote:

SarahAnne: your approach to fiction, and reading in general, strikes me as very balanced. However, again I have to bring out my doubts. I asked about literature reading in high-school on a website which attracts a lot of conservative, home-schooled SDA young people.

The following quote is an example of what they think of Shakespeare.

"Romeo and Juliet is a perfect example. Where are the Biblical principles in it? There are none. Instead it's full of disobedience to parents, suicide, distrust in God's leading and countless other things. "

Yes, this is true, and I would not want to push the comparison, but the truth is that the Bible also contains all of the things they describe here. Of course the difference is that in the Bible, the context is God's salvific work on behalf of humankind. But there is no reason that a Christian reader cannot look at some of Shakespeare's plays in the same light. In fact, one of Shakespeare's reasons for writing what he did was his desire to show the horrible affects on society of anarchy and a lack of strong, moral social structure. We can't read his mind and he never wrote an explanation of his motives, but that's certainly one of the main themes all through Shakespeare's plays.

All of the world's best literature is fundamentally concerned with morals-- the choices of good and evil that people face. You've probably noticed this in books such as Vanity Fair and Mansfield Park. Great literature, of course, does not approach the discussion of morals in a straightforward fashion. For instance, you can't expect to find comments such as, "The lesson I wish to teach in this story is that...." The "lessons" are much more subtle.

Does this help?

[monica]

She ardently believes Mrs. White's writings, which it must be admitted certainly put a great damper even on what might be considered innocent fiction. I've read the quotes myself and I don't know how I'd get around them except if I rejected the idea that Mrs. White is Divinely inspired.

Is everything EGW wrote divinely inspired??

[nuff sed]

Having been somewhat concerned about the wave of "Adventist Fiction" which seemed to be arising many years ago, I asked one of the book editors of the Review and Herald Publishing Company "What is your criteria for fiction?" "Well, he answered, It must be true to life". The world's greatest fiction writers are meticulous in being sure that their work is "true to life"....so.....does it make any difference anymore? IMO some of the denomination's greatest fiction writers were Josephine Cunnington Edwards, Goldie Down, and Norma Youngberg. Remember the story of "Nyla and the White Crocodile"? It supposedly happened in Bukit Nyala, Sarawak, East Malaysia. When I worked in that mission many years ago I had occasion to visit that area. The people who lived there never heard of Nyla nor the White Crocodile.

I guess it could all be summed up in the stories told by Horace (Tall Tale) Tuttle. As he was waxing eloquently one day his brother said, "Horace, it didn't happen that way". Horace replied, "Well it could have". 'nuff sed

[John317]

Quote:

'nuff sed: Having been somewhat concerned about the wave of "Adventist Fiction" which seemed to be arising many years ago, I asked one of the book editors of the Review and Herald Publishing Company "What is your criteria for fiction?" "Well, he answered, It must be true to life". The world's greatest fiction writers are meticulous in being sure that their work is "true to life"....so.....does it make any difference anymore? IMO some of the denomination's greatest fiction writers were Josephine Cunnington Edwards, Goldie Down, and Norma Youngberg.

Good points.

I love fiction and have read tons of it over the last 40 years, but my taste for spending many hours a day reading and writing it have been replaced by studying the Bible and writing about biblical themes. It's not a change that I made deliberately due to any conviction that it's wrong-- it is just that my interests have changed over the last few years.

Their standards have to be "true to life," because no one is going to be able to write a story where the dialogue and every incident is exactly the way it was in real life. A good story is going to need some additions and subtractions and some things rearranged because a story worth publishing and reading is a work of art.

[SarahAnne]

Again, thankyou for the info. I'll have to look into Thomas Pynchon, who I am not familiar with.

I believe the classics I was speaking of as attracting me were ones written in Mrs. White's day. George Elliot, Dickens, Thackeray, the Brontes, etc. I still see no evidence to contradict a belief that Mrs. White was including these in her philippics against fiction. However, for myself I am comfortable with them. As you so ably put it,

Quote:

All of the world's best literature is fundamentally concerned with morals-- the choices of good and evil that people face. You've probably noticed this in books such as Vanity Fair and Mansfield Park. Great literature, of course, does not approach the discussion of morals in a straightforward fashion. For instance, you can't expect to find comments such as, "The lesson I wish to teach in this story is that...." The "lessons" are much more subtle.

There is, in my opinion, a clear-sighted magnanimity in the Victorian authors which the reader may learn from.

I'm glad you mentioned Mansfield Park, as I have long held that Austen's primary concern was in the morality of behavior. She, of course, was too good a novelist to loudly chastise her rascal-characters, but her subtle irony has much greater power because of this.

[SarahAnne]

Yes, this is true, and I would not want to push the comparison, but the truth is that the Bible also contains all of the things they describe here. Of course the difference is that in the Bible, the context is God's salvific work on behalf of humankind. But there is no reason that a Christian reader cannot look at some of Shakespeare's plays in the same light. In fact, one of Shakespeare's reasons for writing what he did was his desire to show the horrible affects on society of anarchy and a lack of strong, moral social structure. We can't read his mind and he never wrote an explanation of his motives, but that's certainly one of the main themes all through Shakespeare's plays.

Does this help?