What I Learned About Abortion & the Adventist Church

[Dr. Shane]

Have you read how on one occasion Jesus took a whip and scared the day lights of those who had turned God's Temple into a den of thieves?

[Nic Samojluk]

Since the members of the Church are not in unanimous agreement that abortion is Biblically proscribed, it cannot be making hard and fast rules about it.

[Dr. Shane]

This eventually led to the creation of our “Guidelines on Abortion” which provide a list of circumstances under which abortion would be acceptable by the church. They include rape, incest, when the pregnant female is a minor, and even when the female’s mental health is being affected by the unexpected pregnancy.

[Gerr]

Re: the severely mentally retarded. If you live in CA, go and visit Patton State hospital in San Bernardino and see if you maintain your position.

Re: Pregnancy as a result of rape.

I hoppe you will never have a close family member who gets pregnant as a result of rape. If I am not held accountable for shooting an intruder, will God hold someone accountable for aborting an intruder?

[phkrause]

Re: the severely mentally retarded. If you live in CA, go and visit Patton State hospital in San Bernardino and see if you maintain your position.

Re: Pregnancy as a result of rape.

I hoppe you will never have a close family member who gets pregnant as a result of rape. If I am not held accountable for shooting an intruder, will God hold someone accountable for aborting an intruder?

Excellent post Gerry. God created us with the right to choose. And obviously that's why we're in the position that we are in now. God could've took care of Satan than and there. Each one of us will have to stand up in front of God's court and explain our choice's. For someone to claim that most women do this for there convience is doing God's work for him. Like I've mentioned in an earlier post, all of us are not at the same place in our walk with Jesus, but we will have to stand before the judge of the world some day, that's when we will find out if someone did something for convience sake or not.

pk

[John317]

Re: the severely mentally retarded. If you live in CA, go and visit Patton State hospital in San Bernardino and see if you maintain your position.

Gerry, it sounds like you worked there or at least visited.

I know Patton State Hospital very well, having worked there as a psych tech back in the 1980s, mostly in the women's sections. I live a short distance away. What you say about the severly mentally retarded is true.

Sometimes those retarded women-- though not the severely retarded ones-- have babies because some of them are allowed to have "dates" with the men patients. They could literally be found in the bushes at night with their "dates," and they would be punished for it, but it might be too late. The state is prohibited by law from making it impossible for them to get pregnant.

[Gerr]

I went through there as a medical student.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Thanks for clarifying! Perhaps I shoud rephrase my question as follows: "Won't many women have a diminished chance of repenting and asking forgiveness if the church is silent about the evil of abortion?"

Would you approve this amended version of my question?

Maybe, maybe not. Women who've had abortions know they've done wrong. Many of them never get over the guilt. I'd say it's much more important to tell them that God is willing to forgive them.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic

There are moral consequences to the infringement of God’s Holy Law which was designed to protect the lives of innocent human beings.

Then let God be the Judge. Not you.

[Nic Samojluk]

[Dr. Shane]

Your position is akin to arguing that society should favor certain type of rapes and certain types of sexual abuse of children, as long as we impose certain limits on more serious types of criminal offenses.

[Nic Samojluk]

I never mentioned anything about an open season.

[Nic Samojluk]

Was Christ trying to convert those vendors and money exchanges?

[Nic Samojluk]

We really are a church that values liberty of conscience. I am very proud to be a member of God's remnant church carrying His final message of love the world.

Yes, we are a church that believes in freedom including the freedom to poison and dismember the tiny bodies of innocent unborn babies. Hitler did believe the same, and he annihilated the lives of six million innocent Jews. Herod did believe likewise, and he killed hundreds of innocent children in Bethlehem. King Pharaoh, of Egypt, did believe likewise, and he ordered the drowning of all the male babies of Jewish race.

Our “Guidelines of Abortion” state that Jesus died to restore our freedom of choice. If he did, then it must follow that not only we are free to kill innocent babies, but we must also be free to rape, burglarize, take somebody else’ property, and free to sexually abuse little children. Can you follow the logic?

Like Adam and Eve we are free to good or to do evil; nevertheless, there are serious consequences if we choose to do evil. Adam made the wrong choice, and even today we are paying the price for his wrong choice.

Dr. Bailey of Loma Linda is saving the life of an average of five children who otherwise are doomed to die. I am proud of this. At the same time, our Washington Adventist Hospital and some others are killing babies by the hundreds. Can I be proud of this as well? Should I remain silent while the lives of innocent children are slaughtered by the followers of the one who said: “Let the children come to me”? How can they come if we snuff their lives before they have had the chance to take their first breath?

Six decades ago our country was the largest creditor in the world. Today the U.S. is the largest debtor. Almost four decades ago, our country decided to legalize the killing of innocent human beings, and God’s judgments are beginning to fall on this land of freedom. First the 9/11 attacks on U.S. soil, then Katrina, and now the oil leak in the gulf of Mexico. Do you think that all this had nothing to do with the direct violation of God’s Law which forbids the shedding of innocent blood?

Where are God’s people who should have been sounding the voice of alarm? I thought that we had the last message for a perishing world! No wonder the prophet described his people as dogs which would not bark. We have been silent as a church while the genocide proceeds at full speed! Instead of calling people to repentance, we have been siding with the enemy and agreeing with the world that we are free to choose to do evil!

[Nic Samojluk]

Re: the severely mentally retarded. If you live in CA, go and visit Patton State hospital in San Bernardino and see if you maintain your position.

[Gerr]

Are you saying abortion is absolutely wrong?

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Thanks for clarifying! Perhaps I shoud rephrase my question as follows: "Won't many women have a diminished chance of repenting and asking forgiveness if the church is silent about the evil of abortion?"

Would you approve this amended version of my question?

Maybe, maybe not. Women who've had abortions know they've done wrong. Many of them never get over the guilt. I'd say it's much more important to tell them that God is willing to forgive them.

Excellent post GLG.

pk

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

Re: the severely mentally retarded. If you live in CA, go and visit Patton State hospital in San Bernardino and see if you maintain your position.

You made a good point! This is precisely why Hitler decided to go on that road. The first ones he decided to exterminate were the handicapped, the war amputees, and those who could no longer produce for the war effort. Do you really think that we should follow his example?

Would you support that the handicapped be either poisoned or else dismembered the way we poison and dismember the unborn? Did you know that the mentally retarded are the ones less likely to commit suicide? It is those with a high IQ who are more likely to end their lives. Is the value of life measured by the degree of human intelligence?

Again I say, go to Patton State institution or something similar and then you tell me whether aborting them would have been a viable option rather than keeping them in an institution where they are now. No, I wouldn't have the heart to kill them once they are born.

FYI, actually I believe in some form of eugenics. Do you think that idiots, morons, and drug addicts should reproduce without restrictions?

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Gerry

If I am not held accountable for shooting an intruder, will God hold someone accountable for aborting an intruder?

Are you suggesting that the unborn babies are intruders? I would correct you by pointing out that the real intruder is not the baby, but rather the rapist! How does society treat the rapist? Do we kill him? If we don’t kill the criminal, what moral justification do we have to execute the innocent?

Of course!!! The rapist is not just the intruder. What he leaves behind is no less an intruder. A fetus/conceptus resulting from rape or incest is an intruder. Do you think this is an invited guest?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Thanks for clarifying! Perhaps I shoud rephrase my question as follows: "Won't many women have a diminished chance of repenting and asking forgiveness if the church is silent about the evil of abortion?"

Would you approve this amended version of my question?

Maybe, maybe not. Women who've had abortions know they've done wrong. Many of them never get over the guilt. I'd say it's much more important to tell them that God is willing to forgive them.

Was John the Baptist's emphasis on forgiveness or on the need for repentance? How about the message of Old Testatment prophets? Have you considered God's message to the Ninevites? Did Jonah tell the inhabitants of that wicked city that they were forgiven or rather that the destruction of the city was imminent? Do we really believe that God is planning to destroy this world--by fire?

[Nic Samojluk]

Mischaracterizing your opponent's position only does harm to your own credibility.

[Nic Samojluk]

Are you saying abortion is absolutely wrong?

Are unborn babies human? Are unborn babies guilty of a crime? Doen't the Bible condemn the shedding of the blood of innocent human beings? What I am saying is that if we shed the blood of an innocent human being we are violating what the Bible has proscribed.

Didn't Jesus tell us that we are to live by the Golden Rule. Put yourself in the place of the unborn baby. Would you have chosen to be poisoned or dismembered?

It has been documented that unborn babies do fight for their lives, but have no way to escape the killing tools of the abortionist who pulls an arm out if its socket, then a leg, and finally the head. Would you have chosen to be treated by the one who is closest to you this way?

[Dr. Shane]

The open season phrase was mine based on the fact that you seemed so far to defend the practice of abortion in the early weeks of pregnancy.

Nope. I have never in my life defended the practice of abortion in the early weeks of pregnancy - except in cases where the mother's life is in danger. Perhaps you should stop bearing false witness about me.

[Dr. Shane]

Of course!!! The rapist is not just the intruder. What he leaves behind is no less an intruder. A fetus/conceptus resulting from rape or incest is an intruder. Do you think this is an invited guest?

Very good point, doctor. That is one I had not considered before. May God bless you and keep you.

[Dr. Shane]

Doen't the Bible condemn the shedding of the blood of innocent human beings?

1 Samuel 15:2-3

"So go now and attack the Amalekites. Put them under the curse of destruction. Kill the men, women, children, and babies, cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys. Spare no one."

[Gerr]

Are unborn babies human? Are unborn babies guilty of a crime? Doen't the Bible condemn the shedding of the blood of innocent human beings? What I am saying is that if we shed the blood of an innocent human being we are violating what the Bible has proscribed.