What I Learned About Abortion & the Adventist Church

[Gerr]

Quote:

You have described the effects of sin on the human genetic makeup very well. It, without any conscious decision on our part, destroys us both physically and spiritually.But Jesus spoke directly to the human participation in that process:"It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him thru whom they do come!"And what happens to both the unborn and the newborn at the second coming is irrelevent to how we are required to treat them today. "What is that to you? Feed my sheep." Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these..."

Ah, but it is relevant!!! Neither we, individually or collectively, have unlimited resources. Do we have the resources to give everyone that needs a bypass or a stent? Keep every person in a nursing alive for as long as possible no matter their condition? Try to save every premie no matter what? Do we have the love and patience for every severely handicapped person on this planet?

[Nic Samojluk]

Here are some examples of the early Adventist pioneers attitude towards the practice of abortion:

The attitude Towards Abortion Exhibited by the SDA Pioneers [1]

James White Quoting a non-Adventist Author

Quote:

Few are aware of the fearful extent to which this nefarious business, this worse than devilish practice, is carried on in all classes of society! Many a woman determines that she will not become a mother, and subjects herself to the vilest treatment, committing the basest crime to carry out her purpose. And many a man, who has as many children as he can support, instead of restraining his passions, aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten. The sin lies at the door of both parents in equal measure; for the father, although he may not always aid in the murder, is always accessory to it, in that he induces, and sometimes even forces upon the mother the condition which he knows will lead to the commission of the crime. [2]

John Harvey Kellogg

Quote:

The idea held by many that the destruction of foetal [sic] life is not a crime until after “quickening” has occurred is a gross and mischievous error. No change occurs in the developing human being at this period. The so-called period of “quickening” is simply the period at which the movements of the little one become sufficiently active and vigorous to attract the attention of the mother. Long before this, slight movements have been taking place, and from the very moment of conception, those processes have been in operation which result in the production of a fully developed human being from a mere jelly drop, a minute cell. As soon as this development begins, a new human being has come into existence--in embryo, it is true, but possessed of its own individuality, with its own future, its possibilities of joy, grief, success, failure, fame, and ignominy.

From this moment, it acquires the right to life, a right so sacred that in every land to violate it is to incur the penalty of death. How many murderers and murderesses have gone unpunished! None but God knows the full extent of this most heinous crime; but the Searcher of all hearts knows and remembers every one who has thus transgressed; and in the day of final reckoning, what will the verdict be? Murder? MURDER [sic], child murder, the slaughter of the innocents more cruel than Herod, more cold-blooded than the midnight assassin, more criminal than the man who slays his enemy--the most unnatural, the most inhuman, the most revolting of all crimes against human life. [3]

[Nic Samojluk]

Here is some more:

J.N. Andrews

Quote:

One of the most shocking, and yet one of the most prevalent sins of this generation, is the murder of unborn infants. Let those who think this a small sin, read Ps. 139:16. They will see that even the unborn child is written in God’s book. And they may be well assured that God will not pass unnoticed the murder of such children. [4]

Ellen G. White

Quote:

If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering [8] his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them. [9]

Source: http://sdaforum.com/page114.html

If neglecting the health of the mother by the husband was almost equivalent to the murder of the unborn, how do you think Ellen White would have labeled the actual poisoning or dismembering of the unborn child?

[Gerr]

Well, you've taken a stand, and I have taken a stand. So we're both standing, but we happen to be not on the same spot. Then what?

[Dr. Shane]

But as I have already stated, severely retarded people or drug addicts or anyone, I might add, who would/could bring into the world children who would be a burden to society, should not have the right to reproduce and impose that burden on society.

I agree that there should be certain people that are sterilized. There should be a legal process where a doctor or relative brings forth the motion and a process is followed just like a person being committed to an institution.

However I do not believe that we should abort children just because we know they are going to be born with Downs Syndrome or some kind of hereditary disease.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Could you produce those "Every one of our SDA founders" who "presented the same exact view as Nic believing that it was THE BIBLICAL VIEW"? Otherwise it is an untrue statement.

I just did! Read my two previous postings!

[Gerr]

Sorry, Nic, but none of your references dealt with abortion vis-a-vis rape, incest, or where the mother's life is at stake.

I have already stated early on that abortion on demand for convenience alone is anathema to me.

[Dr. Shane]

Restrain passions? Coitus interruptus prevents 80% of pregnancies as typically practiced. Maybe a man not being willing to do that is what she meant by not being able to restrain passion. The method is as old as the Bible.

[Nic Samojluk]

If you wish to help women who have submitted to abortion, you'll need to preach God's goodness, which is rarely heard from today's SDA pulpit.

[doug yowell]

Well, you've taken a stand, and I have taken a stand. So we're both standing, but we happen to be not on the same spot. Then what?

Play it safe and move over next to Nic?

[Dr. Shane]

I am not allowed nor invited to preach from the pulpit. I am not a SDA minister. I am a Realtor, and selling real estate is my business. Religion is my hobby and my passion.

Wow! I am not an SDA minister either. Well, I am not an ordained pastor. I guess I could be considered a minister since I am involved with lay ministries. I am invited to preach pretty much as often as I am willing to volunteer. I belong to a large congregation which has two pastors so it is rare that a layman is invited to preach there. However we have a couple dozen small churches within a 30 mile radius that are always needing new speakers and love to have laymen come in. And of course, we have prayer meetings, vespers and Adventist Youth services that are always in need of lay preachers. If someone is not allowed to preach muchless not invited, I would think they either need to consider changing denominations or do some real soul searching.

[Dr. Shane]

The Adventist Church has compromised on the issue of abortion, which is a violation of the Sixth Commandment.

Absolutely not! There has been no compromise whatsoever. Just because the Adventist church has taken a position that is not universally accepted by all members doesn't mean it has compromised. After much study of Scripture, prayer and thoughtful discussion we have taken a position which really is different than any other denomination. We are God's peculiar people. We are the remnant of the woman's seed. It isn't surprising that our position should better reflect God's will for man than the Catholic or Billy Graham position.

[doug yowell]

[My apologies if I slapped anyone in the face. None such was intended. Black and white thinkers by definition as I understand it, tend to have very little room for grey areas.

I have no problem with people who disagree with my position, but I do have a grave problem with people who impose their views on others who may disagree or see it as a grey area where a person's conscience should be allowed to guide them.

]

I understand your take on that, Gerry,but as a Seventh-day Adventist (my assumption....I know,never assume!)do you allow that a (Christian) person's conscience should be free to guide them in other moral areas? Profanity, suggestive clothing, alcohol consumption, smoking,drugs, homosexual practice,ect...? And don't you agree that the b/w view has a right to be considered if the conscience is to be fully informed? Isn't there a point where the conscience cannot be the determinate of truth because it is so easily violated?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

The Adventist Church has compromised on the issue of abortion, which is a violation of the Sixth Commandment.

Absolutely not! There has been no compromise whatsoever. Just because the Adventist church has taken a position that is not universally accepted by all members doesn't mean it has compromised. After much study of Scripture, prayer and thoughtful discussion we have taken a position which really is different than any other denomination. We are God's peculiar people. We are the remnant of the woman's seed. It isn't surprising that our position should better reflect God's will for man than the Catholic or Billy Graham position.

"The temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord are these."

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

I am not allowed nor invited to preach from the pulpit. I am not a SDA minister. I am a Realtor, and selling real estate is my business. Religion is my hobby and my passion.

Wow! I am not an SDA minister either. Well, I am not an ordained pastor. I guess I could be considered a minister since I am involved with lay ministries. I am invited to preach pretty much as often as I am willing to volunteer. I belong to a large congregation which has two pastors so it is rare that a layman is invited to preach there. However we have a couple dozen small churches within a 30 mile radius that are always needing new speakers and love to have laymen come in. And of course, we have prayer meetings, vespers and Adventist Youth services that are always in need of lay preachers. If someone is not allowed to preach muchless not invited, I would think they either need to consider changing denominations or do some real soul searching.

Or move out of Loma Linda!!

[Nic Samojluk]

Having read several pages of your concerns, you seem to be heavily focused on Adventism's complicit role in the abortion business.

[Nic Samojluk]

2. I am not aware that abortion was even an issue with our pioneers. I found no reference at all in the writings of EGW. Could you provide some references? And BTW, many of our early pioneers did not believe in the Trinity, should we go back to their lead?

Here is some evidenced that our early Adventist pioneers did exhibit a decided concern for the issue of abortion. Abortion was the topic of my investigation and dissertation. Have you read it? It is online at http://letsfocusonlife.com

The attitude Towards Abortion Exhibited by the SDA Pioneers

James White Quoting a non-Adventist Author

Quote:

Few are aware of the fearful extent to which this nefarious business, this worse than devilish practice, is carried on in all classes of society! Many a woman determines that she will not become a mother, and subjects herself to the vilest treatment, committing the basest crime to carry out her purpose. And many a man, who has as many children as he can support, instead of restraining his passions, aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten. The sin lies at the door of both parents in equal measure; for the father, although he may not always aid in the murder, is always accessory to it, in that he induces, and sometimes even forces upon the mother the condition which he knows will lead to the commission of the crime. [2]

John Harvey Kellogg

Quote:

The idea held by many that the destruction of foetal [sic] life is not a crime until after “quickening” has occurred is a gross and mischievous error. No change occurs in the developing human being at this period. The so-called period of “quickening” is simply the period at which the movements of the little one become sufficiently active and vigorous to attract the attention of the mother. Long before this, slight movements have been taking place, and from the very moment of conception, those processes have been in operation which result in the production of a fully developed human being from a mere jelly drop, a minute cell. As soon as this development begins, a new human being has come into existence--in embryo, it is true, but possessed of its own individuality, with its own future, its possibilities of joy, grief, success, failure, fame, and ignominy.

From this moment, it acquires the right to life, a right so sacred that in every land to violate it is to incur the penalty of death. How many murderers and murderesses have gone unpunished! None but God knows the full extent of this most heinous crime; but the Searcher of all hearts knows and remembers every one who has thus transgressed; and in the day of final reckoning, what will the verdict be? Murder? MURDER [sic], child murder, the slaughter of the innocents more cruel than Herod, more cold-blooded than the midnight assassin, more criminal than the man who slays his enemy--the most unnatural, the most inhuman, the most revolting of all crimes against human life. [3]

J.N. Andrews

Quote:

One of the most shocking, and yet one of the most prevalent sins of this generation, is the murder of unborn infants. Let those who think this a small sin, read Ps. 139:16. They will see that even the unborn child is written in God’s book. And they may be well assured that God will not pass unnoticed the murder of such children. [4]

Ellen G. White

Quote:

If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering [8] his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them. [9]

Source: http://sdaforum.com/page114.html

If neglecting the health of the mother by the husband was almost equivalent to the murder of the unborn, how do you think Ellen White would have labeled the actual poisoning or dismembering of the unborn child?

[Nic Samojluk]

I have stated that in cases of rape, incest especially if the victim is very young, mother's life in danger, or if there is good evidence of mental retardation, that abortion should be an option for the victim.

[Nic Samojluk]

What you are doing is stirring up guilt....Is that the work of a Christian or a follower of Satan?

[Nic Samojluk]

And many don't even want abortion, but are pressured by boyfriends who don't want the responsibility of a child, or forced by parents

Very true. Yesterday I read a report saying that in the majority of the cases women are pressured to have an abortion by others: parents, boyfriend, friends, and employers. There have been many cases where when a girl decides to keep her baby, the boyfriend decides to kill the girl to avoid having to pay child alimony.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Do you also agree with the Adventist policy of allowing each Adventist hospital to create their own guidelines?

Absolutely. Although I am sure I disagree with the policies of many Adventist hospitals, we don't need some central command dictating hospital policies from a distance. We are not Catholics - not Vatican is needed.

One of our Adventist hospitals is killing innocent unborn babies by the hundreds. It was described by one GC representative as an “abortion mill” and you see no problem with this? A few years ago there was a demonstration in front of said institution with people carrying signs which read: “Remember the Sixth Commandment.” What kind of testimony are we giving to the rest of the world?

The Remnant is described in the Bible as one keeping God’s Commandments. Our church is killing innocent unborn babies and violating the right to life of hundreds of innocent human beings and you are unconcerned? I am appalled at your apathy towards the victims of abortion. I am beginning to feel ashamed of being a member of a church which has come this low as far as morality is concerned. I think that I may have to stop sending my sacred tithe and sacred offerings to a church that has apostatized on this issue.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Fifty percent of that baby belongs genetically to the pregnant woman. This alone should be reason enough not to kill the baby.

It is stolen DNA. The rapist had no right to use the woman's DNA to make a baby. The woman has absolute right to terminate that rapist's baby. No doubt.

Sorry to disagree! According to the Bible and the Apostles teaching in the Didache abortion is murder. You do not impose the death penalty for stealing, especially when the stealing was not done by the victim. You sense of justice had been damaged.

Would society impose the death penalty for DNA stolen from a DNA bank, especially if the victim has not done the stealing?

[Nic Samojluk]

Because when absolutist thinkers get into positions of power, they become the David Koreshes, Jimmy Jones, Stalins or Hitlers of the world!!! Or the inquisitors that burn people!!! My conscience is clear on my abortion position, so that's the least of my concerns come judgment day.

Positions of power? You certainly can’t be talking about me! I am absolutely powerless as far as influence in the Adventist Church is concerned.

When I joined the Adventist Church, Adventists had a high regard for God’s Law. Now I see only apathy, disdain, and disregard for its sacred precepts.

Some of our hospitals have compromised on the issue of abortion for the sake of profit and we seem to be unconcerned.

Some of our own physicians have become millionaires by killing unborn babies and we look the other way because they are donating some of this blood money to our institutions.

[Nic Samojluk]

We have reason to fear absolutist thinkers that believe in a union of church and state.

In a previous posting someone insinuated that I do believe in a union between churh and state. Can someone provide any evidence to support such a claim? What did I say to suggest this?

[Gerr]

Quote:

However I do not believe that we should abort children just because we know they are going to be born with Downs Syndrome or some kind of hereditary disease.

I would not abort a Down's Syndrome either. All the ones I have encountered are capable of love and a lot more lovable than a lot of high IQ people that I know. I also had patients who were doing some simple jobs.

Society, with the input of physicians, scientists, theologians, ethicists, educators, should/could decide what genetic defects should/could not be allowed to continue.