Women's Ordination Sidetrack Topic on Trinity, EGW, etc...

[John317]

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Nic Samojluk (quoting):

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“I was enrolled in a PhD program at the University of Southern California. One day on the second floor of the library I happened to pick up Alfred Edersheim’s on “The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah.” Almost immediately I was struck by the parallels between Edersheim and the “Desire of Ages.” [Walter Rea, as related by T. Joe Willey who recently spent two days interviewing Walter Rea, the author of “the White Lie”.]

You're talking here about something that is not news at all. In the early 1980s, I attended Walter Rea's first meeting where he talked about his book and his "findings" at the San Bernardino County Museum. Maybe you were there.

Does the fact that she used the writings of others surprise you or cause you to doubt that we can trust what she wrote?

I don't think it will if you understand all the facts of the case. I don't have any problem whatsoever with her having used other people's writings. For one thing, she didn't just copy their material. She altered it so that they expressed what God had shown her. In fact, she did much the same as William Shakespeare and other well-known, highly regarded writers have done.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: If she denied it, I would throw every book of her that I own into the trash. It would mean she is a liar.

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Nic Samojluk: This is your reaction. For consistency sake, would you also throw away the writings of Saint Peter, he denied his Lord; Mrs. White didn’t something so terribly wrong. How about throwing away the writings of King David and Moses. Both of them were guilty of murder. Isn’t murder a more serious crime than lying?

You're comparing apples and oranges.

Peter denied Christ before he was even truly converted and before he wrote his letters. He was not lying while he wrote his letters.

King David and Moses weren't murdering people at the time they were writing. They had both genuinely repented of their sin. Moses lost his temper and was impatient with the people, and under that condition, he failed to give God the glory, but he didn't deliberately mislead the people.

So again, if Ellen White said, "I never use other people's writings-- never 'borrow'-- when I write," she would have been lying and have proven herself to be a false prophet. How could I or anyone trust someone who is lying at the very time they claim to be writing God's messenges?

If she had lied, it would certainly prove she was not under the influence of God.

But as I've shown in a previous post recently, she never denied that she used the writings of others. In fact, she admitted it.

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Nic Samojluk: Here is the reaction of Dr. Provonsha:

"Theoretically, the literary borrowing could amount to 100 % and not be damaging, contends White defender Jack W. Provonsha, professor of religion and Christian Ethics at the Adventists; Loma Linda university near Riverside. [L.A. Times, December 24, 1980.]"

Dr. Provonsha is theoretically correct. I wouldn't be surprised if a great deal of the book of Proverbs is borrowed from other writers, such as the Egyptians. But that doesn't mean they don't belong in the Bible. Paul quoted from various pagan poets. Were the pagan poets inspired? No. But since those poems told the truth, and Paul was writing truth, some of the writings of the pagan poets were included.

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Nic Samojluk: Did Mrs. White ever claim to be either infallible or a saint?

Of course she was not infallible. None of the prophets or apostles were infallible. Did John or Luke or Moses claim to be infallible?

In a biblical sense, yes, Ellen White was a saint, just all who have given their lives to Christ are "saints." See 1 Cor. 1: 2. All who are sanctified are called saints, or holy people, set apart for service to God, called to be God's own possession.

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Nic Samojluk: Notice what she stated:

"I do not claim infallibility, or even perfection of Christian character. I am not free from mistakes and errors in my life. Had I followed my Saviour more closely, I should not have to mourn so much my unlikeness to His dear image. {2BIO 444.6}"

Paul said the same kinds of things. So did David, Isaiah and Daniel. She's telling the truth about her condition as a fallen human being.

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Nic Samojluk: Why would you throw the books of someone who was humble enough to admit that she was human and prone to error? It seems that you are overreacting!

I'm saying that if she lied about using other writers, she would prove to me that she was not trustworthy.

I believe in testing prophets by the Bible, and one of those tests is that their life show they are under the influence of God and not of the devil. If you would believe someone claiming to be a prophet while they are deliberately lying, you are welcome to do so, but I wouldn't.

Ellen White certainly was a sinner and made mistakes and errors, but if she was a genuine prophet of God we won't find that she was lying about her prophetic ministry.

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Nic Samojluk: Would you agree?

I don't think I'm overreacting at all. I hope you're not saying it doesn't bother you that a prophet of God would lie about her prophetic ministry and mislead the people of God. If she would do that, what else might she mislead us in? Could we trust her not to change the truth just a little bit, enough so that it is no longer truth but error?

A dishonest person is capable of lying about anything, not only about small things.

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Nic Samojluk: Most of her writings is like gold to me.

But evidently not Patriarchs and Prophets (63-70), Desire of Ages (22), The Great Controversy (409-450; 498-504), or her writings about the Godhead and the nature of the Holy Spirit, as in "the Three Holiest Beings of heaven," or "the Three Worthies of heaven."

Which writings are like gold to you?

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Nic Samojluk:I would not throw gold away, even if it were borrowed or stolen. I would try to locate its owner and arrange for proper restitution.

What about the statement that God foreknew the apostasy of Lucifer? Is that gold?

Would you try to arrange for proper restitution for statements in Evangelism, pp. 615-617?

I'm not sure who you would try to find.

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Nic Samojluk (quoting Ellen White): We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed.--The Review and Herald, July 26, 1892. {1SM 37.3}

Notice what she's talking about here: "cherished views," "opinions," "our own ideas," "our opinions," etc.

Those are different from the "pillars of our faith," "the old landmarks of truth," and "the waymarks," of which she says "not a block or a pin should be moved." See CW 52-54.

That's an important quote, but don't forget to put with it her other statements on the same subject as found in her other writings such as GC and Counsels to Writers and Editors.

Nic, if you want to continue the exchanges on this subject, we'd better do it on another thread. If you want to do that, I'll be glad to talk these things over with you there.

[Overaged]

John,

You made the following numbered statements:

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You are directly contradicting the words of Jesus as recorded in Luke 24: 25-26, where our Lord says that it was "necessary" for the Messiah to "suffer these things." Others passages of Scripture teach that it "had to" happen.

No, I am not contradicting. I am interpreting them on the basis of everything that the Bible teaches. The story of Jonah teaches me that God’s predictions are contingent on human response. It also teaches me that God loves justice. There is no justice in the notion that God needed to see his own son killed before he was willing to offer forgiveness to sinners.

Well, not all "predictions" made by God are "conditional." First, your wording here is not quite balanced. It should read, 'Some of God's promises, and prophecies are conditional.' Some of them apply no matter what our response. It's all about context. I liked what you said re God loves justice, it's too bad we didn't love it the same as He does. Saying there's no justice in Christ's death for our sins does not seem just.

[Nic Samojluk]

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Overaged: Well, not all "predictions" made by God are "conditional." First, your wording here is not quite balanced. It should read, 'Some of God's promises, and prophecies are conditional.' Some of them apply no matter what our response.

True, not all predictions are conditional. The Second Coming, for example is not conditional. It will take place regardless of human wish, desire, or response. Perhaps I should have phrased this the way Ellen White has it:

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It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional. {Ev 695.1}

But even with this phrasing, we have to allow for exceptions, because the Second Coming is one of the promises the Lord made to God’s people.

This means that we can believe that the prediction found in Isaiah 53 was non-contingent on human response, or that the death of the Messiah was in fact contingent on the same. The interesting detail is that Is. 53: 10 was tranlated by several Bible interpreters on a contingency basis. Here are some examples:

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New American Standard Bible (©1995)

But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

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Douay-Rheims Bible

And the Lord was pleased to bruise him in infirmity: if he shall lay down his life for sin, he shall see a long-lived seed, and the will of the Lord shall be prosperous in his hand.

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Young's Literal Translation

And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed -- he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.

And even Jesus himself expressed his death on a contingency basis:

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New American Standard Bible (©1995)

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

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International Standard Version (©2008)

As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself."

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King James Bible

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

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American King James Version

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.

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American Standard Version

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

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Bible in Basic English

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will make all men come to me.

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Douay-Rheims Bible

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.

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Darby Bible Translation

and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me.

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English Revised Version

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

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Webster's Bible Translation

And I, if I shall be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.

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Weymouth New Testament

And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."

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World English Bible

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

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Young's Literal Translation

and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'

[Nic Samojluk]

Overage,

Since the topic of this thread is WO. Perhaps next time you respond you might post it in the other thread which was split of from this topic with almost an ientical name on it. This would make some of the participants of this blog happier. I was tempted to transfer this there, but then I was afraid that you wouldn't see it.

Next time I will probably post my response there and leave a link here instead. Sorry about this, but I actually realized about this problem after I had posted it here. I have no desire to make people unhappy.