What I Learned About Abortion & the Adventist Church

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Shane: I think it is a good thing that parents are not given the freedom of choice to beat their children.

How about spanking? You see a difference? Should the state allow it?

When abortions were illegal here, many women would go to incompetent people who harmed or killed the women in the process.

So making it illegal isn't going to prevent people from getting them if they really want to get them.

Quote:

Shane: Rather than using the strong arm of the civil government, we need to reach people's minds and win hearts. That is how we prepare the world for the second coming of Christ.

Amen!

John,

Yes, reaching their hearts is great, but when reaching their hearts fails, then the solution is to reach the children's behinds. This is the way the Lord operates. Have you read the Bible lately? Does the Lord limit his response to rebellion by simply reaching their hearts.

What does the Bible tell you about how God deals with people and nations? How did the Lord reach the hearts of the inabitants of the sinful city of Nineveh? How about the city of Sodom, or the pre=flood generation? How did the Lord deal with his chosen nation?

[Nic Samojluk]

A society which debates whether it is child abuse to spank born children, yet decides it is legal to murder unborn children is a little more than sick.

Karl,

Thanks for instilling a little bit of sanity into this discussion!

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Rather than using the strong arm of the civil government, we need to reach people's minds and win hearts. That is how we prepare the world for the second coming of Christ.

Yes, that is one way. Another way is telling the sinner: Repent or you are toast. That was the method God applied to the sinful inhabitants of Nineveh. When the ideal method doesn't work, a little bit of fear of the Lord can do miracles.

Sometimes we need to reach the hearts of people with the Bible and telling them in no uncertain terms that the Lord will reach their behinds if they refuse to mend their ways.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: there buster

The number of abortions in the U.S. before Roe v. Wade was a tiny fraction of what it is today.

Abortion on demand is a bad idea. Abortion rates in the US have been among the highest in the world. Laws which discourage abortion altogether and ban it after 12 weeks are needed. Some Europeans countries, like The Netherlands and Belgum have the lowest rates of abortion in the world and should be a model of how to deal with the crisis.

The Mexican abortion rate is 33:1,000 and the US abortion rate is around 20:1,000 although it has been as high as 29:1,000 in some years after Roe. V. Wade. The Netherlands is around 6:1,000.

This is the significance of those statistics.

Mexico (Abortion banned) 33:1,000

US (Abortion on demand) 20:1,000

Netherlands (Abortion restricted) 6:1,000

Shane,

Can we rely on statistics coming from Mexico and the Netherlands? Have you read the book “How to Lie with Statistics”? Sadam Hussein used to report that the overwhelming majority had voted for him after every election. He failed to report, of course, that he had the nasty habit of severing the tongue of those who dared to criticize his regime. Who is reporting those statistics? Is it by any chance the providers of abortion in those countries? Would you rely on statistics about smoking provided by the tobacco industry?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Pkrause

... in this country abortion is not illegal

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

True. Adultery and marital infidelity are likewise not illegal. Does it follow that Christians can engage in those behaviors with impunity? Will the Lord give us a pass because certain immoral actions are not punishable by law? Will God free us from the consequences of disregarding his moral requirements?

Nic, you have made the point very well, that just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's ok in God's eyes. What you have said here is true.

Hi Richard!

It is good to see you here and siding with what is right. Keep up the good work!

[John317]

Quote:

karl: A society which debates whether it is child abuse to spank born children, yet decides it is legal to murder unborn children is a little more than sick.

Quote:

Nic Samojluk: Karl,

Thanks for instilling a little bit of sanity into this discussion!

I think it's important to examine closely the whole question of how much government should be involved in the lives of individuals and of families. There are many people who've gone to jail, and seen their children removed from them, simply because they were seen slapping or spanking their children. I don't believe this is right.

I see a clear and important distinction between genuine child abuse and the parents right and responsibility to discipline their own children.

I favor the right of women to choose whether to have abortions or not, even though I myself oppose them. At the same time, though, I also favor the right of the people to make the laws they want through their representatives, including laws prohibiting abortion. I'm completely against the courts' making laws from the bench. These laws ought to originate only with the people directly by means of propositions or through the state and federal legislatures.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Pkrause

... in this country abortion is not illegal

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

True. Adultery and marital infidelity are likewise not illegal. Does it follow that Christians can engage in those behaviors with impunity? Will the Lord give us a pass because certain immoral actions are not punishable by law? Will God free us from the consequences of disregarding his moral requirements?

Nic, you have made the point very well, that just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's ok in God's eyes. What you have said here is true.

I'm with you Nic.

g

[GreatLakesGramma]

After reading this and perhaps the entire Chapter 33 of Ezekiel, do you still think that it won’t make a difference whether the church preaches against sin or not?

I never said the church has no responsibility. But you kept saying "how CAN Adventist women repent..." as if it's impossible for them to do so unless the church gives the correct message. And that is simply not true.

[phkrause]

Adultery and marital infidelity are likewise not illegal. Does it follow that Christians can engage in those behaviors with impunity? Will the Lord give us a pass because certain immoral actions are not punishable by law? Will God free us from the consequences of disregarding his moral requirements?

And where did I say that?????????

pk

[Dr. Shane]

Together, the population of the Netherlands and Belgium is 27 million. Less than one tenth of the U.S. population, and ethnically much more homogeneous than the U.S.

Germany has a low abortion rate too. Abortions are banned after 12 weeks. Mandatory counseling and waiting period is required.

Idaho has a very low abortion rate but it also has mandatory counseling and minor consent laws.

Kentucky also has a very low abortion rate. It has mandatory counseling, mandatory waiting period, minor consent laws and prohibits insurance from paying for abortion except in cases of rape, incest or to save the mother's life.

Putting restrictions on abortion works. This is how we reduce abortions and save lives. Banning abortion doesn't work. That is how we create a black market where more babies continue to die and often times their mothers with them.

[Dr. Shane]

If what you are saying is true, then perhaps we should also legalize rape, sexual abuse of little children, the sale of illegal drugs and stealing.

What I am saying is true of abortion but not true of rape, sexual abuse of children, illegal drugs or stealing. If legalizing those things decreased the frequency of them, it would make sense to legalize them. But, unlike abortion, there is no data to show that to be the case. So, we should put the strawmen arguments away and actually talk about the facts we have.

[Dr. Shane]

Yes, reaching their hearts is great, but when reaching their hearts fails, then the solution is to reach the children's behinds. This is the way the Lord operates. Have you read the Bible lately?

Sounds more like a doctrine from the Vatican than the Bible.

[Dr. Shane]

Shane,

Can we rely on statistics coming from Mexico and the Netherlands?

Yes.

[Gerr]

Since the members of the Church are not in unanimous agreement that abortion is Biblically proscribed, it cannot be making hard and fast rules about it. I am personally against it, especially if it is done for convenience, or done after the first trimester. But I would have no qualms aborting a pregnancy that is the result of rape, or if the mother's life is in jeopardy, or if the conceptus/fetus is known to have severe retardation or serious genetic defect.

[Nic Samojluk]

I favor the right of women to choose whether to have abortions or not, even though I myself oppose them.

Let me rephrase what you stated by replacing the term abortion [killing of an innocent human being] with less serious moral offenses. When I do this, I get the following result:

I favor the right of men to choose whether to rape a woman or not, even though I myself oppose this.

I favor the right of men to choose whether to sexually abuse little children or not, even though I myself oppose this.

I favor the right of people to choose whether to steal and burglarize or not, even though I myself oppose this.

I favor the right of people to choose whether to sell illicit drugs or not, even though I myself oppose this.

I favor the right of people to choose whether to engage in prostitution or not, even though I myself oppose this.

Now tell me why your original statement is right and my paraphrases of your original statement are wrong, and tell me why.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

True. Adultery and marital infidelity are likewise not illegal. Does it follow that Christians can engage in those behaviors with impunity? Will the Lord give us a pass because certain immoral actions are not punishable by law? Will God free us from the consequences of disregarding his moral requirements?

Nic' date=' you have made the point very well, that just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's ok in God's eyes. What you have said here is true.

Originally Posted By: Olger

I'm with you Nic.[/quote']

Olger,

Thanks! It's good to get some support once in a while.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

After reading this and perhaps the entire Chapter 33 of Ezekiel, do you still think that it won’t make a difference whether the church preaches against sin or not?

I never said the church has no responsibility. But you kept saying "how CAN Adventist women repent..." as if it's impossible for them to do so unless the church gives the correct message. And that is simply not true.

Thanks for clarifying! Perhaps I shoud rephrase my question as follows: "Won't many women have a diminished chance of repenting and asking forgiveness if the church is silent about the evil of abortion?"

Would you approve this amended version of my question?

[Nic Samojluk]

You made the following statements:

I'm not for abortion, let me get that out of the way. But I am for choice! God created us with choice.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

There are moral consequences to the infringement of God’s Holy Law which was designed to protect the lives of innocent human beings.

Then let God be the Judge. Not you.

[Nic Samojluk]

Putting restrictions on abortion works. This is how we reduce abortions and save lives. Banning abortion doesn't work.

[Dr. Shane]

Since you are relying on statistics which tend to support your theory that abortions restrictions do not work.

[Nic Samojluk]

Shane,

What I am saying is true of abortion but not true of rape, sexual abuse of children, illegal drugs or stealing

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Yes, reaching their hearts is great, but when reaching their hearts fails, then the solution is to reach the children's behinds. This is the way the Lord operates. Have you read the Bible lately?

Sounds more like a doctrine from the Vatican than the Bible.

Have you read how on one occasion Jesus took a whip and scared the day lights of those who had turned God's Temple into a den of thieves? Am I citing this from the Vatican? How about when God imposed the death penalty on Ananias and Saphira? Is this also from the Vatican? Or when God sent prophet Jonah to the city of Nineverh telling in no uncertain terms that he was ready to destroy their city? Is this also from the Vatican?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Shane,

Can we rely on statistics coming from Mexico and the Netherlands?

Yes.

Can you provide the links to the source of those statistics?

[Dr. Shane]

you are telling me that declaring an open season for the killing of the unborn has a tendency to reduce the number of killings.