Second Resurrection = Second Death?

[Nicodema]

Post deleted by Gregory Matthews

[i will explain my actions in private correspendence between myself, Robert & Nico--GM]

[Nicodema]

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I think I'm beginning to see what you're concerned about. But then, it's so late, I'm having trouble seeing anything. I'll try and respond (coherently) tomorrow.

Shalom

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Thanks Ed. I would appreciate an INTELLIGENT response from someone who doesn't have a prefabricated agenda of attempting to paint me as Satan Incarnate and turn me into the Enemy just because I don't lay down, roll over, and swallow traditional eschatology on demand -- especially eschatology that for me does NOT square with what I know to be the character of a God of Love.

(Please ignore my comments to Robert as they are not germane to the rest of this discussion. He full well knows what I'm referring to and he full well knows from our history that I did not need him here on this thread in the first place since he completely wrecked my earlier attempt to have a SANE and INTELLIGENT and PRODUCTIVE discussion about this matter.)

I look forward to hearing from you whenever you have the time. No rush, don't stress yourself, I know you've many threads going at once here!

nico

[Robert]

Post deleted by Gregory Matthews

[i will explain my actions in a message to Nico & Robert--GM.]

[there buster]

Robert doesn't mean to be offensive. He just can't distinguish between his own thoughts and God's. He's frustrated with you, so he thinks God must be, too. It's a common malady, but I'm beginning to see some hope.

Take comfort in the fact that it was the tax collectors and the harlots (not that you are either) who came to Christ, and the self-professed teachers of the law had a very hard time.

Like the downtrodden, you and I believe we need help. Robert thinks he is helping.

[Robert]

Post deleted by Gregory Matthews

[i will explain my action an a private message to Nico & Robert--GM.]

[there buster]

Most people have difficulty seeing their own error.

[Nicodema]

Post deleted by Gregory Matthews

[i will explain my actions in a private message to Nico & Robert--GM.]

[DaveM1936]

I appreciate that you took time to answer my posts. Like Ed, I am finally understanding what you want to know. Also, it is late for me too. I would like to make one comment. There are some people in our church who beleive in the assumptions you listed. But SDA's are like all churches. There are various views on many important points.

Personally, I do not share in any of the ones you are disagreeing with. There are various views, for instance, of what happened at the cross. One side believes in a forsensic view. Another in the "larger view".

I will try to answer your questions along with Ed. Are you aware that you have the ability to ask very tough questions.

I am not used to thinking that much.

Your friend,

Dave M

[DaveM1936]

Why do you even bother with Robert?

Your Friend,

Dave M

[there buster]

It appears to me that you keep concerning yourself with performance. "The zillion things were suppposed to do... and not do." No one will be excluded from the kingdom because of their performance, nor will they be included because of performance. No one will ever do all zillion things right or avoid all zillion things that need to be avoided.

I'll stop there to keep it simple. You can correct where I've missed the mark, and/or respond that we've communicated--to whatever degree.

[Nicodema]

Here are some comments I'd made on another thread which touched on this portion of the eschatology. Hopefully they will help Dave, Ed, and others NEW to this discussion (who are MOST welcome to join us) understand what issues are bugging me. (The quotes were from someone else in the thread.)

Do you realize that the alternative is to portray God as leaving the sick and the infirm at the mercy of a diseased will that is, itself, no longer free? The Bible teaches that whosoever committeth sin is the SLAVE of sin. The slave is not free. The sinner does not possess free will. Thus teaching eternal destruction makes God into an even worse monster: one Who had the capacity to heal and deliver but chose not to in that instance, and then skips away merrily blaming that upon the diseased and infirm condition of the sufferer.

• Contention: [:"blue"] Ellen White stated that to the sinner heaven would be a living hell[/]

That's right: a real lake of fire. That's assuming they remain sinners. However, God Himself states that EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess. Ellen White herself wrote that even Satan would kneel and confess the justice of his sentence in the end. What more heart-wrenching and truthful utterance could anyone demand than that the most hardened "criminal" of all confess, of his own choice, that it is just and right to put him out of everyone's misery, that,

[:"purple"]

"Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."[/]

-- Revelation 15:3-4, The Song of Moses the Servant of God, and the Song of the Lamb

• Contention: [:"blue"] God is omniscient, He knew that before He created Lucifer that Lucifer would sin. He knew Lucifer would invent sin. ... that much suffering has taken place on this planet... Since Lucifer started all this, and since (according to you) all [might] come back full circle and be saved, then why would a loving God allow this terrible experience? It just doesn’t make sense. [/]

It makes perfect sense. God didn't do this to us. We did it to ourselves. He allowed it because He had a plan to deal with it, and redemptive purposes for it.

I won't attempt to get into sticky areas of arguing whether God built it into us to go this route or not, or whether going the route of unquestioning obedience instead would have been preferable, but in the end it won't matter. Death will be swallowed up in victory, and God shall wipe away all tears from our eyes. The former things will be passed away. What was the point? We have come full circle now: free will. The point is to comprehend the nature of free will -- what it is, what it is not -- and how to use it.

• Contention: [:"blue"] God doesn’t stifle our free-will – even if the choice is terrible – even if one created the principle of self as did Lucifer… God places that much importance on our free-will decisions ...[/]

This is why I believe "for the hardness of our hearts" He has suffered us to entertain this last little segment of clinging to the twisted "hope" of some horrorific and irreversible vengeance upon our enemies -- The Sinners, whomever we each deem them to be, we'll see them get theirs! and then we'll never have to deal with them again, ha ha! -- precisely to teach us these things. And the fact remains, we WILL see justice done. We WILL see the consuming fire that is Our God burn out all traces of the Virus from each and every sentient program at the Great Reboot. And for some this will be painful. But if the character of Christ is perfectly reproduced in His people, our only thoughts and pleas will be of mercy for them, that they experience the fantastic miracle it is to be touched by God's love, transformed by His forgiveness, grace and power.

• Contention: [:"blue"] God had to allow sin to progress for 2 reasons:

  (1) He doesn’t interfere with human free will….He doesn’t kill just because we might not agree with Him….If He did He should have created robots.

  (2) At its heart sin is a deceiver – it is a liar.[/]

And there is no reason why these particular lessons need be scrapped in order to envision an alternate scenario to that of eternal destruction. Though I would point out to you that without an alternate scenario, your #1 above makes little sense.

The ability to envision an alternate scenario -- moreover, to enter into the experience of "singing the Song of Moses and of the Lamb" to actively participate in making it so -- this is something I believe will form part of the transformative experience of those living in the last days. I believe it has to do with having the character of Christ fully reproduced in His people. I believe it is inevitable all who "follow the Lamb whithersoever He goest" will grasp it in time. He will see to that. And in case you are wondering, NO I do not believe having grasped it gives me any particular advantage -- at this present time -- in terms of character. I still have just as much trouble loving my enemies as the next guy, and will freely admit it. But it does provide me with more reason and more impetus to be aware of those issues.

Nico

[Nicodema]

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It appears to me that you keep concerning yourself with performance. "The zillion things were suppposed to do... and not do." No one will be excluded from the kingdom because of their performance, nor will they be included because of performance. No one will ever do all zillion things right or avoid all zillion things that need to be avoided.

I'll stop there to keep it simple. You can correct where I've missed the mark, and/or respond that we've communicated--to whatever degree.

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Hi Ed,

I appreciate this note, and I don't want to get sidetracked onto something that is (to me) a side issue. But Biblical teaching in fact makes it very clear that Jesus judges who "knows Him" from who does not precisely on the basis of whether their actions have demonstrated it or not -- the parable of the sheep and goats, in Matt 25, illustrates this. Anyway, I'm not looking to argue this point as I agree with you. But the problem is, traditional SDA eschatology does not. It states that by choosing to do acts that are sinful according to the law, the individual has "by proxy" chosen a place in the lake of fire and has only themselves to blame because they -- oh pick something -- liked coffee and wine too much to give them up, or preferred a relationship that was technically adulterous to throwing away a person who brought joy to their lives, or whatever.

Anyway, that is something of a side issue -- or maybe not? To me it seems a side issue because frankly to me it seems more arbitrary to destroy someone for eternity because they could not, in this confusing world, make sense of Christ being God with the odds stacked against them (sorry but 90% of what passes for Christianity in the USA is absolute despicable self-righteous kack -- the smug self-righteous social darwinists and radical warmongering wingnutters, etc. -- and if I did not know better, I would not be a believer either!!!) It makes more sense to me to envision a God who says, "Hmmm, total atheist, hostile to church religion, yet loves his neighbor, helps the poor -- yeah, he's Kingdom material; he'll easily get over the shock of My existence," with a smile.

I said I agree with you and I meant it, just in case any of my statements sound contradictory in that regard.

[Gregory Matthews]

Nico:

I have a PM that I would like to send you. But, your ability to recieve PMs has closed down, evidently due to the fact that you have no manny that you have saved. So, no one can send you any more.

Gregory Matthews

[DaveM1936]

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But the problem is, traditional SDA eschatology does not. It states that by choosing to do acts that are sinful according to the law, the individual has "by proxy" chosen a place in the lake of fire and has only themselves to blame because they -- oh pick something -- liked coffee and wine too much to give them up, or preferred a relationship that was technically adulterous to throwing away a person who brought joy to their lives, or whatever.

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May I ask where you are getting this "traditional esctology"? There are wide differnces among

sda's on this topic. Actually, this is a rather new idea in our church.

The whole issue is whether they want a relationship with God. Anyone who desires one can have one. God is life. No one can live without being connected to God. It's not that the person has chosen the lake of fire. But he thinks that the life in his body is his own, that he can live without God. This is impossible.

God does give everyone free will. If He does not interfer, all of us would use that free will to removed God from His throne. The Holy Spirit is in the business of teaching us how to use that free will in a healthy, beneficial way. Like I said before, God has a vast universe. He does not want people killing, misusing, destroying like humans now do. Perhaps you need a new view of what sin really is. Sin is doing harm, damage, destruction to anyone, any animal, anything in the enviromment.

Because God gave us free will, He will not remake us unless we give Him permission to do so. For all of us, this is where the battle lies. If a person refuses this divine help, what more can a God of infinite love and freedom do?

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sorry but 90% of what passes for Christianity in the USA is absolute despicable self-righteous kack -- the smug self-righteous social darwinists and radical warmongering wingnutters, etc. -- and if I did not know better, I would not be a believer either!!!)

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This sounds a bit like a bigot. There are things in my life that I have down which I am now ashamed of. If I told religious people, their bigotry would immediately arise.

By the way, do you know the difference between being religous, and being spiritual?

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It makes more sense to me to envision a God who says, "Hmmm, total atheist, hostile to church religion, yet loves his neighbor, helps the poor -- yeah, he's Kingdom material; he'll easily get over the shock of My existence," with a smile.

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There probably will be atheist in heaven. There will pagans who worshipped Baal, Diana, Buddha, etc. there also. You have finally grasped the whole point of what God is looking for in us humans. It is how we treat other people. Religious people have doctrines right (some of them). But spiritual people have relationship right.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Pockey]

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But now, what of those who "bow down and confess the justice of their sentence" -- "God You are just and true in all Your ways. You did everything You could to save me; it is I who have rejected You. Do to me as I deserve." What is to stop the Judge of All the Earth, Who Must Do Right, from looking upon them EVEN AS HE LOOKED UPON THE THIEF ON THE CROSS WHO, AT THE HOUR OF HIS JUST DESSERTS OF A DEATH, HAD NO REPENTANCE OR RESTITUTION TO OFFER, BUT ONLY A CONFESSION OF THE RIGHTNESS OF GOD AND WRONGNESS OF SELF???

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I believe the thing is, is that although these people may fall prostrate and worship God, they still hate God. In GC [ch 42], it says [:"blue"]"Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged . . . The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah."[/]

[Nicodema]

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May I ask where you are getting this "traditional esctology"? There are wide differnces among

sda's on this topic. Actually, this is a rather new idea in our church.

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It's nothing new. It was being kicked around as the way to explain how people end up in the lake of fire at least 20+ years ago when I first became an SDA, and possibly who knows how long before that. Yes, it is probably relatively new, when we consider people before this were quite happy with a punitive godform who exacted His righteous wrath and indignation against sinners via the lake of fire. Now we have a holy God who IS consuming fire but He's still in the business, apparently, of destroying sentient creatures forever, who fail to conform properly. A few more turns of the theological evolutionary screw and we'll have done away with destruction itself instead ... as God clearly intended. He's waiting for HIS CHARACTER to be PERFECTLY REPRODUCED in His people, right? What character is that? "But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the unthankful and the evil."-- Luke 6:35.

What is the Great Controversy all about if not over the very character of God? He has, for the hardness of our hearts, suffered us to cling to this delusion for only a season, that we will have the sick little pathetic payback our wicked little narrow hearts crave (including mine too, I'm not pointing fingers here) at the end of time. But the joyful thing is this: He can have our cake and eat it too! Because He can BOTH utterly destroy AND set back to blueprint default AT ONCE and FOR ALL. Do you think ALL God's creatures have free will? What did Christ die for? Did He not die to set the captives free? It is the BEAST that wants us to believe in a God that is a calloused, smug, self-righteous imperialistic, parasitic capitalist wastrel and warmonger. It is the BEAST that wants us to be in awe of FEAR and tremble in TERROR and say, "oh who can make war against this one" while we think of HIS (Beast's) characteristics as being GOD's instead!

Or what do you think it means to sing the song of Moses and of the Lamb? Do you even know what that song is about? It's about offering ourselves in the place of others before almighty God -- an offering of ETERNAL lives, not just temporal ones. A willingness to be blotted from His book to see the ungrateful rebels spared, just as Moses demonstrated, just as Jesus DID by dying on the Cross. THAT is the character of Christ PERFECTLY reproduced. When you can honestly say to God you would rather be blotted from the Book of Life than to see the ungrateful rebels destroyed, that is the perfect character of Christ.

As for "wide differences", yes I will acknowledge there are a variety of things being taught in the church at large. However, first of all, it's too easy to plead "wide differences" as a means of disassociating from any one of them that someone finds distasteful; second, who is going to own responsibility in the end for what gets passed off as SDA doctrine with all the "wide variety" of SDA books, cassettes, publishing vehicles, etc.?

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The whole issue is whether they want a relationship with God. Anyone who desires one can have one. God is life. No one can live without being connected to God.

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All of which -- perhaps not for YOU Dave but implicit in the way this stuff is taught -- is nothing but an euphemism. The implicit, unspoken subtext fills in the real meaning here. "Relationship with God" is a phrase used to denote correct behavior and/or obedience (usually in the letter of the law sense). People are deemed "out of relationship" when they falter or make decisions outside the letter of the law. People are deemed to have severed that connection the moment they entertain an ungodly thought or perform a disobedient act or live in a less than perfect state which does not conform to the letter of the law.

NOTE: I do NOT agree with that (above) but that is what I see in how it gets presented. Please don't get the two mixed up!

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The Holy Spirit is in the business of teaching us how to use that free will in a healthy, beneficial way. God ... does not want people killing, misusing, destroying like humans now do.

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I quite agree. This is why we all need to be recreated in body as well as renewed in mind and spirit. The renewing here and now, by itself, is NOT ENOUGH to rid us of the virus we call sin. It temporarily puts up some obstacles so we can function as close to virus free as possible, but only in the resurrection do we get Rebooted 100% Virus Free.

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Perhaps you need a new view of what sin really is. Sin is doing harm, damage, destruction to anyone, any animal, anything in the enviromment.

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I don't think I need a "view of what sin is" my friend. I've seen firsthand what sin is and what it does. I've also seen that there are things that don't conform to the letter of the law that are essentially harmless, and ought to be treated as such. And no I'm not going to give a list here, because that is immaterial. It's not a matter of whether your list would match mind. Point is we all know I'm telling the truth here. There are things deemed sin that are harmless. Do we degenerate back to stupid "because I said so" mentality being attributed to God or do we evolve into a better understanding that maybe, just maybe, God really IS higher than we are, with ways and thoughts better and higher than our own?

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Because God gave us free will, He will not remake us unless we give Him permission to do so.

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I'd call bowing down and confessing (agreeing with God about what is true) the justice of the death sentence to be just as much "giving permission" as the thief on the cross gave. So far no one has shown me otherwise. You have multiplied words against me but you have failed to make a convincing case that what these people do is any different than the thief on the cross. I'd venture to guess if Christ had responded to the thief with rejection and ignoring him, he would have gone to cursing Him too. Or will you contend the righteousness was indeed in that dying thief and NOT in Christ, that the thief would have kept being respectful to a Christ who spat on his pain, shut him out and ignored him? HMMM?? I tell you he would NOT! And so if Christ is to say "this day thou shalt be with me" to those confessing the justice of their sentence, it shall be as with the thief on the cross in that day. But your eschatology says no, that they will receive shutting out and ignoring, and only because an arbitrary measure of time has passed. Your eschatology in this regard makes a mockery of BOTH God's Love (mercy) AND Justice by doing so, in my opinion.

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This sounds a bit like a bigot. There are things in my life that I have down which I am now ashamed of. If I told religious people, their bigotry would immediately arise.

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Whatever. I'm not going to let you bait me with name calling. There is plenty in my own life I am ashamed to have done but I'll tell you this much, when I did it, I don't think I pretended it was Christianity, or made out that it was endorsed by the Christian God.

Yes, I know the difference between spiritual and religious. But I'll be happy to listen to your definition and/or explanation about it nonetheless.

[Nicodema]

Isaiah 55:8-9:

• [:"blue"]

  8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

  neither are your ways my ways,"

  declares the LORD .

  9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,

  so are my ways higher than your ways

  and my thoughts than your thoughts.

  [/]

We quote this like we mean it, and then the BEST we can come up with, eschatologically speaking, is to portray God as being NOT higher, NOT better, NOT above & beyond us and our petty little human ways, but rather, just like us on a "grander" scale? Come on!!! This is GOD we are talking about here! If Jesus taught love thine enemies, to do good to those who do us despiteful ill, and to be like God who is "kind to the unthankful and the evil" then WHY is the best we can conceive that God will be a little Hitler sending off to the eternal gas chamber all who displease Him, who didn't measure up, who disagreed, who didn't get it, who rebelled, who were just as caught up in the doo-doo (sorry) of this world as the rest of us? THIS IS NOT THE GOD THAT DIED ON A CROSS TO SAVE A WRETCHED SINNER LIKE ME!! This is not my Jesus who with a word drove demons from the soul of the possessed who could only cry out in madness at His approach!! This is not the God I was taught would come back for His people WHEN THE CHARACTER OF CHRIST IS REPRODUCED IN US!!!

[Nicodema]

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I believe the thing is, is that although these people may fall prostrate and worship God, they still hate God. In GC, it says

[:"blue"]"Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged . . . The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah."

[/]

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And as for your character, Sid, whether it be changed or not, so that you may be one who does not hate God, from whom comes that change? Of yourself? Or of God? "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? So then may you do good, who are accustomed to doing evil." "There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

[Pockey]

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And as for your character, Sid, whether it be changed or not, so that you may be one who does not hate God, from whom comes that change? Of yourself? Or of God? "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? So then may you do good, who are accustomed to doing evil." "There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are

all

gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is

none

that doeth good,

no, not one.

"

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I agree with Jeremiah 13:23. And He goes on to promise that: [:"red"]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19

[Pockey]

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I'd call bowing down and confessing (agreeing with God about what is true) the justice of the death sentence to be just as much "giving permission" as the thief on the cross gave. So far no one has shown me otherwise. You have multiplied words against me but you have failed to make a convincing case that what these people do is any different than the thief on the cross.

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Is it the same though? EGW writes in Desire of Ages Ch 78: [:"330066"]There is no question now. There are no doubts, no reproaches. When condemned for his crime, the thief had become hopeless and despairing; but strange, tender thoughts now spring up. He calls to mind all he has heard of Jesus, how He has healed the sick and pardoned sin. He has heard the words of those who believed in Jesus and followed Him weeping. He has seen and read the title above the Saviour's head. He has heard the passers-by repeat it, some with grieved, quivering lips, others with jesting and mockery. The Holy Spirit illuminates his mind, and little by little the chain of evidence is joined together. In Jesus, bruised, mocked, and hanging upon the cross, he sees the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Hope is mingled with anguish in his voice as the helpless, dying soul casts himself upon a dying Saviour. "Lord, remember me," he cries, "when Thou comest into Thy kingdom."

Quickly the answer came. Soft and melodious the tone, full of love, compassion, and power the words: Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with Me in paradise.[/]

Contrast this with her description in Great Controversy Ch 42: [:"green"]The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.[/] Of note, she describes this as occurring after they have fallen prostrate and worship the Lord!

[DaveM1936]

As I understand your point of view:

You believe that the lost will be recreated again in the same way Adam and Eve were created, sinless, righteous, perfect. Is this correct?

Rev 20:1-15

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.

2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth-- Gog and Magog-- to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (NIV)

This is the entire chapter of Rev 20, the only place in the Bible where this event is portrayed. Where in this chapter do you find that the wicked are given a second change. I am willing to learn. Please give me Bible texts that support your ideas.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Nicodema]

I haven't forgotten about this thread, but didn't have a chance to get on the board earlier when my energy was more abundant. I'll address these things when I've had some rest.

[Pockey]

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I haven't forgotten about this thread, but didn't have a chance to get on the board earlier when my energy was more abundant. I'll address these things when I've had some rest.

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Thank-you for posting this. Take your time...rest.

[Nicodema]

It's been a busy week and whenever I've had time to get to the board I've been feeling either too tired or too touchy to get into a good deep discussion. Please bear with me, I will get back to this when I can. I have some thoughts I shared in chat with another member of the forum that I'd like to post as well because they touch on this subject.

[Nicodema]

OK, I'm going to post some thoughts about this which others can feel free to comment on provided they are mature enough not to get personal about it.

I simply cannot abide the thought that God is no greater, no higher, no wiser than human beings. We think the greatest good in the world is to be rid of those with whom we disagree -- those who make existence unpleasant for us -- surely God must be wiser, higher, better than that.

If I, a lowly human being, can conceive of better than that, how much greater and higher can the God who made me think?

Don't you see? It's inevitable that there must be something better than what we can conceive. I won't pretend to argue that I know what that is -- I can only know what MY mind can conceive --

-- but I can state that neither should doctrine definitively propose to answer that beyond the eradication of sin, death, suffering and pain which is assured.

Even on computers we can quarantine and clean files that are virus-ridden so they become usable again no matter how corrupted they got with the virus, right?

Do we care whether the file decides to be virus free? It never chose to be virus ridden! The anti-virus software is for the whole computer!

The master programmer decides to apply it, not the files themselves.

Not, mind you, that human beings are just like computer applications or anything ... the point is ... we didn't have a choice about being in this mess to begin with, and the choice to get us out is a DONE DEAL made by a compassionate Creator. I'm willing to bet I can find more verses in scripture to indicate that salvation is for everyone than anyone else can find to indicate to the contrary!

I do believe Christ saves those who put their trust in Him from the fire of hell and the experience of the second death. But that doesn't mean we have any place to make definitive statements about what happens to those who are put to those flames or through that death without Him, what He does ultimately with their blueprints.

I have been asked, "Do you believe that those at the 2nd resurrection, the ones outside the gate, that God may save some of them?" To which I can only reply: I don't know. What I do know is this:

(1) I see no difference between their confession and that wrung from the lips of the theif on the cross as he hung there facing death with no hope of reprieve -- they are in the SAME SITUATION.

(2) The Song of Moses and the Lamb will be sung by the 144,000. Do you know what this Song entails? It is nothing less than the experience of offering one's OWN eternal place for the sake NOT of the guiltless but of the unregenerate and reprobate rebels -- even as Moses prayed, "forgive -- but if Thou wilt not, then blot me from Thy book ..." and even as Christ died on the cross saying "Father FORGIVE THEM for they know NOT what they do." Do you think this prayer was just a cute euphemism? Does the Father ignore the Son's dying breath? Do you think "love thine enemies" is just a platitude?

Or is it preparation for something bigger?

Is it a blueprint for eternal life for EVERYONE???

I don't know, and I don't pretend to know. All I know is what I've been shown:

That when the character of Christ is PERFECTLY reproduced in His people, THEN will He come to claim them as His own.

The LAST and ONLY thing we have yet to give up is this right of wanting our enemies destroyed.

Love conquers ALL.

What is Christ if not a love greater than all our sin, greater than all our evil?

Do we really believe in Him? Or do we only believe in destruction?

If we worship the notion of a God who destroys, what are we worshiping? What, really? Who has the power of death?

"Destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil."

How can the devil be destroyed?

(1) end his existence forever

(2) make him again an angel

How is an enemy destroyed?

(1) end his existence forever

(2) end the enmity -- that is, (2) make him a friend

Love conquers ALL.

"But it cannot be forced," you say?

It has nothing to do with that.

That is a lie!

The notion that love CAN be forced is ITSELF a lie!

Love IS.

Once anything of force enters, it is no longer Love.

The whole point is ... what rules in the end? Love? Or force?

Has all this been just so God can finally declare yes, might makes right, move over rejectors of my grace your destruction cometh?

Don't you see?

We have created a complete contradiction in God's character for ourselves and called it the antidote to something that never existed in the first place: the bogeyman of imaginary "forced love"! There is no such thing, cannot be any such thing! Just like there cannot be a darker light or a lighter darkness!

We have made God in OUR image, with all our worries that if we don't have the spanking stick, everyone will run amok. God intends to rule only by LOVE, not by FORCE!!! That is what CHRIST is all about! What kind of ruler lets Himself be murdered by His subjects????

Remember Christ said He had MANY MORE THINGS to say to His disciples but THEY could not bear it! What do you suppose He wanted to tell them? What sort of thing could He have had to say that they could NOT YET BEAR? Because of their FRAIL humanity and need for growth at that point? Remember these were men like us, but DEEPLY immersed in a culture wherein slavery, WAR, oppression of women as chattel, etc. were all considered "acceptable."

I've been asked whether I "believe everyone will be saved." I believe everyone already has been saved. I believe God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. I believe that if Christ be lifted up, all men shall be drawn unto Him. I believe there is a PLAUSIBLE ALTERNATIVE SCENARIO to our existing eschatology to conceive of something else happening at the 2nd resurrection than what we have traditionally thought, yes. And I believe since none of us can claim to know God's plan fully or perfectly, it behooves us to keep an open mind, most especially where His character is at issue in the great controversy.

I also believe there is Biblical evidence to suggest the viability of this scenario, based upon the Thief on the Cross, the Song of Moses and of the Lamb, and also upon Christ's teaching and example concerning Love and Enemies and the treatment of others in general.

FINALLY ... I believe that there is no significant difference between ourselves and these others, nay even Satan himself, insofar as that ALL that occurs so as to transform us and/or fit us to be saved, and/or make us cognizant and willing toward salvation, is entirely the merciful work of God's Holy Spirit, and we have but once, BUT ONCE, to echo truth, to open ourselves thereunto in a flash. All we have to do is agree once with God about the truth to be forever changed in the twinkling of an eye.

All that we invest in free will is but hubris. Sin controls those not-so-free wills of ours unless or until Christ intervenes on our behalf personally through the agency of the Holy Spirit. If that is needed for us who choose Him, and if our choosing of Him is wholly His doing in us (which scripturally it is) there is nothing therefore to hold Him back from doing so for and in others. The part we may be privileged to play is outlined in the Bible as ministers of the reconciliation which is already in place through the death of His Son.

The Bible says whosoever committeth sin is the servant (slave) of sin. Can the slave of one master choose to serve another? If only evil and sin rules continually where will arise the will to serve God if not placed in us from outside us, from Him? So it is with every servant of sin. I heard Satan himself bemoaning his lot and his inability to change that which he willed, even begging that "free will" be taken from him as it was no longer free; the virus, the disease controlled him utterly. Is not Christ a mighty healer, and will He not deliver the afflicted and set the captives free?

All creation groans for that day. ALL creation.

Really, when you think about it, we who claim His name are probably chief among those "holding up the works" here, because we still insist upon judgment and condemnation, exclusion and execution. We still refuse to love our enemies.

It is literally the final point of the great controversy. Will we love our enemies as did Christ? Or will we take the mind of the "beast" and call for their destruction for our convenience and satisfaction?

Why do you think we need 1000 years?

We are so slow to catch on ...

What is being burned?

What is being destroyed?

So what is the fear then -- that people will say, "God is so loving I can do whatever I want?" Listen: It is impossible that the Love of Christ can do ANYTHING BUT compel the heart to want to serve and please God ... IF ONLY the Love of Christ be truly seen. Time and Experience are wise teachers, set upon us all by the Most High. They quickly teach the soul that one may not simply do as one pleases without consequences.

That is what the crux of Deuteronomy 28-30 is about. That all consequence, positive and negative, is ordained by God for our instruction and our being "reined in" toward Him, caused to return to Him if we stray. Cause and effect -- they are built into this universe and work to our benefit in this respect. Remember: God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and love, and of a sound mind.

These are some of my thoughts on the matter. There is more, but this has been long enough already.