What I Learned About Abortion & the Adventist Church

[Dr. Shane]

then there are those who are either born to their real parents or adopted, who think abortion would have been better...

I have met many such people but never one that was mentally stable.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Neil

So, with all due respect, women's needs come first before the child's needs...even to the child's demise....

True, the decision to have or not have an abortion is not an easy one. Nevertheless, I believe that the best option is doing what the Bible commands: “Choose life,” says the good book. The shame, the inconvenience, the lack of financial resources are temporary while the deprivation of life is permanent and irreversible.

And when you say "life", what exactly do you mean? A mere existence? What kind of "life" does a severely retarded have in an instution unwanted and unloved by its mother, and perhaps treated mostly indifferently by the institution employees?

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The guilt of having made the wrong choice and having killed your own flesh and blood is something that will stay with the woman for the rest of her life. I do know women who feel this pain many years after this tragic event. Women have nightmares long after they have been freed from the pregnancy.

If the abortion was done for no other reason than for convenience, they should feel guilty!

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Do you think that the Bible is wrong in recommending that we choose life over death for the unborn and a better and more fulfilling life, free of guilt, for the woman? Can we be wiser that the Almighty who designed the Ten Commandments for our protection and our own good?

There is nothing wrong with presenting life for the unborn as an option. But I believe you are overstepping Biblical bounds when you present YOUR view of anti-abortion in all cases as THE Biblical view.

[doug yowell]

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Are you saying that when a spermatozoon combines with an ovum that voila! you have a human being, a person? .......

well, if it's a human spermatozoon and ovum............i would say, voila! absolutley. :smile: a miracle of our Creator.

Not all that complex,is it?

[GreatLakesGramma]

And when you say "life", what exactly do you mean? A mere existence? What kind of "life" does a severely retarded have in an instution unwanted and unloved by its mother, and perhaps treated mostly indifferently by the institution employees?

I've also heard of cases where the expectant parents were told their child would be retarded or defective, but refused to consider abortion, and when the child was born, it was completely free of the predicted defect. I can't help but wonder how many normal, healthy babies have been aborted because of such erroneous predictions.

[Dr. Shane]

Probably not too many.

[doug yowell]

[

There is nothing wrong with presenting life for the unborn as an option. But I believe you are overstepping Biblical bounds when you present YOUR view of anti-abortion in all cases as THE Biblical view.

Why do you believe that, Gerry? Every one of our SDA founders presented the same exact view as Nic believing that it was THE BIBLICAL VIEW. In addition, every historic prominent Christian expositor has presented the same view.What is THE biblical view that those who advocate this position are overstepping? Isn't this the same argument that is used against Adventists regarding Sabbath, once saved, always saved, IJ, Creation, homosexuality, ect...ect...? What biblical evidence do you offer from the Scriptures, history, or science that would validate your opposition to this view of the value of the unborn? What Scriptures indicate that the unborn is either not fully human, of a lesser human value, are simply in a different human category that has no inherent right to live?

[doug yowell]

Probably not too many.

How many should it take?

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Probably not too many.

How many should it take?

That's like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It is a question no one can answer and is pointless to try. We can bring up hypothetical questions all the time but real people have to live in the real world. When parents are told their child will be born retarded, deformed or with some terrible illness, the parents have to act on that information and not drive themselves crazy with hypotheticals. Hypothetically I could get killed driving to church but that isn't going to stop me from driving to church.

[Dr. Shane]

Every one of our SDA founders presented the same exact view as Nic believing that it was THE BIBLICAL VIEW.

It is really hard to believe that our founders believed in the union of church and state to the point that Nic does.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Every one of our SDA founders presented the same exact view as Nic believing that it was THE BIBLICAL VIEW.

It is really hard to believe that our founders believed in the union of church and state to the point that Nic does.

I don't think you'll find much difference if you compare the two.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

then there are those who are either born to their real parents or adopted, who think abortion would have been better...

I have met many such people but never one that was mentally stable.

lol, well i dont know if you have or not, but you certainly wouldnt be implying that the serial killers, pediphiles, pharisees, etc., who wish not to have been aborted are "stable", would you?

not only that, in Gods eyes who could claim to be "stable"?

but still and all, inspiration says that those who have not seen the evil of this world are the most blessed of all...

[doug yowell]

I agree the ? is one no one can (or dares) answer. But just as irrelevant is the comment on there being "not many". Those "not many" live in the real world too and their decision reveals that those medical hypothesis were wrong!! I wonder just how many other of those surefire prognosis' were in fact wrong, resulting in the unnecessary deaths of otherwise healthy human beings? Does an even small % of those justify the means? That's also the real world but too late now. Or in other words, the retarded, deformed, terribly ill diagnosis was proven to be merely a hypothetical, just like your driving to church illustration.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

[

There is nothing wrong with presenting life for the unborn as an option. But I believe you are overstepping Biblical bounds when you present YOUR view of anti-abortion in all cases as THE Biblical view.

Why do you believe that, Gerry? Every one of our SDA founders presented the same exact view as Nic believing that it was THE BIBLICAL VIEW.

could you produce those "Every one of our SDA founders" who "presented the same exact view as Nic believing that it was THE BIBLICAL VIEW"?

otherwise it is an untrue statement.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Shane

doug: Every one of our SDA founders presented the same exact view as Nic believing that it was THE BIBLICAL VIEW.

shane: It is really hard to believe that our founders believed in the union of church and state to the point that Nic does.

I don't think you'll find much difference if you compare the two.

i would also like to see where any of our sda pioneers believed in any kind of union of church and state....?

[Gordon1]

The first lesson I learned is that the merciful Lord we have is willing to forgive all sins, including the sin of abortion, provided we repent...

Elective abortions were not designed to save the life of a pregnant woman, but rather to protect their lifestyle.

Hi Nic,

As you probably know, repentance is a gift from God and it is 'the goodness of God that leadeth thee to repentance.' (Romans 2:4) If you wish to help women who have submitted to abortion, you'll need to preach God's goodness, which is rarely heard from today's SDA pulpit.

Having read several pages of your concerns, you seem to be heavily focused on Adventism's complict role in the abortion business. Many will agree it's correct to call for reform, but your approach seems unbalanced and even bitter towards any who question your methods - bitterness cannot be taken to heaven.

If you wish to reduce the abortion numbers, you'll need to address the passions & appetites of men and women. Sperm & egg were designed to beget life. To do God's work, you'll need to go to the source of the problem and preach a changed heart for men and women. (i.e. - how to exercise Godly restraint or premeditated prevention)

Consider for a moment - how many woman would willingly have intercourse if they knew it would mean an unwanted pregnancy? If men and women would reason carefully from cause to effect, your crusade would be over. Such reasoning requires the mind of Christ.

It's easy to stone sinners after the fact, but how much infintely better to have men and women walking responsibly with Christ as their Guide, 'clothed in their right minds.' (Mark 5:15)

Gordon

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

[

There is nothing wrong with presenting life for the unborn as an option. But I believe you are overstepping Biblical bounds when you present YOUR view of anti-abortion in all cases as THE Biblical view.

Why do you believe that, Gerry? Every one of our SDA founders presented the same exact view as Nic believing that it was THE BIBLICAL VIEW.

1. Have you read all my post in this thread? Maybe you can state what you understand to be my position to see if it's correct?

2. I am not aware that abortion was even an issue with our pioneers. I found no reference at all in the writings of EGW. Could you provide some references? And BTW, many of our early pioneers did not believe in the Trinity, should we go back to their lead?

[Gerr]

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In addition, every historic prominent Christian expositor has presented the same view.What is THE biblical view that those who advocate this position are overstepping? Isn't this the same argument that is used Adventists regarding Sabbath, once saved, always saved, IJ, Creation, homosexuality, ect...ect...?

Apples and oranges.

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What biblical evidence do you offer from the Scriptures, history, or science that would validate your opposition to this view of the value of the unborn?

Could you please provide a reference where I have undervalued the unborn? I am against Nic's absolutist position that all abortions are wrong. Examine God's own 10 commandments and you will see there are many exceptions!

[Gerr]

Quote:

What Scriptures indicate that the unborn is either not fully human, of a lesser human value, are simply in a different human category that has no inherent right to live?

I don't know if you have followed the whole thread; it seems to me that you have not read all my posts. I have stated that in cases of rape, incest especially if the victim is very young, mother's life in danger, or if there is good evidence of mental retardation, that abortion should be an option for the victim.

1. Scriptural basis for the right of a woman to terminate a pregnancy that is the result of rape? Ex 22:2 “If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; NIV. Jn 10:10 "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy..." NIV

Pregnancy as the result of rape is an intruder, a thief, an unwelcome guest. Therefore a woman has the right to defend herself. Anyone who invades another's domain is taking a risk of losing his/her right to live.

2. Mother's life in danger? Who/what is more valuable to you, an egg or a hen?

3. Severely retarded. If the best info that medical science could provide tells you that a pregnancy will produce a severely retarded child, with no prospect of any meaningful life and would be nothing but a burden to the parents or society (institutionalized, isn't that what happens to most of them?) I would consider abortion as an option for the woman.

4. As for what is a human/person - perhaps that could be the subject of discussion in another thread.

[Nic Samojluk]

If someone had come to me with a message like Jonah's to Ninevah, it would have only been the last nail in the coffin of my hope. I guarantee it would not have brought me to the Lord.

[Nic Samojluk]

You say that it's temporary....I say it's life long

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil

You say that it's temporary....I say it's life long

OK. The memory of the child given up for adoption is not temporary but rather life long. What we need to do is contrast this memory with the guilt of having killed one’s own child and deprived him/her of life, which is the greatest gift God grants human beings.

[GreatLakesGramma]

No, we don't have to contrast these two memories, as each path is an absolute. IOWs, when one comes to the path of choice, the resulting decision is one that she lives with. Granted, she will weigh it out, but she will make the choice if she feels the need. She makes this sacred decision herself. All others support her, including the husband.

That only applies to married couples. I suspect that most women who have abortions are not married. And many don't even want abortion, but are pressured by boyfriends who don't want the responsibility of a child, or forced by parents, or simply feel they have no other options. Those are also the ones who are probably going to deal with the greatest guilt and depression. I'd guess they're also the ones who are most likely to commit suicide afterward.

My sister had an abortion, many years ago, because she was ashamed to have anyone know she was pregnant, or even the fact that she had been raped. She was young, and not married. To this day, I don't think she knows that we know. So I also don't know how she dealt with the trauma back then, or deals with the memories now. Maybe the family she has now has helped her forget.

[Nic Samojluk]

That is what happens when you use too many words to answer a simple question! The answer becomes garbled and needs clarification!

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Are you saying that when a spermatozoon combines with an ovum that voila! you have a human being, a person? .......

well, if it's a human spermatozoon and ovum............i would say, voila! absolutley. :smile: a miracle of our Creator.

Great answer!

[Nic Samojluk]

I thought we were discussing the unborn!

In some societies they do kill rapists! Read the story of Dinah.

I thought we were discussing the issue of abortion in the U.S. which legalized abortion with the approval of the Adventist Church that lead the way and approved ELECTIVE abortions two years before 1973.