Through the Bible: Genesis

[Nic Samojluk]

When I was a teenager, I developed the habit of reading the Bible through, a chapter or two every day, starting with Genesis and ending with the book of Revelation. When I was done, I would do it all over again, if possible in another version. The Bible became the main source of spiritual food for me, and I would read the Bible before I did anything else.

Soon, I discovered that, no matter how many times I had read the Bible, there was always something new to discover in its pages. A new way of seeing things, new encouragement for the obtacles I had to face in life, and new questions which challenged my thinking about life and doctrines.

At first, I started the habit of underlying some of the pasages which caught my attention, later on I switched to highlighting, and more recently I started the habit of copying certain passages and writing down my personal reaction and jotting down the things I still wonder as I read this sacred book.

The other day, as I began reading the Bible one more time, I thought that it might be interesting to share with others the things which pop into my mind as I read this Holy Book with the hope that some of you might help me understand it better.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. [Gen. 1:4]

Light dispels darkness in a split second. How should we understand this statement that God divided the light from the darkness? Does light have a separate existence from light or is it merely the absence of light? If darkness exists apart from light, where does it go when we turn the light on?

There is an anecdote about Albert Einstein. It states that when he was a student in college, the professor made fun of Christians who believe in God by asking the question: If God is the creator, then he is the one who created evil. Why should we worship the one who created such a monster?

On hearing this, Einstein responded: Evil is like darkness, it has no separate existence. It is merely the absence of good. No one created evil. God represents everything that is good. When there is an absence of good, then you have evil instead.

Was Einstein right in his defense of God?

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

And the earth brought forth the green herb, and such as yieldeth seed according to its kind, and the tree that beareth fruit having seed each one according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day. [Gen. 1:12, 13]

How did the vegetation manage to grow before the sun was created on day four? Did the Lord perform a miracle to make plants grow instead of utilizing the natural method with the help of the sun?

Do we find in Gensis an orderly and chronological account of the way the Lord carried out his creative work, or did the author perhaps resorted to poetry and drama in relating the work of the Creator?

[Nic Samojluk]

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And God made two great lights: a greater light to rule the day; and a lesser light to rule the night: and the stars. [Gen. 1:16]

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And the evening and morning were the fourth day. [id. 1:19]

This was on day four. Were the stars created on day four of creation week? First, as I mentioned in my previous post, we have the problem of the vegetation growing before the creation of the sun, and now we have the problem of the stars being created on the same day as well.

If the creation event took place approximately six thousands years ago, then how do we explain the fact that we see the lights of stars and galaxies which are millions of light years away from planet earth. Did God perform a miracle in order that we might see the stars today?

Is the universe in fact only approximately six thousand years old? Could it be that perhaps Genesis focus is on the creation of our planet, and the creation of the sun and the stars had taken place much earlier in time?

[Nic Samojluk]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. [Gen. 1:1-3] [/quote[

What is the point of reference of the "In the beginning" phrase? Is it the creation of planet earth, or the creation of the universe? We did note that on day four there is a mention of the creation of the sun and the stars. Could it be that perhaps this "beginning" refers to an event millions of years before God's activity connected with the creation of life on our planet?

Some theologians have suggested that the actual six-day creation activity of God begins with verse three, when the Lord said "Let there be light." The earth and the sun might have been in existence for millions of years, but on creation week the Lord decided to create life, and his first creative activity was the creation of light on planet earth.

Does this make sense?

[Nic Samojluk]

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The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. [Gen. 1:2]

The original basic meaning of the Hebrew term “ruach” for Spirit is “breath,” “spirit,” or “wind.” Would “wind of God” mean the same as “Spirit of God”? Was the “Spirit of God” chosen by the original Bible translators because of the Trinity dogma of the Catholic Church, which borrowed the concept of a triune God from paganism?

I once read the Hebrew term “ruach” defined as “presence.” If we were to accept such a connotation, this verse in Genesis would be reading as follows:

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The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the presence of God was moving over the surface of the waters. [Gen. 1:2]

or perhaps even as follows:

Quote:

The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and God’s invisible presence was moving over the surface of the waters. [Gen. 1:2]

Do non-Trinitarians have a right to translate this verse in that manner? We do know that the original Adventist pioneers were non-Trinitarians. Were they absolutely wrong on this belief?

[wayfinder]

John 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever ;

17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.... 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak ; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

15 "All things that the Father has are Mine ; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

John 20:20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit...

If we are able to describe God, then we can define Him and put Him in a box. God is beyond any humane definition. It is clear that God is not flesh and blood, but one member of the family of God became flesh and blood when He became the Son of God. We are told that God is spirit, what does that mean, that He is nothing but air? It means that God is what He is, as stated to Moses from the burning bush, "I am that I am". Jesus used this Name for Himself when He was questioned about His affiliation.

John 8:58 NAS

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

When God said "let us make mankind in Our image and after Our likeness" and male and female made He them. One would expect that one of the Creators had a feminine image and likeness.

When Jesus tells His disciples that He is sending them another Helper, He is definitely promising another member of the family of God. The Name God is the family name for the Father Son and Mother/Spirit. It is the Spirit of God that is giving birth to the remnant/sons of God, as described in Revelation 12:17. Her Firstborn was the King/Son of God and the last of Her offspring will fight the war against the dragon. The Holy Spirit is the Mother of the sons of the kingdom/of God.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Wayfinder: ... that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him ... [John 14:17]

My question would be: Was Jesus referring here to the third member of the Trinity, coequal with God the Father in power and authority? Was he referring to an angel—we know that angels are described in the Bible as spirits:

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Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? [Heb. 1:14]

Notice that according to Saint Peter, the Holy Spirit is in charge of revealing prophetic events to God’s prophets:

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For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. [2 Pet. 1:21]

Nevertheless, when we look at two of the most distinguished prophetic books of the Bible, what do we find? In Daniel the third member of the alleged Trinity seems to be absent, and the Angel Gabriel was performing the task assigned to the Holy Spirit. Not only that, but when Daniel is agonizing about the future of his people and there is a delay of 21 days in the revelatory experience, Gabriel apologizes to Daniel on the basis that he was busy lobbying in the Persian Court:

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13But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.” ... 21but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince. [Dan. 10]

Isn’t this surprising? Instead of the Holy Spirit coming to Daniel's side, it is Gabriel, and Michael who came to help him. But not only that. Gabriel adds that “No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.” If the Catholic dogma of the Trinity is true, then Gabriel could have said “No one supports me against them except the Holy Spirit and Michael, your prince.”

Now let us go the book of Revelation. Do we find the Holy Spirit there performing his task of revealing the future to John? The answer seem to be a negative one. We find there an angel again:

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1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, ... [Rev. 1]

Is the Holy Spirit included in the revelatory chain? The answer is “No.” We have God, Jesus Christ, God’s angel, and the John the prophet.

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Wayfinder: We are told that God is spirit, what does that mean, that He is nothing but air?

Yes, God is Spirit and Holy. His angels are spirits, and they are Holy. The term spirit is used to indicate that they are invisible to the naked eye. This is why Jesus said:

Quote:

... that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him ... [John 14:17]

This idea that the term spirit might be equivalent to the word “angel” is found in several passages of the Bible:

Quote:

26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopiand eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet. 29The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.” [Acts 8]

Notice that the author is talking about the angel of the Lord, and immediately after identifies him as “Spirit.” Of course, said Spirit was Holy. Could it be that the biblical references to the Holy Spirit are nothing more than either God’s angels whenever they manifest their invisible presence to human beings? This is rather evident in the Old Testament in the experience of Moses, Gideon, and others where the references to the Angel of the Lord, the Spirit of the Lord, and God are almost interchangeable.

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Wayfinder: When God said "let us make mankind in Our image and after Our likeness" and male and female made He them. One would expect that one of the Creators had a feminine image and likeness.

Let’s not forget that, according to Jesus, in heaven we will be like angels: sexless. There won’t be there males and females, but rather sexless beings. From this, I conclude that there is no sex in heaven. God’s creative power resides in his words—not in sexual activity.

[Gail]

Hey- I'm enjoyng this!

I gotta tell you, that when I read thoughts jotted down like this, without rebuttals from anyone else, just thoughts on how the Spirit has moved a heart, then I am free to toss the ideas in my own head.

I like it! :)

[wayfinder]

Nic, There are many verses where clearly the author is referring to the Spirit of God and not an angel, the following texts are just an example.

2 Kings 2:9 NAS

When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask what I shall do for you before I am taken from you." And Elisha said, "Please, let a double portion of your spirit be upon me."

2 Kings 2:15 Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho opposite him saw him, they said, "The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha." And they came to meet him and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

16 They said to him, "Behold now, there are with your servants fifty strong men, please let them go and search for your master ; perhaps the Spirit of the LORD has taken him up and cast him on some mountain or into some valley." And he said, "You shall not send."

Nehemiah 9:20 NAS

"You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth, And You gave them water for their thirst.

Nehemiah 9:30 NAS

"However, You bore with them for many years, And admonished them by Your Spirit through Your prophets, Yet they would not give ear. Therefore You gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.

Joel 2:28 NAS

[The Promise of the Spirit] "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind ; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.

Isaiah 44:3 NAS

'For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground ; I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring And My blessing on your descendants ;

Isaiah 59:21 NAS

"As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD : "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring," says the LORD, "from now and forever ."

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows : when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.

20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife ; .

21 "She will bear a Son ; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

Obviously I could write a book on this, and some day I may. There is a volume of evidence to indicate that there is a member of the family of God that is identified as the Spirit of God. When Jesus was teaching Nicodemus, He said that a man must be born again, once by water and once by the Spirit. Then Jesus uses the metaphore of wind, where it comes from and where it goes, no one knows. Jesus stated that it was a requirement that one be born again by the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. It is my understanding that this is the meaning of the Revelation 12 prophecy. The woman is the Spirit of God, not the church. Her firstborn is the Son of God and is caught up to God and to His throne. Then just prior to the "great tribulation" she is giving birth to the brothers and sisters of the Son of God. This fits exactly the context of Jesus account to Nicodemus.

In another post I will talk about the difference between the Angel of the Lord and an angel of the Lord.

[Nic Samojluk]

Hey- I'm enjoyng this!

I gotta tell you, that when I read thoughts jotted down like this, without rebuttals from anyone else, just thoughts on how the Spirit has moved a heart, then I am free to toss the ideas in my own head.

I like it!

Thanks for your comments. I hope you stay for the long journey!

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Wayfinder: Nic, There are many verses where clearly the author is referring to the Spirit of God and not an angel, the following texts are just an example.

Of course! This is due to the many connotation of the Hebrew term transliterated as “ruach.” Note how many meanings said term has, according to the Hebrew Lexicon:

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wind, breath, mind, spirit

1. breath

2. wind

1. of heaven

2. quarter (of wind), side

3. breath of air

4. air, gas

5. vain, empty thing

3. spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)

1. spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour

2. courage

3. temper, anger

4. impatience, patience

5. spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)

6. disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse

7. prophetic spirit

4. spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)

1. as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being

5. spirit (as seat of emotion)

1. desire

2. sorrow, trouble

6. spirit

1. as seat or organ of mental acts

2. rarely of the will

3. as seat especially of moral character

7. Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son

1. as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy

2. as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning

3. imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power

4. as endowing men with various gifts

5. as energy of life

6. as manifest in the Shekinah glory

7. never referred to as a depersonalised force

Translated Words

KJV (378) - Spirit or spirit, 232; air, 1; anger, 1; blast, 4; breath, 27; cool, 1; courage, 1; mind, 5; misc, 6; side, 6; vain, 2; wind, 92;

NAS (375) - Spirit, 76; air, 2; anger, 1; blast, 2; breath, 31; breathless, 1; cool, 1; courage, 1; despondency, 1; exposed, 1; grief, 1; heart, 1; inspired, 1; mind, 3; motives, 1; points, 1; quick-tempered, 1; side, 4; sides, 2; spirit, 127; spirits, 3; strength, 1; temper, 2; thoughts, 1; trustworthy, 1; wind, 98; winds, 7; windy, 2; wrath, 1;

http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=07307

Sometimes said term applies to God, other times to humans, and even to animals.

My suggestion is that when combined with the term “Elohim” the term “ruach” was rendered as the Spirit of God by most Bible translators. Why? Because Christianity inherited from Catholicism the dogma of the Trinity, which was borrowed from paganism in the fourth century A.D.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Wayfinder: There is a volume of evidence to indicate that there is a member of the family of God that is identified as the Spirit of God. When Jesus was teaching Nicodemus, He said that a man must be born again, once by water and once by the Spirit. Then Jesus uses the metaphor of wind, where it comes from and where it goes, no one knows.

The evidence is in the translations that we have, not in the original. Most Bible translators believed in the Catholic dogma of the Trinity, which was inherited by Protestants, and it eventually was adopted by Adventists. The original Adventist pioneers were non-Trinitarians, and their view of the Deity was closer to the truth, I believe, than we are today.

If we believe in this Catholic dogma, perhaps we should also adopt from Catholicism many of the other beliefs they borrowed from paganism like Sunday worship; the survival of the soul after death as a living, incorporeal and sentient entity; the purgatory; the priestly confession, and so on.

By the way, I have also come across the following connotation for the Hebrew term “ruach” which I like: “presence.” This meaning would fit quite well with many passages in the Bible where the Hebrew was translated as “the Spirit of the Lord,” “Holy Spirit,” or “ God’s Spirit.” And let’s not forget that the habit of capitalizing the term “ruach” as “Spirit” is due to the invention of capitalization which did not exist in the original.

When this connotation is applied to Gen. 1:2, we get the following rendering of said passage: “God’s presence moved over the waters.”

The idea that the term “presence” might be a reasonable synonym for “ruach” is evident from a passage found in Psalms:

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11Do not cast me from your presence

or take your Holy Spirit from me.

You are probably familiar with Hebraic poetry which is characterized by the use of parallelism, where the meaning of one line is repeated in the next line with a synonym expression. In this case the phrase “your presence” in the first line is replaced by the expression “Holy Spirit.” Take away the modern practice of capitalizing said phrase, and you get “holy spirit.” Of course, God’s presence is always holy, for which reason the use of “your presence” when used in reference to God is very appropriate when replaced with the phrase Holy Spirit.

The practice of assigning to God’s Spirit a separate identity as “co-equal” with God the Father is inappropriate, I believe. It destroys the idea of hierarchy in heaven. God the Father is supreme over everything which exists. No entity can replace him. Paul tells us that when the great controversy is over, even Jesus will be subject to God the Father.

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24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.”c Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

The above passage is a clear description of the heavenly hierarchy where even Jesus Christ is subject to the authority of God the Father. How can we assign to the Holy Spirit as someone “co-equal” with God the Father? I see in this the influence of Lucifer who wanted to be equal to God before his fall.

[wayfinder]

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Paul tells us that when the great controversy is over, even Jesus will be subject to God the Father.

You are absolutly right, that is exactly what Paul is saying. I have done a thorough exposition on Paul, that he was not an apostle of God, as he presents himself to be.

Revelation 2:2 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;

John 10:30 NAS

"I and the Father are one."

Exodus 3:2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush ; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.

3 So Moses said, "I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up."

4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses !" And he said, "Here I am."

Exodus 3:14 NAS

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM "; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

John 8:58 NAS

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

I can provide texts that would offer ample evidence to conclude that Father, Spirit and their member who takes the form of their created beings. The angel Michael (who is like God) goes by the names Michael and the angel of the Lord. He is not an angel, but has the form of an angel. When He was born of a woman He took the form of humanity, but was the same being that was Michael the angel of the Lord.

Exodus 23:20 "Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.

21 "Be on your guard before him and obey his voice ; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him.

22 "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.

23 "For My angel will go before you and bring you in to the land of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites ; and I will completely destroy them.

John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jesus is making this statement in His prayer and saying that He and the Father were equal before the world was. The Spirit of God is the Spirit that makes us one with God. We in God and God in us.

John 17:20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word ;

21 that they may all be one ; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

[John317]

Quote:

Nic Samojluk: Is the universe in fact only approximately six thousand years old? Could it be that perhaps Genesis focus is on the creation of our planet, and the creation of the sun and the stars had taken place much earlier in time?

Yes, and mention in the creation narrative of the stars is like a parenthsis, saying, "by the way, he made the stars also." It's a mistake to think that the passage is saying all the stars were made on that day. As you say, the context shows that the writer's focus is on the creation of man's environment, earth.

[steve9534]

A couple of random thoughts on the discussion. The Hebrew doesn't require the reading that the stars were made on the fourth day, only that God made the stars, too. God made light before he made the plants. In heaven there is no need for the light of the sun because the Lord God is the light of it. Because the sun had not yet been made doesn't mean that there was no light and there could not have been plants. Regardless, the plants could have survived for a day w/o the light of the sun.

I am not sure what your point is about the angel and the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in every encounter between God and man doesn't mean there is no HS. A quick search of the NIV Bilble yielded 93 references to the HS, including Jesus promise that the Father would send the HS to those who ask for Him, so I think it's fair to say that Jesus and the Bible writers believed in the HS. Hope this helps. steve.

[John317]

Quote:

Nic Samojluk (quoting): "The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." [Gen. 1:2]

The original basic meaning of the Hebrew term “ruach” for Spirit is “breath,” “spirit,” or “wind.” Would “wind of God” mean the same as Spirit of God?

No, because the Spirit of God does things that only a person can do. The Spirit of God teaches and guides and also can be lied to. No one can lie to the wind, nor can the wind teach and guide us.

Quote:

Nic Samojluk: Was the “Spirit of God” chosen by the original Bible translators because of the Trinity dogma of the Catholic Church, which borrowed the concept of a triune God from paganism?

I don't believe so. As you say, "Spirit" is a perfectly good translation of the word ruach. I can't see how it could mean "the wind of God" or "the breath of God," although there are some verses where "breath of God's mouth" refers to the creative Spirit of God. "Spirit of God" seems clearly to fit best in the context of Gen. 1: 2, because it's speaking of the creation of the world, and the Scriptures tell us that the Spirit of God was involved in the creation of the world.

This means that the world was created by the Father, the Word (the pre-existent Christ), and the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

Nic Samojluk: I once read the Hebrew term “ruach” defined as presence.

Do you know of any verse in the Bible where ruach is, or should be, translated as "presence"? The word that is translated "presence" is a completely different word in Hebrew. However, the Spirit of God is certainly the very presence of God since the Holy Spirit is in fact God.

Quote:

Nic Samojluk: If we were to accept such a connotation, this verse in Genesis would be reading as follows:

"The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the presence of God was moving over the surface of the waters." [Gen. 1:2]

Who or what do you understand by "the presence of God"? And what does it mean to say "the presence of God was moving over the surface of the waters"?

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Nic Samojluk: Do non-Trinitarians have a right to translate this verse in that manner?

I think they have a right to translate it any way they like. Our Jehovah's Witness friends have chosen to translate it "active force." But whether it's a correct translation is an entirely different matter.

It's doubtful that "the presence of God" communicates the correct idea behind the original language. It isn't found in any of the standard Hebrew-English lexicons, nor is it in any of the English translations. Check out The Complete Word Study Old Testament.

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We do know that the original Adventist pioneers were non-Trinitarians. Were they absolutely wrong on this belief?

They were right in many of their beliefs on it. But they were also wrong in some important ways. Some thought Christ was a creature. Others thought the Holy Spirit was a thing or merely a power or influence.

Our pioneers were mixed in their views on the doctrine of the Godhead and it was never an issue of intense study or discussion.

There were some even among our ministers in the early SDA church who believed in the Trinity, and they were never asked to change their views. The issue of the Trinity was never viewed by the leaders as a test or as an official doctrine of the church. James White had almost nothing to say about it, and he changed his views of it. All of the other leaders also underwent great changes in their views of the Godhead during those years. Nor did they agree with each other on the Godhead. They really didn't consider it important to agree on it. They had a church to build, and its purpose was to preach the Three Angels Messages, the Sabbath, and prepare the world for the second coming. The doctrine of the Godhead was far down on their priorities. They were right not to agitate about it or to cause division over it.

When we study carefully what they wrote and what was going on in the church at that time, we find that James and Ellen White didn't always see eye to eye on the Trinity, and also they were battling against a spiritualized view of the Trinity. They weren't fighting against the view of the Trinity that the SDA church adopted. They were battling against false views of the Godhead, such as those of John H. Kellogg. SDAs don't believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Godhead.

The bottom line is that they would want us to study the Bible to find truth and not base it on their beliefs. What do you think, Nic?

[John317]

Welcome to the Forum, steve. I hope you enjoy it and have a good experience and a blessing.

I think you've made some helpful suggestions.

[wayfinder]

A couple of random thoughts on the discussion. The Hebrew doesn't require the reading that the stars were made on the fourth day, only that God made the stars, too. God made light before he made the plants. In heaven there is no need for the light of the sun because the Lord God is the light of it. Because the sun had not yet been made doesn't mean that there was no light and there could not have been plants. Regardless, the plants could have survived for a day w/o the light of the sun.

I am not sure what your point is about the angel and the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in every encounter between God and man doesn't mean there is no HS. A quick search of the NIV Bilble yielded 93 references to the HS, including Jesus promise that the Father would send the HS to those who ask for Him, so I think it's fair to say that Jesus and the Bible writers believed in the HS. Hope this helps. steve.

I know that the Holy Spirit is a real being, my support of the Holy Spirit as being a member of the family called God was in response to Nic, who was questioning the "trinity". Myself, I don't use the term "trinity" because I do not see God as three supreme guys running everything. I see a devine family, Father, Mother (Holy Spirit) and Son. We have been told that if we keep the commandments of God and hold to the testmony of the Son of God we will be born into the family called God.

Revelation 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Typically, the Woman in this text is believed to be the "Church". I believe that She is representitive of the Holy Spirit, because we have been told that we must be born of the Holy Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. This Woman's Firstborn Son is the Son of God (Jesus) and the last of Her offspring are under threat by the dragon, who is preparing to wage war against them.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Gail

Hey- I'm enjoyng this!

I gotta tell you, that when I read thoughts jotted down like this, without rebuttals from anyone else, just thoughts on how the Spirit has moved a heart, then I am free to toss the ideas in my own head.

I like it!

Thanks for your comments. I hope you stay for the long journey!

EXTRA good thread Nic!

[Nic Samojluk]

Wayfinder,

Your long response is appreciated. Nevertheless, I am interested in getting a summary of the conclusions you arrive at from all those biblical quotations. For some reason, I am having a hard time guessing what you are attempting to convey. It is probably my fault, and I need some help. Talk to me as if I were a small child. I hate having to engage in hard guess work. I will comment only on what I did understand.

Quote:

Wayfinder: I have done a thorough exposition on Paul, that he was not an apostle of God, as he presents himself to be.

You probably have good reasons for questioning the apostleship of Paul. Can you elaborate?

Quote:

Wayfinder: The angel Michael (who is like God) goes by the names Michael and the angel of the Lord. He is not an angel, but has the form of an angel.

I don’t see why this would be a problem, since the original connotation of the term “angel” is “messenger.” A messenger is one who is bringing a message. The message can be conveyed by an angel or by Michael—which is equivalent to Jesus before his incarnation, I believe.

Quote:

Wayfinder quoting the OT: "Be on your guard before him and obey his voice ; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him.

I am glad you cited this passage. Trinitarians use the unpardonable sin to prove that the Holy Spirit is the third member of the Godhead—coequal with God the Father. Here we discover that Jesus was quoting the OT when he warned us about the unpardonable sin, and we discover that what Trinitarians believe is a proof for their dogma is actually a reference to an angel. If the unpardonable sin is in fact an offense against an angel, then what do we do with the dogma of the Trinity?

Quote:

John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” Jesus is making this statement in His prayer and saying that He and the Father were equal before the world was.

I fail to see the connection. The text says nothing about Jesus equality with God the Father. This is contradicted in 1 Cor. 15 where a heavenly hierarchy is described with Jesus subjecting himself under the authority of God the Father.

Quote:

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Of course, if you believe that Paul was a false apostle, then you probably would discard Paul’s opinion on this! Am I right?

[steve9534]

I'm remembering why I don't come here much. What starts out as a discussion of Gen. 1 ends with disputes over the nature of the Trinity, whether there is a HS, whether Paul is a real apostle or not, and what exactly is an angel??? Nothing is certain. steve.

[Gail]

Didja hear that, everybody?

[Gail]

Which would be a good thing. I was enjoying it as it started out.

[wayfinder]

I appologize for annoying some and angering others. I do not appologize for refusing to accept anything written or influenced by Paul. It is my understanding that if, as believed by most, the Bible is the word of God from cover to cover then what Paul says should be consistant with the entire corpus, it is not. I would be happy to have a separate thread on the teachings of Paul as compared to the teachings of the Son of God, although I know that most would not want to waste their time.

This thread, on Genesis 1, started with a question on the person of the Spirit of God, that is how the members of the family of God discussion started. The subject of Paul and his involvement in this came from 1 Corinthians 15:28. If Paul is telling the truth then Christ will submit to and put Himself in subjection to the Father, this is clearly false. Jesus stated, "I and the Father are One", one cannot be one with someone else and be more or less then the one they are one with (there is a tongue twister). Jesus is one with His Father, because they share the same Spirit. The Spirit is in them and in those who are in the kingdom of God. Those who complete the sanctification process (John 17:17), will receive the Spirit of God and be one with the Father and one with the Son. The righteous will be in the Son of God and in the Father.

Revelation 3:21(NASB) 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.'