Women's Ordination Sidetrack Topic on Trinity, EGW, etc...

[Nic Samojluk]

John,

You said:

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The Lamb wouldn't have been slain from the foundation of the world if the Lamb never would have come to this earth and been slain.

The Lamb is a symbol. It points to god who according to Ellen White has been on the cross since rebellion took place in heaven. It represents God’s infinite suffering as a result of sin and rebellion.

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Ellen White never implies that Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world simply because he was sorry that sin entered the world.

What is more painful for a parent: Experiencing physical pain or feeling the psychological pain resulting from watching all his children—millions of them in God’s case--being subjected to suffering and death? The Bible states that “In all their afflictions, he was afflicted.” What does this tell you? Why do you think Jesus wept over Jerusalem? Was this because he realized he would be killed, or rather because he saw the coming destruction of his people when in AD 70 by the Romans and the eternal loss of millions of human beings he created? Read how Ellen White describes God’s reaction to human suffering!

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He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world because of His voluntary agreement that He would come here and die-- give up his life, shedding his blood-- in order to save all who should come to Him in humble faith.

Yes, he volunteered to die, if needed. Notice the “IF” I used. There is a passage in Ellen White’s writings where she expressed Lucifer’s rebellion on a contingency basis. I wish you would help me locating it. I read it some years ago, but now I can’t find it.

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If Jesus hadn't shed his blood, how would He have been resurrected for us?

There would have been no need for him to resurrect. Moses freed the Israelites and there was no need for him to be killed. The same is true about Joshua, Gideon, Samuel, David and so on. The Jewish leaders were free to accept Jesus as their Savior. They could have chosen not to kill him. In that case, I see no need for Jesus’ resurrection.

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How, then, too, would He have ratified the New Covenant?

In the OT a covenant was ratified by either the sacrifice of animals. We today ratify an agreement by attaching a signature to a document. The book of Hebrews was written with the Hebrews in mind and used a language they could understand.

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How, also, would He have bruised the head of the serpent?

The bruising of the serpents head is a symbol of Satan’s defeat. God could have defeated the Devil in many ways.

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And finally, if Christ hadn't died, with what blood would Christ have cleansed us and cleansed the heavenly sanctuary?

The heavenly sanctuary has never been polluted. There is no pollution in heaven. Now regarding our own cleansing, have you forgotten what Jesus told his disciples before he was crucified?

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“Now you are clean by the word which I have spoken to you.”

How did Jesus clean them? By his word. You seem to be focused on symbols, forgetting that those symbols have meaning. Read John 6: 53 & 63.

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So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

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"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

The Jews were offended when Jesus told them that they needed to drink his blood. Jesus explained that what he meant was that they needed to listen to his words. The cleansing power does not reside in the drops of blood which flowed from his veins, but rather in the words he spoke. Jesus cleansed the mind of his disciples before his death by his words, and if the Jews had refused to kill him, Jesus would have continued cleaning peoples minds with his words.

[John317]

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John 3:17: The Lamb wouldn't have been slain from the foundation of the world if the Lamb never would have come to this earth and been slain.

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Nic Samojluk: The Lamb is a symbol. It points to god who according to Ellen White has been on the cross since rebellion took place in heaven. It represents God’s infinite suffering as a result of sin and rebellion.

Yes, you are right. And what happens to a sacrificial Lamb? Why is it a perfect symbol?

Notice the symbology all through the Bible, particularly in Leviticus, Isaiah 53, the Gospel of John, and the Apocylypse.

Also notice in DA how Ellen White uses the phrase, "slain from the foundation of the world." She means that it was determined from the beginning that Christ would die in order to save lost mankind. This was His covenant with the Father. Read the entire chapter, "The Plan of Redemption," in the book, Patriarchs and Prophets, esp. pp. 63, 64.

Let me know what you think of the following paragraphs from DA:

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Son of man must be cast into the ground and die, and be buried out of sight; but He was to live again. Christ presented His future, illustrating it by the things of nature, that the disciples might understand. The true result of His mission was to be reached by His death. "Verily, verily, I say unto you," He said, "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." When the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it springs up, and bears fruit. So the death of Christ would result in fruit for the kingdom of God. In accordance with the law of the vegetable kingdom, life was to be the result of His death.

....

The grain of wheat that preserves its own life can produce no fruit. It abides alone. Christ could, if He chose, save Himself from death. But should He do this, He must abide alone. He could bring no sons and daughters to God. Only by yielding up His life could He impart life to humanity. Only by falling into the ground to die could He become the seed of that vast harvest,--the great multitude that out of every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, are redeemed to God.

[John317]

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Nic Samojluk: he [Christ] volunteered to die, if needed. Notice the “IF” I used. There is a passage in Ellen White’s writings where she expressed Lucifer’s rebellion on a contingency basis. I wish you would help me locating it. I read it some years ago, but now I can’t find it.

It's DA 22, but she does not say anything about "if" or about a "contengency basis."

You make it sound as if when Christ volunteered to come here as a humaning being, he didn't know that He would have to die. But both the Bible and the SOP are clear that Christ knew he would need to die in order to save mankind.

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The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

Lucifer had said, "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; . . . I will be like the Most High." Isa. 14:13, 14. But Christ, "being in the form of God, counted it not a thing to be grasped to be on an equality with God, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men." Phil. 2:6, 7, R. V., margin.

This was a voluntary sacrifice. Jesus might have remained at the Father's side. He might have retained the glory of heaven, and the homage of the angels. But He chose to give back the scepter into

the Father's hands, and to step down from the throne of the universe, that He might bring light to the benighted, and life to the perishing.

[John317]

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Nic Samojluk: The bruising of the serpents head is a symbol of Satan’s defeat. God could have defeated the Devil in many ways.

Do you believe, then, that God could have defeated Satan and saved the world without Christ's death?

If so, why didn't God do it? That makes it sound like Christ's death wasn't necessary but it was merely convenient, or something that could have been avoided if God had really wanted to.

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John3:17-- And finally, if Christ hadn't died, with what blood would Christ have cleansed us and cleansed the heavenly sanctuary?

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Nic Samojluk: The heavenly sanctuary has never been polluted. There is no pollution in heaven. Now regarding our own cleansing, have you forgotten what Jesus told his disciples before he was crucified?

Are you saying, Nic, that you believe the book of Hebrews is in error, or untrustworthy, when it says that the heavenly sanctuary needs to be purified? See Hebrews 9: 23. You indicated earlier that you believe what the early Adventist pioneers taught. Well, James White and Ellen White both taught that the heavenly sanctuary needs to be cleansed.

How did the heavenly sanctuary get "polluted"? By the record of our sins. In other words, the sins of God's people affect God's reputation. It sounds like you reject the SDA doctrine of the Investigative Judgment. It is well founded on Bible doctrine. I suggest you study a book fairly recently published called The Silencing of Satan, the Gospel of the Investigative Judgment, by Bradley Williams. You will be able to get it at the ABC in Loma Linda. If they don't have it in stock, you can order it. You can also see a discussion of it with the author online if you Google the author and the title. It is one of the best books I know of in terms of showing the Bible evidence for the IJ.

Just out of curiosity, do you also reject what Ellen White wrote in the book, Great Controversy, regarding the Investigative Judgment?

If I believed she was wrong on this doctrine, which is of such importance among her writings and theology, I would have to completely reject her as a prophet of God. Why? Because she taught that God showed her that doctrine to be true, and she wrote GC in her last years. She also said that book was the book she had the greatest interest in seeing that it received wide circulation. If she was wrong on it, I would not trust her at all in anything. It would mean she was a false prophet, having utterly failed the Bible tests of a genuine prophet, and we know the source of inspiration of false prophets. The Bible commanded false prophets to be stoned to death. That is how seriously God takes the lies of a false prophet. She herself said her work either came from God or from Satan. I take her words seriously.

[Nic Samojluk]

Is it possible that what we see and draw meaning from after the fact is evidence that God is the master of taking anything, including the devil's "success" in trying to mess up God's plans for his people, and transforming it to his ultimate purpose? It didn't turn out as He had planned but He still made it work for His ultimate plan of salvation. He had a contingency plan for no matter what the devil does to try to thwart God's purposes.

Tom,

Yes indeed. You are 100 percent right!

[Nic Samojluk]

Nic

I suspect that it is a topic you are subscribed to that has been moved to one of the full membership forums.

Stan,

OK. That would explain the anomaly. The curious detail is that all three of them dealt with women's ordination, which is the topic of this forum. What a coincidence!

[John317]

Quote:

Nic Samojluk:

How did Jesus clean them? By his word. You seem to be focused on symbols, forgetting that those symbols have meaning. Read John 6: 53 & 63.

Of course symbols have meaning, but the heavenly sanctuary and Christ as our High Priest are literal, not merely symbolic.

Christ literally died. He shed His literal blood. He is in a literal sanctuary in heaven. Jesus will literally come for His literal church. We are to literally separate sin from us through the power of the Holy Spirit. Those things have great meaning, but they lose their meaning if they are not also literal.

[Guest]

AMEN!! John.

[John317]

Hey, Happy Sabbath, too. It will be Sabbath here in a couple of hours.

[Gregory Matthews]

John said:

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When she says that God showed her visions and dreams and the Holy Spirit helped her in the writing of those dreams and visions, she was either lying or telling the truth. Unless you want to say she was mad. She couldn't have been an honest person and perfectly sane if she was wrong about those things.

I believe that God and the HS did show EGW visions and dreams. But, your either, mad, lying, or telling the truth is simply wrong. It is just overly simplistic.

Being wrong is an option--one that I have rejected, but it is an option.

She could be wrong without being insane--mad is a common word (in this contest) for insane. She could have been wrong without being psychotic--psychotic is a technical word often associated with insane.

[John317]

John said:

Quote:

When she says that God showed her visions and dreams and the Holy Spirit helped her in the writing of those dreams and visions, she was either lying or telling the truth. Unless you want to say she was mad. She couldn't have been an honest person and perfectly sane if she was wrong about those things.

I believe that God and the HS did show EGW visions and dreams. But, your either, mad, lying, or telling the truth is simply wrong. It is just overly simplistic.

Being wrong is an option--one that I have rejected, but it is an option.

She could be wrong without being insane--mad is a common word (in this contest) for insane. She could have been wrong without being psychotic--psychotic is a technical word often associated with insane.

Explain how she could have had all those dreams and visions and write all those letters and books and simply be wrong. Could she have been under some kind of illusion? What could have happened?

Some people say Christ was a good man but not the Son of God or the Messiah.

Do you think it's possible that Jesus was simply wrong? I believe he was either who He claimed to be or else a liar or crazy. (Unless you want to conjecture that he never even said what it attributed to him.)

[doug yowell]

In the recent Review, a senior Pastor, Hyveth Williams, has a very interesting column about WO. Also reading the comments about the issue and Paulson remarks shows that it is a cultural issue. It was stated that women were already doing everything an 'ordained' pastors were involved in but that some countries were afraid to ordain them. And yes, whether a small minority continues to oppose the designation of 'ordained', the fact is, women are operating in the same capacity as male counterparts.

In reality, 'ordination' is a mute point. God has and is continuing to use women in the same way as men. It is presumption on humans to insist that God is doing any different. I personally do not care if 'men' refuse to ordain women. God is in charge and I will not attempt to speak for him in any 'pope' type of manner. When it is apparent, that God is in control and leading any who are willing to spread the good news and be leaders of the church, as pastors of flocks, why do we attempt to disparage Gods leading?

We need more Hyveth Williams and it is truly good to hear her say that God is leading women into the ministry!

Would you consider Hyveth Williams to be an impartial observer? Would you consider the Review to be an impartial witness. Did the Review include a counterpoint article? Pointing to the results of a previous compromise as proof that something is being practiced and therefore is of God sorta begs the question, doesn't it? When Israel demanded a king,God let them have it and worked with it. One can hardly attribute that as God's leading.

[John317]

Here is Hyveth Williams' "Testimony":

Excerpt from a video-taped interview

Source: http://faithfortoday.tv/article.php?id=101

I lived in Hartford, Connecticut for many years and became involved with the local politics there with the Mayor and so forth. I was his campaign manager and then also his executive assistant and that gave me opportunity to mingle with the local politicians, some national and some international people.

It was a two way kind of life because I lived this very public persona that was a very successful woman and inside of me I was a very angry, hurt, bitter, person. And the way that people realized that it was showing - or the way that I thought that I expressed it - was through the choices that I made: alcohol, drugs, promiscuous behavior. Swearing a lot. Those were some of the ways that my pain was showing itself.

I finally, eventually, saw a psychiatrist who counseled me and helped me through very painful parts of my life and told me that I was mostly...his vision...his image of me was that I was round peg trying to fit in a square hole or one of those old clich�s, idioms, whatever.

On one hand I was very famous: I couldn't walk through the city without being photographed; I was always on the news in doing television talk shows and so forth; very popular with the media people. And on the other hand, I lived a life that every time I went to me...went home, I would think: Tonight is the night I'm going to kill myself." In fact, I attempted to commit suicide on three occasions that I can recall right now. So I had that very difficult kind of a life.

What Changed?

I decided early on in my life in this local political scenario that I could do a better job than the local politicians and I wanted to run for office. And I began to prepare myself. In fact, I did hire my own campaign manager and we were planning and plotting and getting people together and beginning to raise funds to take on my boss. And I did quit my job so that I could do this effectively.

During the course of this political campaign, which was in its very formative stages, I did have the endorsement of a local TV station and a newspaper, but outside of that, it was in its formative stages. During that period, I began to hear voices and I began...and I thought that I was having a mental breakdown. Actually, that was my first thought: that I was falling apart. And the more I heard these voices, the more I drank.

You need to understand that because of the life that I lived, I smoked quite a lot of cigarettes. I was smoking 3 packs of cigarettes a day and drinking coffee all the time. And I was for all intents and purposes, anorexic. I was weighing 78 pounds, literally. I wore a size three that was too big for me during that time and I...because of that kind of abusive way of living, I ended up in the hospital. I had a stroke that was medically-induced during this period. It was just a horrendous time of great things and very bad things.

So here I was running for this office and having these stresses relating to my relationship with my boss. Because I lied a lot at the time. You need to understand that I did not just say: "I want to be a politician". You know, it is true that we politicians lie a lot. And I thought that my way of segueing out of the job was to lie my way out of it rather than to just simply look him in the eye and say: "I'm through with this job and I'm going to run against you."

So all of these stresses from trying to hold the stories together and keep things together - plus the fact that I was entering into uncharted waters created in my perhaps what I thought. And that's how I related the voices that I heard in the beginning. I thought this is all related to those factors. Plus I was drinking quite a lot. And because of my weight, the size that I was (as I mentioned, I was 78 pounds), a friend of mine who was a lawyer suggested that I use marijuana to gain weight. And so I had started using marijuana in addition to the fact that I was eating everything in sight, including the kitchen sink. I was also becoming more and more paranoid. So I thought all of those things induced the voices I was hearing. So I paid no attention to them. I had a friend of mine who had heard voices. And she was a very popular media personality and heard voices and ended up in a mental institution. And I felt that that was where I was heading. And I should go there. Except, it turned out in my case that these voices really was God calling me. And that was the amazing turn around in my story.

Hyveth's Turnaround

There was nothing...at first I did not understand the "God" thing, because I was an atheist. I did not at all believe in God. And if someone had suggested to me at that time that this was God, I would not have a frame of reference for this God-being.

I felt that people who believed in God were weak and could not make decisions on their own. And needed to lean on an invisible being to do that. So, I did not assume that it was God, initially. I knew that some thing was invading my life and disrupting my life in a very particular way. I think I discovered it was God through two experiences which may show you how I came about.

Her First Epiphany

I was ...I had ...I might say, successfully disengaged myself from my boss from the Mayor, he just passed away earlier this year so...I want to mention that somehow. But I had, in some way, disengaged myself from him. And one of the things that I had done...there was a lot of investigations happening and I had stolen some files that I knew would indict some people in the city. And I had stolen these files and hidden them in my home. And when the time came that it was discovered that I was the one who had taken them, I was...I went to his office to confront him. And I remember just this "being" over him. And he was sitting on the other side of the desk and I was just screaming, foul language, words that not even sailors would use, in fact, I swore so much, if I ran out of swear words, I made them up. I would connect two swear words and I would be creative with...you know, I was ...invectives like you cannot believe.

And he needed to have someone negotiate us through these muddy waters and he invited the personnel director for the city to come and talk with us. When he came, I continued the caustic manner in which I was addressing him. And I remember the personnel director saying: "Hyveth, you know, a soft answer turneth away wrath". And I had never heard those words before. And I remember turning my head and almost like my neck would snap. You know, it was such an instant reaction to those words. Because they pierced through something. They passed my brains, beyond my heart, into my very soul and I needed to know: "Where did you get those words?" I stopped and said: "Where did you get those words?" And he said: "Out of the Bible." And I said: "I want to see it." And before I left that day, he gave me a red King James Version of the Bible. And I went home and I read that Bible from Genesis to Revelation. I did not sleep. I stayed up and read the whole thing. It took me maybe about seven days, but I did. So that was one event that changed...that had an impact, that began to make me realize that there is something or someone, a "being", God.

Her Second Transformational Experience

And after that, I had another experience that came about as a result of all of these things that I did in the context of trying to get myself elected in the city because they had never had a black. They had never had a female. And I wanted to be the first black female Mayor in the United States. And that was my goal, that was my dream. And so I would stop at nothing. There was nothing that I would not do to have that.

Of course, I did not have any underlying principles. I didn't care. This is what I wanted. And I didn't care how I got it. And so the second incident was that having been discovered that I had been doing all these things, I was persona non grata of course, in many circles, where I was once welcome. Also, there were some people who were very threatened by what I had done, because I had information that could jeopardize their safety and security and they did go after me. And when I discovered that I was...my actions had been discovered, I began to run away, literally run away. And in the process of running away, I ended up in a safe house.

And I won't go into too much description of this place, but when I got there, it was just a funny way of my getting there. I had taken...I had flown in...my son was a young boy at the time...I had taken him out by night, put him on an airplane...couldn't get him on without someone, so I flew with him to New York. Put him on an airplane to outside of the United States...and then took a bus back to my home because I couldn't get another flight. And when I got home, it was like two in the morning- and someone was in my home. And this person later just totally destroyed my house.

But that's another story.

I ran from there seeing this person in the house and realizing that my life was in danger, I ran from there into a...I called a cab...and I called the cab and the cab was taking me to this place where I knew I could be. Then I had him call another cab and I was crawling from cab to cab on the floor so that I could ...if someone was following me, this was just like a weird movie happening in my life. But anyway, I got to this safe house early in the morning, maybe by then five in the morning, I have no idea. But it was in the morning. I remember hearing the birds ...the sounds of the birds.....that early morning sound as I was dozing off in the sofa. And I fell off into a very, very deep sleep. And as I slept I realized that I would not come back.

You know there are many Christians and many people who say that people don't have this experience where you know you are dying and you see light and everything like that. I think they do because I did. I really believe that people do. I think some people exaggerate and some people make more of it so they can get on Oprah Winfrey or something. But I do think there is a moment in some people's experience where they have this experience...something. And I had that. I felt that...at that moment, I saw myself dying and I knew...I felt that I had stepped outside of my body and I was standing outside of my body looking at myself laying there. And I knew I was not going to be reconnected with that body. I knew this was it. I didn't see my life pass before me. I didn't see God and angels or anything like that.

The weirdest thing and the only thing that I recall is that I saw all the ice cream that I had never eaten. And I kept screaming: "I haven't had," you know, "Mississippi Mud!" or something like that. That's what I saw pass before me because I am that kind of a crazy person perhaps.

But anyway, as I watched this happening and I realized that I was never going to be reconnected, I heard a voice say to me, come with me and I will give you peace and joy forevermore. And I knew then it was God. I don't know why I knew this voice was God. And I can never explain it to anyone. But it was in that moment that I knew I heard God. And I had been hearing him many times before but we didn't' connect. This time we connected. And I said, I want to live, I want to live. And this voice said if you will follow me and do exactly as I tell you to do, I will give you life. I didn't understand then that it was eternal life. I wanted to live physically, naturally. And before I ...the voice said to me: "You will know that I spoke to you because three things are going to happen in your life. And the first one..." (this voice...and it was a male sounding voice and I don't know what intonation it had because I wasn't taking notes about that. I wanted to live and that's all I cared about. I was a very selfish narcissistic person so I didn't care about anything else. I think that...and before I woke up and regained consciousness this voice said to me): "You will know that I spoke to you because three things will happen: Number one someone is going to come to you and they will say to you: "I have come to take you home." And when they do, you must go with them. And the second time, for the rest of your life, as long as you live on this earth, no matter what the weather, no matter where you are, you will always see flowers." I will always...you will always be reminded and I can tell you some incredible stories of being in strange places, snow covered places, and found a rose that someone dropped and I would remember. I have been in the desert and found a flower, just one little flower peaking up. And I remembered that yes, I had this encounter.

And the third one was something that I needed to do with this encounter, that was not for public consumption and I have never shared...I have tried on one occasion to share it and just got befuddled. And I have just not bothered to share it. But there were these three things. Well, I got up and being sanguine and if you know anything about sanguine people we've very dramatic and you know...the life of the party and everything like that, I got up. I had my life. And I decided to go out and buy a long green gown and wear it to the corner, one of the street corners, busiest street corners and just begin to tell people that Jesus lives and that God is love and I've never read a Bible and didn't know what I was talking about. But you know, I felt I had to pay back since I was alive. And particularly since I'd been an atheist.

Anyway, some of my friends came and grabbed me, threw me in a car, smacked me a couple of times, poured some alcohol down me - and I came to my senses. And I quit smoking for about two weeks. Here I was smoking three packs of cigarettes. I quit smoking for about two weeks. And I refused to smoke. I was going to be a Christian. And I thought I had heard the King James version and I began to speak in King James. I thou who art thou...that sort of thing. I didn't know how to pray, so I used to hang my head out the window and say: "Hey, JC, this is Hyveth Williams, here is my social security number..." You know, it was just crazy stuff. I did this for maybe a month and then one day, I said: "Wait a minute! I don't even believe in God! What's the matter with me? I must be totally crazy! And so I went back to my lifestyle: smoking again, drinking, and I had a business at the time in public relations and I remember calling my secretary and we went out and bought a case of champagne and we put the champagne in the freezer in the basement and some in the freezer in the kitchen. And we started drinking in the afternoon.

And by maybe 2:00 and by 5:00 we were zonked. And we were sitting just making stupid plans and talking silly things and everything like that and the champagne that was in the upstairs, in the freezer...if you freeze champagne, the bottles burst and it sounds like bullets. And we were there all zonked and suddenly: "Bang! Bang! Bang! We were diving under chairs and screaming and thinking...you know. I'm saying: "Oh God, I'll be a Christian if that's..." It is crazy. I shouldn't really tell this story.

So anyway, in the middle of this chaos, with the champagne bottles going off, the door bell rings and this man that I knew, he and his wife, I had not seen them for about ten years or more, they were standing there. I opened the door and I'm, you must understand that I'm really out of it, cigarette hanging out, just totally.

And he said: "I have come to take you home."

And I remember just sobering up instantly and falling apart then.

Just not knowing what to do. And so I went. And in his home, one night, maybe the second night that I was there, I had this incredible encounter with God and I knew then that it was God.

And I fought with him and wrestled with Him. And I said: " You will not have my life. I don't want to be a Jesus-freak. I do not want to be a zombie. I do not want to be what I had seen so many Christians being. I do not want to be a phony. I don't want to be fake and unreal. I want to be happy and live life and have joy and still be a Christian. And I will not go with you."

And ...we wrestled all night and I remember in the morning, I was so exhausted, and I said: "You know what? I can't fight with you anymore because I'm not going to win. I will go with you. But if you ever, ever, ever let me down, if you ever lie to me, if you ever turn me into something that I'm not, I will spend the rest of my life telling people that you are not to be believed."

That was how I became a Christian

[SivartM]

""Testimony""?

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, I wondered the same thing. Why the quotation marks?

[Nic Samojluk]

John,

You said:

1.

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Let's cut to the chase, Nic. Ellen White said clearly that Christ had to die in order for anyone to be saved. She taught this in so many places, it's impossible to miss it unless one deliberately chooses to ignore it. For instance, she wrote, "Only by His death could the world be saved.... Only by yielding up His life could He impart life to humanity" (DA 622, 623). Notice these statements are made in the context of what occurred at the time of the Fall. Christ knew before He came here that He would have to die.

Time of the Fall? Where did you get the idea that this was made in reference to the fall? The context shows that these comments were made in reference to the visit of the Greeks who wanted to see Jesus! Here is the quotation in its proper context:

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The hour of Christ's glorification had come. He was standing in the shadow of the cross, and the inquiry of the Greeks showed Him that the sacrifice He was about to make would bring many sons and daughters to God. He knew that the Greeks would soon see Him in a position they did not then dream of. They would see Him placed beside Barabbas, a robber and murderer, who would be chosen for release before the Son of God. They would hear the people, inspired by the priests and rulers, making their choice. And to the question, "What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ?" the answer would be given, "Let Him be crucified." Matt. 27:22. By making this propitiation for the sins of men, Christ knew that His kingdom would be perfected, and would extend throughout the world. He would work as the Restorer, and His Spirit would prevail. For a moment He looked into futurity, and heard the voices proclaiming in all parts of the earth, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. In these strangers He saw the pledge of a great harvest, when the partition wall between Jew and Gentile should be broken down, and all nations, tongues, and peoples should hear the message of salvation. The anticipation of this, the consummation of His hopes, is expressed in the words, "The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified." But the way in which this glorification must take place was never absent from Christ's mind. The gathering in of the Gentiles was to follow His approaching death. Only by His death could the world be saved. Like a grain of wheat, the Son of man must be cast into the ground and die, and be buried out of sight; but He was to live again. {DA 622,623}

I did a search and found only three references containing the phrase “Only by his death” and all of them are connected with the life of Jesus, shortly before his death. By that time the Jewish leaders had already determined that they were going to take the life of Jesus. God’s original plan for God’s chosen nation had been thwarted and the only alternative remaining was Plan B, which included the death of Jesus.

2.

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"Since the divine law is a sacred as God Himself, only one equal with God could make atonement for its transgression. None but Christ could redeem fallen man from the curse of the law and bring him again into harmony with Heaven. Christ would take upon Himself the guilt and shame of sin-- sin so offensive to a holy God that it must separate the Father from His Son. Christ would reach to the depths of misery to rescue the ruined race. ...

This long quotation from Patriarchs and Prophets which I have shortened to the first paragraoph of it because of space concerns is the most powerful evidence you have submitted so far. Notice though that you had to resort to what Ellen White described as the “lesser light” in order to try to “cut the chase.” Does this mean that Ellen White is the infallible interpreter of the Bible? Should we not test every doctrine with the Bible and the Bible only?

A. The Legal or Forensic View of the Atonement

It is evident that Ellen White in this chapter of her book believed that the death of Jesus was indispensable for the salvation of sinners. In this passage she definitely sides with the Legal or Forensic View of the Atonement. The law of god is as sacred as God himself. Only one equal to God could pay the penalty for sin. If you accept the legal model—and she seemed to do this in this book—then there is no other alternative. Her writings include many quotations in defense of the legal, or forensic view of the cross.

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Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon.--Manuscript 50, 1900. {7ABC 470.3}

The difficulty is that the legal model has many problems. It pictures God as exacting and unforgiving by demanding that the debt must be paid. This runs counter to many places where God is depicted as merciful and forgiving. In the story of the prodigal son, the father receives his son without any legal conditions. He does not say: “Bring your innocent little brother and lets kill him to expiate your transgression.” Such a requirement would have made no legal sense. We don’t restore the legal imbalance by requiring the death of the innocent. We rather compound the injustice.

My dictionary defines forgiveness as “forfeiting the right to demand the payment of a debt.” If God could not forgive without the payment of the debt, this means that forgiveness was an illusion. True forgiveness does not involve the payment of what is owed.

Fortunately, Ellen White did not limit herself to only one legal theory of atonement. Somebody asserted that she, in her voluminous writings and borrowings, included all the theories of atonement ever advanced by theologians.

B, The Substitutionary Theory of Atonement

Here is an example of the Substitutionary Theory of Atonement.

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Justice demanded the sufferings of a man. Christ, equal with God, gave the sufferings of a God. He needed no atonement. His suffering was not for any sin He had committed; it was for man --all for man; and His free pardon is accessible to all.--The Review and Herald, Sept. 21, 1886. {7ABC 473.1}

The problem is that substitution is admissible in civil cases, but not in criminal ones. If I get a speeding ticket, anybody can pay the debt for me. Nevertheless, if I am guilty of murder, there is no substitution possible. I am the only one who can pay the debt. No judge will allow a substitute.

C. The Ransom Theory of Atonement

Next I want to cite several passages where the Ransom Theory of Atonement is defended by Mrs. White:

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The ransom paid by Christ--the atonement on the cross--is ever before them.--Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 190. {7ABC 468.4}

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On the cross of Calvary He paid the redemption price of the race. And thus He gained the right to rescue the captives from the grasp of the great deceiver, who by a lie framed against the government of God, caused the fall of man, and who thus forfeited all claim to be called a loyal subject of God's kingdom. {7ABC 468.5}

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Satan refused to let his captives go. He held them as his subjects because of their belief of his lie. He had thus become their jailor. But he had no right to demand that a price be paid for them; because he had not obtained possession of them by lawful conquest, but under false pretense. {7ABC 468.6}

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God, being the creditor, had a right to make any provision for the redemption of human beings. Justice demanded that a certain price be paid. The Son of God was the only One who could pay this price. He volunteered to come to this earth and pass over the ground where Adam fell. He came as the redeemer of the lost race, to conquer the wily foe, and by His steadfast allegiance to right, to save all who should accept Him as their Saviour.--Letter 20, 1903. {7ABC 468, 469}

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Christ alone could bear the message of man's deliverance. He came with a full and complete ransom. He came to bring life and immortality within the reach of the fallen race. As the Life-giver, He assumed our nature, that He might reveal the character of God, and stamp His image on all who would receive Him.--Manuscript 69, 1897. {7ABC 469.1}

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All that God and Christ could do has been done to save sinners. Transgression placed the whole world in jeopardy, under the death sentence. But in heaven there was heard a voice saying, I have found a ransom. Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, was made sin for fallen man. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Christ gave Himself as a ransom. He laid off His royal robe. He laid aside His kingly crown, and stepped down from His high command over all heaven, clothing His divinity with humanity that He might carry all the infirmities and bear all the temptations of humanity.--Letter 22, 1900. {7ABC 469.2}

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God bowed His head satisfied. Now justice and mercy could blend. Now He could be just, and yet the Justifier of all who should believe on Christ. He [God] looked upon the victim expiring on the cross, and said, "It is finished. The human race shall have another trial." The redemption price was paid, and Satan fell like lightning from heaven.--Youth's Instructor, June 21, 1900. {7ABC 470.4}

D. The Reconciliation Theory of Atonement

Ellen White also included in her writings a defense of the Reconciliation Theory of Atonement:

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The whole world needs to be instructed in the oracles of God, to understand the object of the atonement, the at-one-ment, with God. The object of this atonement was that the divine law and government might be maintained.--Manuscript 163, 1897.

E. The Moral Influence Theory of Atonement

Finally we have her description of the Moral Influence Theory of Atonement:

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Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator. All heaven suffered in Christ's agony; but that suffering did not begin or end with His manifestation in humanity. The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. When there came upon Israel the calamities that were the sure result of separation from God,--subjugation by their enemies, cruelty, and death, --it is said that "His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel." "In all their affliction He was afflicted: . . . and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old." Judges 10:16; Isaiah 63:9. {Ed 263.1}

From this explanation for the cross I conclude that if suffering was a requirement for our salvation, then by the time Jesus was born in Bethlehem God had suffered more than enough. But I see this suffering not from the legal view of the cross. I see God’s pain and suffering as the result of his love. Since his love is infinite, then his suffering when rebellion broke out in heaven was also infinite.

This means that if someone is enamored with the legal model, then by the time Jesus was born in Bethlehem, God had repaid the debt for sin a thousand times, because he had felt the pain of seeing those he created suffering and dying by the millions. Viewed from this perspective, the cross became not a payment for sin, but rather an overpayment.

When a child rebels against his parents, there is no law requiring that the parents must suffer to pay a debt. They suffer in direct proportion to the love they have for him/her. Suffering is the natural result of love. This is true about human love and it is also true about the love of God.

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The atonement of Christ is not a mere skillful way to have our sins pardoned; it is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. It is the heaven-ordained means by which the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us, but in our hearts and characters.--Letter 406, 1906. {7ABC 464.2}

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In the councils of heaven the cross was ordained as the means of atonement. This was to be God's means of winning men to Him. Christ came to this earth to show that in humanity He could keep the holy law of God.--Manuscript 165, 1899. {7ABC 464.5}

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"And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die."--Manuscript 33, 1897. {7ABC 467.1}

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The only-begotten Son of God took upon Him the nature of man, and established His cross between earth and heaven. Through the cross, man was drawn to God, and God to man.--The Signs of the Times, June 5, 1893.

F. Conclusion

What do we do with all these theories of the atonement. The fact that Ellen White included in her writings so many explanations for the death of Jesus Christ doesn’t surprise me. We do know now that she borrowed extensively from other writers, in spite of her many denials of having done so. My feeling is that she did not want to omit any explanation which might help someone accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. This is fine, but what do we do with all these theories.

Do we accept them all, or do we pick one as the best of them? I have no problem if we use them all provided we emphasize the one which makes the most logical sense. This is why I have chosen the Moral Influence Theory of Atonement as the one which is closest to the truth of what took place. It fits best my way of thinking. I believe that no theory fully explains what happened, for which reason we will be studying the story of redemption throughout all eternity.

[Woody]

It's amazing how we must endure so many topics other than THE topic just because some might be interested in 'other' topics. I wonder if we need to have thread topics anymore.

At one time in the history of this forum .... derailing THE topic was not allowed. Perhaps now ... things are different. Hey - what do "I" know. I'm not aware of what the latest in this regards is. So ... have at it.

[Woody]

Yes, I wondered the same thing. Why the quotation marks?

Wow. How would one feel if we put quotation marks around their testimony. I've heard some repeated testimonies here several times ... but I never put quotation marks around them even though I might have felt so inclined.

I am just surprised at the behavior that is exhibited in the threads that are "titled" Women's Ordination. It seems to bring out the worst in some.

I have to believe that it is the signs of the times we live in. Satan is going to do what he can to stop God's plan and His will for His Church.

But praise God ... we know who wins this battle/contest.

[Woody]

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She could be wrong without being insane--mad is a common word (in this contest) for insane.

Yes Gregory ... for some it does appear to be a 'contest'. lol

[doug yowell]

Very interesting ,John. Has HW modified that testimony recently? Did you leave out anything from the interview (that's a lotta post)that would indicate any subsequent stabilizing experiences? I attended Campus Hill when she first became pastor there. Big hoopla. My oldest daughter had some very interesting things to say about her sermons.Wasn't she the first SDA woman head pastor? Thanks for the interview, probably something most of us had never heard.Maybe her analysis is not the best to use in support of WO?

[doug yowell]

It's amazing how we must endure so many topics other than THE topic just because some might be interested in 'other' topics. I wonder if we need to have thread topics anymore.

At one time in the history of this forum .... derailing THE topic was not allowed. Perhaps now ... things are different. Hey - what do "I" know. I'm not aware of what the latest in this regards is. So ... have at it.

Bee patient, Woody. Eventually the discussion will come full circle and.......ta da, we're back!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

It's amazing how we must endure so many topics other than THE topic just because some might be interested in 'other' topics. I wonder if we need to have thread topics anymore.

At one time in the history of this forum .... derailing THE topic was not allowed. Perhaps now ... things are different. Hey - what do "I" know. I'm not aware of what the latest in this regards is. So ... have at it.

Bee patient, Woody. Eventually the discussion will come full circle and.......ta da, we're back!

Yes Sometimes that is allowed to happen and sometimes it ain't allowed and don't.

[doug yowell]

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She could be wrong without being insane--mad is a common word (in this contest) for insane.

Yes Gregory ... for some it does appear to be a 'contest'. lol

If your mechanic was wrong on a lot of his diagnositic endeavors would you keep taking your vehicle back to him?? Is your BMW more important than your Bible?

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: Let's cut to the chase, Nic. Ellen White said clearly that Christ had to die in order for anyone to be saved. She taught this in so many places, it's impossible to miss it unless one deliberately chooses to ignore it. For instance, she wrote, "Only by His death could the world be saved.... Only by yielding up His life could He impart life to humanity" (DA 622, 623). Notice these statements are made in the context of what occurred at the time of the Fall. Christ knew before He came here that He would have to die.

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Nic Samojluk: Time of the Fall? Where did you get the idea that this was made in reference to the fall? The context shows that these comments were made in reference to the visit of the Greeks who wanted to see Jesus!

Here are some of the paragraphs that I'm referring to when I say these statements are in the context of what occurred at the time of the Fall:

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The plan by which alone man's salvation could be secured, involved all heaven in its infinite sacrifice. The angels could not rejoice as Christ opened before them the plan of redemption, for they saw that man's salvation must cost their loved Commander unutterable woe. In grief and wonder they listened to His words as He told them how He must descend from heaven's purity and peace, its joy and glory and immortal life, and come in contact with the degradation of earth, to endure its sorrow, shame, and death. He was to stand between the sinner and the penalty of sin; yet few would receive Him as the Son of God. He would leave His high position as the Majesty of heaven, appear upon earth and humble Himself as a man, and by His own experience become acquainted with the sorrows and temptations which man would have to endure. All this would be necessary in order that He might be able to succor them that should be tempted. Hebrews 2:18. When His mission as a teacher should be ended, He must be delivered into the hands of wicked men and be subjected to every insult and torture that Satan could inspire them to inflict. He must die the cruelest of deaths, lifted up between the heavens and the earth as a guilty sinner. He must pass long hours of agony so terrible that angels could not look upon it, but would veil their faces from the sight. He must endure anguish of soul, the hiding of His Father's face, while the guilt of transgression --the weight of the sins of the whole world--should be upon Him.

The angels prostrated themselves at the feet of their Commander and offered to become a sacrifice for man. But an angel's life could not pay the debt; only He who created man had power to redeem him. Yet the angels were to have a part to act in the plan of redemption. Christ was to be made "a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death." Hebrews 2:9. As He should take human nature upon Him, His strength would not be equal to theirs, and they were to minister to Him, to strengthen and soothe Him under His sufferings. They were also to be ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who should be heirs of salvation. Hebrews 1:14. They would guard the subjects of grace from the power of evil angels and from the darkness constantly thrown around them by Satan.

When the angels should witness the agony and humiliation of their Lord, they would be filled with grief and indignation and would wish to deliver Him from His murderers; but they were not to interpose in order to prevent anything which they should behold. It was a part of the plan of redemption that Christ should suffer the scorn and abuse of wicked men, and He consented to all this when He became the Redeemer of man.

Christ assured the angels that by His death He would ransom many, and would destroy him who had the power of death. He would recover the kingdom which man had lost by transgression, and the redeemed were to inherit it with Him, and dwell therein forever. Sin and sinners would be blotted out, nevermore to disturb the peace of heaven or earth. He bade the angelic host to be in accord with the plan that His Father had accepted, and rejoice that, through His death, fallen man could be reconciled to God.

Notice particularly the parts that are in red. They prove without question that Ellen White believed and taught that Jesus Christ had to die in order for sinners to be saved. Ellen White is in complete harmony with the Bible's teachings on this topic.

Christ died because there was no other way to save us.

[Woody]

"Humanity died: divinity did not die." Ellen White in 5 BC 1113