What I Learned About Abortion & the Adventist Church

[Nic Samojluk]

No, I wouldn't have the heart to kill them once they are born.

[Neil D]

I don't like abortion. Never have...

But the practicalities of life never minded my likes and dislikes.

What to do with an unwanted pregnancy?.........

For some women, it's an embarrassment...especially when they are members of a strict church which holds the moral of "thou shalt not commit adultery"...

And if thier boyfriend, whom they trusted, betrayed that trust and leaves them, what are they to do? Betrayed, pregnant, they have a reminder of this betrayal....one that they will live with for nearly a year....

And most of the women getting an abortion are churched women....

And some churched women can not pull up stakes, move to another community have the child, give it up for adoption, and move back to the origional community to resume thier lives after a year...

And we havent even talked about non-churched women...

It's interesting that the economy does play a factor in women's having children or aborting them. Better times, economically speaking, allow women to raise children or give birth to term, if that is what they are willing to do....But it also allows for more sex...resulting in an increase in pregnancys....which also result in an increase in abortions...

And you can't have children without women...So, with all due respect, women's needs come first before the child's needs...even to the child's demise....

That is the practicality of life....and I don't like it any better than you do, nic...

[Nic Samojluk]

I have never in my life defended the practice of abortion in the early weeks of pregnancy - except in cases where the mother's life is in danger. Perhaps you should stop bearing false witness about me.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Of course!!! The rapist is not just the intruder. What he leaves behind is no less an intruder. A fetus/conceptus resulting from rape or incest is an intruder. Do you think this is an invited guest?

Very good point, doctor. That is one I had not considered before. May God bless you and keep you.

Suppose an intruder enters your house accompanied by an unarmed little boy. You confront him with a gun and he runs away leaving the unarmed little "intruder" behind. Would you be morally and legally justified in killing the little unarmed intruder? Would the judge acquit you of your crime?

Isn't this equivalent to how society reacts to rape? We kill the innocent unborn baby, but let the rapist live. Is this the type of justice you defend?

Would you now bless me as well as you blessed Gerry for defending the indefensible?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Doen't the Bible condemn the shedding of the blood of innocent human beings?

1 Samuel 15:2-3

"So go now and attack the Amalekites. Put them under the curse of destruction. Kill the men, women, children, and babies, cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys. Spare no one."

True. The Lord also destroyd the pre-flood generation, and he killed everybody in the city of Sodom, and he was ready to kill everybody in the city of Nineveh, and he killed Anananias and his wife.

Does it follow that we are free to kill innocent babies who are guilty of no crime? Are you comparing apples with apples. Can we play God with impunity? God killed Ananias for lying. Does it follow that we have the right to kill anybody caught lying?

King Saul received an order from God to kill the Amalekites. Have we received an order from the Lord to kill the unborn? Please respond!

[Nic Samojluk]

Would you please give a straight answer? Are ALL abortions wrong and therefore sinful? Is ALL killing wrong and therefore sin?

[Nic Samojluk]

So, with all due respect, women's needs come first before the child's needs...even to the child's demise....

True, the decision to have or not have an abortion is not an easy one. Nevertheless, I believe that the best option is doing what the Bible commands: “Choose life,” says the good book. The shame, the inconvenience, the lack of financial resources are temporary while the deprivation of life is permanent and irreversible.

The guilt of having made the wrong choice and having killed your own flesh and blood is something that will stay with the woman for the rest of her life. I do know women who feel this pain many years after this tragic event. Women have nightmares long after they have been freed from the pregnancy.

Recent studies have shown that women who have had an abortion are more likely to suffer from depression and more likely to resort to drug addiction. Is this what you would recommend to your daughter?

Do you think that the Bible is wrong in recommending that we choose life over death for the unborn and a better and more fulfilling life, free of guilt, for the woman? Can we be wiser that the Almighty who designed the Ten Commandments for our protection and our own good?

[GreatLakesGramma]

Women who've had abortions know they've done wrong. Many of them never get over the guilt. I'd say it's much more important to tell them that God is willing to forgive them.

Was John the Baptist's emphasis on forgiveness or on the need for repentance? How about the message of Old Testatment prophets? Have you considered God's message to the Ninevites? Did Jonah tell the inhabitants of that wicked city that they were forgiven or rather that the destruction of the city was imminent? Do we really believe that God is planning to destroy this world--by fire?

[Neil D]

The shame, the inconvenience, the lack of financial resources are temporary while the deprivation of life is permanent and irreversible.

[GreatLakesGramma]

...and I HAVE to trust that all people make the right decision for them...

Hoo Boy! With all the bad decisions people make these days, in so many different aspects of their lives, I would never make a statement like that!

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

...and I HAVE to trust that all people make the right decision for them...

Hoo Boy! With all the bad decisions people make these days, in so many different aspects of their lives, I would never make a statement like that!

And with all the good decisions that people make, much to your lack of awareness, you are affected by those good decisions as well...The problem is that bad decisions become sensational and appear more odious...

If you would take a survey and look at your surroundings, you would see that a lot more good decisions are made than bad ones....

By your post, evidence is given that you feel more affected by bad decisions than good ones...and yet, the truth of the matter is that 1] you don't seem to trust people around you to make those good decisions and 2] they make them and you are not affected by them or do not appreciate them....

Not passing judgement, but this is what it looks like...

[GreatLakesGramma]

You are reading an awful lot into a simple statement.

The bad decisions I had in mind aren't things that directly affect me at all. I know of many who have made and continue to make bad choices in relationships, people who've gotten into credit card debt way over their heads by spending without restraint, others who are digging their graves with their mouths, school dropouts, drug addicts, alcoholics, and on and on. Anyone who thinks that everyone who ever has an abortion has thought it through carefully and made the best decision for their situation is expecting a lot of people to be exercising more wisdom and restraint in that one area than they do in other areas of their lives. All I can say to that is "get real."

[Gerr]

Quote:

I did answer this before! Did you miss it? I did say that saving the life of the mother falls within my pro-life policy. Saving one life from death is better than loosing two. I also made it clear that what is wrong is killing innocent human beings. I did not say anything about the death penalty imposed on murderers.

That is what happens when you use too many words to answer a simple question! The answer becomes garbled and needs clarification! teehe

Quote:

And would you please define what is meant by "human"? Or "pers/\on"?

If an unborn baby is not human, then what is it? Inhuman? Inhuman is the way we treat our own unborn children. Person is a legal term. When slavery was legal, a judge determined that blacks were not members of the human race and did not deserve to be treated as persons with legal rights. He was legally right at the time. Was he also morally right.

Are you saying that when a spermatozoon combines with an ovum that voila! you have a human being, a person? If you are not comfortable with legal definitions, why not use a Biblical one then?

[scripturewisdom]

Quote:

Are you saying that when a spermatozoon combines with an ovum that voila! you have a human being, a person? .......

well, if it's a human spermatozoon and ovum............i would say, voila! absolutley. :smile: a miracle of our Creator.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

Re: the severely mentally retarded. If you live in CA, go and visit Patton State hospital in San Bernardino and see if you maintain your position.

You made a good point! This is precisely why Hitler decided to go on that road. The first ones he decided to exterminate were the handicapped, the war amputees, and those who could no longer produce for the war effort. Do you really think that we should follow his example?

Guilt by association. Stretching another person's point of view to discredit it. Good show!

Quote:

Would you support that the handicapped be either poisoned or else dismembered the way we poison and dismember the unborn? Did you know that the mentally retarded are the ones less likely to commit suicide? It is those with a high IQ who are more likely to end their lives. Is the value of life measured by the degree of human intelligence?

I thought we were discussing the unborn!

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Gerry

If I am not held accountable for shooting an intruder, will God hold someone accountable for aborting an intruder?

Are you suggesting that the unborn babies are intruders?

If it is the product of forced entry, then of course, it is a intruder! Or would you call it a welcome guest?

Quote:

I would correct you by pointing out that the real intruder is not the baby, but rather the rapist! How does society treat the rapist? Do we kill him? If we don’t kill the criminal, what moral justification do we have to execute the innocent?

In some societies they do kill rapists! Read the story of Dinah.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

what about all those other spermatozoon that died? Were they KILLED by the "super" spermatozoa that got through the ovum membrane?

[Dr. Shane]

I concluded that you favor allowing the killing of the unborn provided it is done before the 12 weeks of pregnancy.

The abortion allowed during the first 12 weeks needs to be restricted. Now, if I believed having an abortion during the first 12 weeks was morally acceptable, why would I want to place restrictions on it?

My position is the same as the Adventist church. Abortion should never be used as a means of birth control, convenience or for gender selection. NEVER!!! I believe it is a sin to do so. However nations that ban all of these types of abortions create a black market for abortions which results in more abortions being performed than nations where abortion is legal. So because I love life and want to see less babies aborted, I believe we should do what works and abandon what doesn't work.

[Dr. Shane]

Suppose an intruder enters your house accompanied by an unarmed little boy.

I am not obligated to raise other people's children. There are children that die in this world every day because of their parent's neglect and treatment of them. When a rapist leaves his sperm in a woman's reproductive organs, that woman has no obligation to care for that man's child. No woman should ever be made to feel as if she has the obligation to carry or care for a rapist's child. That is just all kinds of wrong.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Are you saying abortion is absolutely wrong?

Are unborn babies human? Are unborn babies guilty of a crime? Doen't the Bible condemn the shedding of the blood of innocent human beings? What I am saying is that if we shed the blood of an innocent human being we are violating what the Bible has proscribed.

Your kind of absolutist thinking frightens me. As I have asked in another post - when a spermatozoon joins with an ovum, do you then have a human being?

Again, does someone who forces his way into your house innocent if killed in the process?

Quote:

It has been documented that unborn babies do fight for their lives, but have no way to escape the killing tools of the abortionist who pulls an arm out if its socket, then a leg, and finally the head. Would you have chosen to be treated by the one who is closest to you this way?

Again you are taking abortion in its most extreme form to make a point. Suppose a woman uses RU-486 - the morning-after pill? Or suppose it is aborted at the 4-cell, 64-cell, or 256-cell stage BEFORE any recognizable body parts are formed?

[Dr. Shane]

True. The Lord also destroyd the pre-flood generation...

Does it follow that we are free to kill innocent babies who are guilty of no crime?

[Gerr]

FYI, actually I believe in some form of eugenics.

This is precisely how the killing of fifty millions started. You open the Pandora Box and once the genie is out there is no way to put it back inside the box again. We Adventist started with the so called therapeutic abortion and a few years later five of our hospitals moved to providing ELECTIVE abortions to their patients.

As I replied to you in another post, you are stretching eugenics as you did with abortion to its most extreme form. We breed the best plants and animals to get the healthiest and the best, why the objection when it comes to humans?

Originally Posted By: Gerry

Do you think that idiots, morons, and drug addicts should reproduce without restrictions?

No, I believe that this should not be allowed.

Is this not eugenics?

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

The shame, the inconvenience, the lack of financial resources are temporary while the deprivation of life is permanent and irreversible.

This is where you are wrong....

I know of a woman who gave birth to a child, and that child is alive somewhere in the world. He's about 50 years of age right now. The woman who gave birth to him still wonders, and is pained at

1] the rememberance of his conception,

2] who this person is/grew up to be

3] the fear that will come about if this person ever comes back to find her

4] the disgrace that comes with the person seeking to find his mother

5] the threat that this will come back to seek you

You say that it's temporary....I say it's life long...The only thing that will help in this instance is forgiveness.....it is not easily taken...

My wife was given up for adoption at birth. Her opinion on the issue is that anyone who thinks abortion is a better option than adoption needs to put something in the pie hole and get a clue about life. But that's just her talking.

[Gerr]

The rapist is not just the intruder. What he leaves behind is no less an intruder. A fetus/conceptus resulting from rape or incest is an intruder. Do you think this is an invited guest?

OK. Suppose an intruder breaks into your house and you discover that he is not alone; he

is accompanied by a little boy. You confront him with a gun and he runs away but leaves the little boy behind.

Both of them are theoretically intruders, according to your theory. Would you then be justified if you kill the little boy? Would you have a chance in court when confronted with the crime? Would the judge agree with you that both of them were intruders and consequently you had the right to kill an unarmed little boy?

Doesn’t this mimic how society responds to rape? We kill the innocent unborn baby but let the rapist live. Give me a reasonable answer!

As you told Shane in one post, apples and oranges!!! What a rapist leaves behind is NOT an innocent little boy!!! What he leaves behind are millions of spermatozoa, hellbent on doing one thing and one thing only - find an ovum to fertilize whether invited or not!!!

You are concerned about the life of the unborn, unwanted, & uninvited, how about the victim of rape? How about the 13 or 14 yo impregnated by a close kin? You want to ruin her life too? Or would you rather sacrifice the mother to save the unborn?

[Gerr]

Quote:

Are you saying that when a spermatozoon combines with an ovum that voila! you have a human being, a person? .......

well, if it's a human spermatozoon and ovum............i would say, voila! absolutley. :smile: a miracle of our Creator.

And when a dog, monkey, rat, cat sperm & ovum combine, voila, that's also a miracle of the Creator!

[teresaq]

My wife was given up for adoption at birth. Her opinion on the issue is that anyone who thinks abortion is a better option than adoption needs to put something in the pie hole and get a clue about life. But that's just her talking.

then there are those who are either born to their real parents or adopted, who think abortion would have been better...

course we also need to take into account those who are serial killers, pediphiles, etc., who also, more than likely think "life" is better, while their victims-and the victims families- are probably wishing abortion had not only been considered, but actually performed....

but the reality is that those aborted have no idea of what they are "missing",

Ecc 4:2 Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.

Ecc 4:3 Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.

and those not aborted can not be shrunk back down, put in the womb and aborted...