What I Learned About Abortion & the Adventist Church

[Nic Samojluk]

Introduction:

You are probably familiar with the book written by Robert Fulghum entitled “All I Really Need To Know I Learned In Kindergarten.” Of course, I borrowed the idea for this thread from said book, but what I learned about abortion I did not learn in kindergarten, but rather in old age.

When the Adventist Church approved the document entitled “Guidelines on Abortion,” nearly two decades ago, I got very interested in this topic for two reasons: A. I grew up in Argentina where abortion is still illegal and B. I had the strong suspicion that the Adventist pioneers were strongly pro-life.

I decided to investigate this matter. I was nearly sixty at the time, and I used approximately 150 percent of my free time to this intensive research. The things I discovered shocked me no end. They may shocked you as well. I thought that it is my moral duty to share this with you. My aim is to publish a book about this topic, if the Lord permits and if I am still alive by the time I am able to finish it.

[Nic Samojluk]

Lesson One:

Quote:

"Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, so that there may come times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord, [Acts 3:19]

The first lesson I learned is that the merciful Lord we have is willing to forgive all sins, including the sin of abortion, provided we repent. The problem is as follows:

A. How can Adventist women who have had an abortion repent when the Adventist Church is silent about this issue? Isn’t the practice of shedding the blood of innocent human beings condemned in the Bible? Is an unborn baby a human being or not? Does size disqualify the unborn baby from membership in the human race? Is it right to take the life of a human being?

B. How can these women repent if our pastors never preach against the evils of abortion? Have you heard an Adventist pastor preach against the sin of abortion lately? Have you read recently any article published in our Adventist media condemning the killing of the unborn?

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. [is. 1:18]

The first lesson I learned is that the merciful Lord we have is willing to forgive all sins, including the sin of abortion, provided we repent. The problem is as follows:

C. How can Adventist women who have had an abortion repent if our “Guidelines of Abortion” state that Jesus Christ died to restore our “freedom of choice”? Did Jesus really die to grant us the freedom to take the life of our own children? If this is true, then perhaps Jesus also died to grant us the freedom to rape women, to sexually abuse little children, and to steal the property of others.

It is true that we are free to engage in criminal activity, but there are serious consequences if we do so and are caught. We are free to shoot at the president, and some have done so, but said individuals may end in jail of the electric chair. The Bible states that Jesus came to free us from sin, not to guarantee our freedom to sin.

D. How can these women repent if our “Ministry” magazine reported a few years ago the result of a survey revealing that five of our Adventist hospitals were offering ELECTIVE abortion services to their patients. Elective abortions were not designed to save the life of a pregnant woman, but rather to protect their lifestyle.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. [1 John 1:9]

The first lesson I learned is that the merciful Lord we have is willing to forgive all sins, including the sin of abortion, provided we repent. The problem is as follows:

E. How can Adventist women who have had an abortion repent if the President of the North American Division of the Adventist Church publicly declared a few decades ago that the Adventist Church was leaning towards abortion because there were too many people and too much hunger in the world? Is killing human beings the proper way to evangelize the world? Adventists have complained that the Adventist Church is not growing in North America. How can our church grow if we are decimating the future members of our church?

F. How can these women repent if our “Guidelines on Abortion” state that choosing the abortion option might be morally acceptable under a variety of circumstances--which have nothing to do with saving the life of the pregnant woman--like: rape, incest, when the pregnant female is a minor, and even when the pregnancy is beginning to have an effect on the woman’s mental health? Have you ever seen a female who is facing an unexpected pregnancy free from a temporary mental depression? Does a temporary mental depression justify the permanent deprivation of life of an innocent unborn baby?

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. [Psalm 51:7 ]

The first lesson I learned is that the merciful Lord we have is willing to forgive all sins, including the sin of abortion, provided we repent. The problem is as follows:

G. How can Adventist women who have had an abortion repent of having taken the life of their own unborn child if one of our own hospitals have been described by a General Conference representative as an “abortion mill”? A few years ago, there was a pro-life demonstration with large signs reading: Adventists: Remember the Sixth Commandment! Aren’t Adventists supposed to keep all of God’s Commandments? How can we criticize the Catholic Church for modifying the Fourth Commandment if we have watered down the Sixth one which forbids murder?

H. How can Adventist women repent if we are repeating the mistake made by our Adventist leaders in Germany when the genocide of six million Jews was taking place under Hitler? Are you aware that recently the German and Austrian leaders of the Adventist Church issued a joint public declaration apologizing for the Adventist cooperation with the Nazi regime half a century ago.

Quote:

He who conceals his transgressions will not prosper, But he who confesses and forsakes them will find compassion. [Proverbs 28:13]

[GreatLakesGramma]

How can Adventist women repent if ....

Anybody can repent any time they are convicted by God they have sinned. They don't need a church to tell them, they need to read the Bible prayerfully for themselves.

[phkrause]

Anybody can repent any time they are convicted by God they have sinned. They don't need a church to tell them, they need to read the Bible prayerfully for themselves.

Good point GLG.

pk

[Woody]

As usual ... I find myself supporting the President of the General Conference on this issue. But I respect anyone who sees it differently. Like GLG said ... you don't need a church to decide what is sin and what isn't. Go to God. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin.

[phkrause]

Nic

I'm not for abortion, let me get that out of the way. But I am for choice! God created us with choice. Now also if I'm not mistaken, and unfortunitely, in this country abortion is not illegal. I also believe that all christians are not in the same place in there walk with the Lord, or in your view are they? I know of at least 2 girls, who did have abortions when they were very young and probably not at the same place you are right now in your walk with the Lord. Now as they are older I would hope that they have asked for forgiveness for this, as I also hope that there walk with the Lord has gotten better than when they where in there teens.

pk

[Woody]

Nic

I'm not for abortion, let me get that out of the way. But I am for choice! God created us with choice. Now also if I'm not mistaken, and unfortunitely, in this country abortion is not illegal. I also believe that all christians are not in the same place in there walk with the Lord, or in your view are they? I know of at least 2 girls, who did have abortions when they were very young and probably not at the same place you are right now in your walk with the Lord. Now as they are older I would hope that they have asked for forgiveness for this, as I also hope that there walk with the Lord has gotten better than when they where in there teens.

pk

Excellent. Well stated pk. TU

[Dr. Shane]

I do think the freedom of choice needs to be limited. I think it is a good thing that parents are not given the freedom of choice to beat their children. I also think it is good that private property is protected against those who may want to use their freedom of choice to steal my personal belongings. I am quite glad that drunk drivers don't get the freedom of choice to drive if they want.

That said, it is very clear that banning abortion doesn't result in less abortions being performed. In fact, the evidence tells us more abortions are performed in nations where it is banned. Since I think abortions are a bad thing, I want them to stay legal so we have less of them.

Rather than using the strong arm of the civil government, we need to reach people's minds and win hearts. That is how we prepare the world for the second coming of Christ.

[there buster]

Quote:

it is very clear that banning abortion doesn't result in less abortions being performed

I don't think the statistics indicate that at all. The number of abortions in the U.S. before Roe v. Wade was a tiny fraction of what it is today. And even if it were true, it's still an obviously foolish statement.

Outlawing murder doesn't eliminate murder, either. Does that mean we should legalize murder? How about rape? Theft? We can't stop them, so let's legalize them. Ridiculous reasoning.

[John317]

Quote:

Shane: I think it is a good thing that parents are not given the freedom of choice to beat their children.

How about spanking? You see a difference? Should the state allow it?

When abortions were illegal here, many women would go to incompetent people who harmed or killed the women in the process.

So making it illegal isn't going to prevent people from getting them if they really want to get them.

Quote:

Shane: Rather than using the strong arm of the civil government, we need to reach people's minds and win hearts. That is how we prepare the world for the second coming of Christ.

Amen!

[karl]

Quote:

Shane: I think it is a good thing that parents are not given the freedom of choice to beat their children.

How about spanking? You see a difference? Should the state allow it?

When abortions were illegal here, many women would go to incompetent people who harmed or killed the women in the process.

So making it illegal isn't going to prevent people from getting them if they really want to get them.

Quote:

Shane: Rather than using the strong arm of the civil government, we need to reach people's minds and win hearts. That is how we prepare the world for the second coming of Christ.

Amen!

Sticky wicket here. A society which debates whether it is child abuse to spank born children, yet decides it is legal to murder unborn children is a little more than sick.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Rather than using the strong arm of the civil government, we need to reach people's minds and win hearts. That is how we prepare the world for the second coming of Christ.

[Dr. Shane]

The number of abortions in the U.S. before Roe v. Wade was a tiny fraction of what it is today.

Abortion on demand is a bad idea. Abortion rates in the US have been among the highest in the world. Laws which discourage abortion altogether and ban it after 12 weeks are needed. Some Europeans countries, like The Netherlands and Belgum have the lowest rates of abortion in the world and should be a model of how to deal with the crisis.

The Mexican abortion rate is 33:1,000 and the US abortion rate is around 20:1,000 although it has been as high as 29:1,000 in some years after Roe. V. Wade. The Netherlands is around 6:1,000.

This is the significance of those statistics.

Mexico (Abortion banned) 33:1,000

US (Abortion on demand) 20:1,000

Netherlands (Abortion restricted) 6:1,000

[there buster]

Quote:

The Netherlands and Belgum

Together, the population of the Netherlands and Belgium is 27 million. Less than one tenth of the U.S. population, and ethnically much more homogeneous than the U.S.

We often hear these relatively tiny and homogeneous countries held up as models. Most of our individual states are ethnically more diverse, and several have larger populations. These countries are almost never useful models.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

How can Adventist women repent if ....

Anybody can repent any time they are convicted by God they have sinned. They don't need a church to tell them, they need to read the Bible prayerfully for themselves.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

Anybody can repent any time they are convicted by God they have sinned. They don't need a church to tell them, they need to read the Bible prayerfully for themselves.

Good point GLG.

pk

The fact that the Holy Spirit has a responsibility to perform does not negate the fact that the church's has a duty to perform hers. Consider the reprimand the Lord sent to Eli the Priest through a little boy named Samuel.

Eli did not fulfill his responsibility and the entire nation of Israel suffered the consequences. Samuel did perform his duty and the nation of Israel was led to repentance and the Lord was able to free them from their bondage to their enemies.

When the Lord called Ezekiel to his role as spokesperson for the nation of Israel, he made it very clear in Ez. 33 that if he were to fail to perform his duty of calling people to repentance, the Lord would hold him responsible for the death of sinners who did not repent.

[Nic Samojluk]

As usual ... I find myself supporting the President of the General Conference on this issue. But I respect anyone who sees it differently. Like GLG said ... you don't need a church to decide what is sin and what isn't. Go to God. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Pkrause said: I'm not for abortion, let me get that out of the way. But I am for choice! God created us with choice.

True! I am also for the moral freedom to sin or not to sin; nevertheless, the role of the church is to warn the people about the consequences of sinning. God told Ezekiel that if he failed in his duty to call people to repentance, the Lord would hold him responsible for the sinners’ death. This is serious stuff. The role of the church is to call people to repentance, not to entertain people with captivating anecdotes which to not lead people to repentance and forgiveness.

We are free to sin and to rebel against God’s will and his Commandments, but if we do this there will be terrible consequences for us and our children. I am free to rape an innocent woman, and to sexually abuse little children, and to burglarize a store and steal my neighbor’s property; I am also free to shoot at the president, but if I choose to engage in all these unethical behaviors I may end in jail or the electric chair.

Any parent who fails to warn his/her children about the consequences of engaging in criminal behavior is guilty of failure to perform his/her duties as parents. The church’s duty is to warn people about the terrible consequences of sin. The Bible describes pastors who sleep at their post as dogs who won’t bark. A church which fails to preach against sin is guilty of dereliction of duty and the Lord will hold its leaders responsible for failing to do what they were hired to perform.

Quote:

Pkrause said: ... in this country abortion is not illegal

True. Adultery and marital infidelity are likewise not illegal. Does it follow that Christians can engage in those behaviors with impunity? Will the Lord give us a pass because certain immoral actions are not punishable by law? Will God free us from the consequences of disregarding his moral requirements?

Quote:

Pkrause said: Now as they are older I would hope that they have asked for forgiveness for this, as I also hope that there walk with the Lord has gotten better than when they where in there teens.

I hope so too, but the Lord may hold the church and her parents responsible for making young people believe that killing their own unborn children is morally neutral. In the Bible there is a passage suggesting that silence is equivalent to approval. There is a text which says that when a minor makes a promise to the Lord and the parent fails to negate its validity, then the promise becomes binding.

If the church remains silent while millions of innocent unborn babies are destroyed, do you think that God will look the other way? When the church disregards its sacred responsibility of calling sinners to repentance, the organization becomes simply another country club. Is this the kind of church you envision and desire?"

[Guest]

... in this country abortion is not illegal

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Nic

I'm not for abortion, let me get that out of the way. But I am for choice! God created us with choice. Now also if I'm not mistaken, and unfortunitely, in this country abortion is not illegal. I also believe that all christians are not in the same place in there walk with the Lord, or in your view are they? I know of at least 2 girls, who did have abortions when they were very young and probably not at the same place you are right now in your walk with the Lord. Now as they are older I would hope that they have asked for forgiveness for this, as I also hope that there walk with the Lord has gotten better than when they where in there teens.

pk

Excellent. Well stated pk. TU

Please, read my response to Pkrause and tell me whether you still believe that his opinion has your approval.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Shane said: That said, it is very clear that banning abortion doesn't result in less abortions being performed. In fact, the evidence tells us more abortions are performed in nations where it is banned. Since I think abortions are a bad thing, I want them to stay legal so we have less of them.

If what you are saying is true, then perhaps we should also legalize rape, sexual abuse of little children, the sale of illegal drugs and stealing.

We prosecute and send to the jail house those caught selling illegal drugs which harm drug addicts, but we legally protect those who—not merely harm human beings—but either poison them or dismember them with impunity.

What is worse, giving a person marihuana and crack cocaine or poisoning and dismembering the body of an innocent baby? Which action results in more serious consequences to their health? Which action result in more damage to the victim?

How can we be so blind to see what society is doing to our own children? Killing enemies is serious stuff, but killing the future soldiers and workers of our country is much more serious.

Taking the lives of our own children is the worse crime the devil has ever invented and you seem to side with those advocating the freedom to choose? To choose to kill and destroy human beings?

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

There buster said: I don't think the statistics indicate that at all. The number of abortions in the U.S. before Roe v. Wade was a tiny fraction of what it is today. And even if it were true, it's still an obviously foolish statement.

You are right! I do agree with you. Statistics reveal that the claim that the legalization of abortion did reduce the number of abortion is another lie perpetrated by the defenders of the alleged right to take the lives of millions of American unborn babies.

I am surprised that some people ignore a set of data provided by those engaged in the abortion business, but prefer to believe other contradictory data which the same organization is providing in order to promote the killing of the unborn. Both set of data cannot be true. If the readers of this forum believe that they are, then I sugggest they me a logical explanation for such confusing information coming from the same source!

Why would the defenders of abortion report 744,600 abortions in the U.S. for 1973, one million by 1975, and 1.5 million for 1983, and at the same time argue that the legalization of abortion tends to diminish the number of abortions. Can’t we see the contradiction here? The data contradicts their argument in defense of abortion.

Can’t we see here a repeat of the same inflated figures for illegal abortions which were fed up to the media before 1973 in an attempt to deceive the public and thus reach the goal of legalizing the killing of the unborn? Did you ever read the confession of Dr. Nathanson, who was responsible for said inflated figures? When the number of illegal abortions was estimated at 100,000, he reported said figures to be one million. Are these tactics credible, especially when we know the source of said reports?

Would we rely on statistics coming from the tobacco industry regarding the incidence of lung cancer? How come society relies on statistics provided by the abortion industry? If legalizing abortion tends to reduce the incidence of abortion, then perhaps we should legalize all criminal behavior in order to reduce crime.