This is Not "My" Church

[CGMedley]

AR news editor Mark Kellner is making a call for staying true to our fundamental beliefs. His editorial is a response to several voices that seek to steer the church new directions on issues like evolution and homosexuality.

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2010-1515&page=7

[karl]

Quote:

I don’t “own” the church—and neither do you. Jesus said, “I will build my church” (Matt. 16:18), which makes Him the one in charge.

It’s alarming to see people — ones who claim affiliation with and fidelity to the Seventh-day Adventist Church — turn around and proclaim this church “must” embrace teachings and practices that are at odds with our historic faith and the clear statements of God’s Word.

But, unfortunately, there's gonna be a committee interpreting what Jesus said.

The salvation of the church, IMO, is that Jesus is in charge by speaking through each heart. Each of us is a volunteer and we cannot be forced. It's like herding cats.

The church is going to be people cooperating according to each conscience, so it will always be a majority, or collective conscience, thing. I don't see any other option.

[Neil D]

AR news editor Mark Kellner is making a call for staying true to our fundamental beliefs. His editorial is a response to several voices that seek to steer the church new directions on issues like evolution and homosexuality.

[Que music from Fiddler on the Roof}

TRA-di-tiooon! Tradition! da da dom dom ...TRADITION!

[olger]

Always glad to see comittment to truth in the face of progressive pressure.

og

[Tom Wetmore]

If there had been no "progressive pressure" on established "truth" we would still be in the Dark Ages.

[olger]

Any idea is a good idea?

All change is good change?

No. It must line up with the word of God,

g

[Tom Wetmore]

And the Reformation lined up with the word of God against the established interpretation that supposedly also lined up with the word of God.

The wise words of Gamaliel come to mind...

[Neil D]

Always glad to see comittment to truth in the face of progressive pressure.

When "progressive pressure " becomes the norm, we have 'tradition'.....What you call "progressive pressure" is resistance to change....Change that is deeper in meaning, clarifies theological conundrums, benefits life better....

....and you, the fud-de-duddly of the form, resists change....Why am I not surprized?

[olger]

Yes, the Reformation called men out of the great darkness predicted in Daniel 7:25; 2 Thess. 2:7. The Scriptures also reveal a dangerous time of error in the end where church members themselves will turn away from sanctification (2 Timothy 3:-1-5).

Let us not be among that number.

og

[olger]

Actually, Neil until now, the Adventist church has not been faced with such racing changes, leading to ends so alien to our faith, and marketed in such alluring format.

Well did Paul warn us through Timothy that perilous (chalepos) times were coming (2 Tim. 3:1-5). This prophecy is upon us.

endure,

oG

[Neil D]

Actually, Neil until now, the Adventist church has not been faced with such racing changes, leading to ends so alien to our faith, and marketed in such alluring format.

Well did Paul warn us through Timothy that perilous (chalepos) times were coming (2 Tim. 3:1-5). This prophecy is upon us.

Really???

Well, when an over imaginative mind, fueled by suggestions whose source is the fear of the TV, is given a place to 'sound the alarm', we find that the alarm is sounded far too often.....most often do to reassure oneself that one is 'in the truth'..

If that same over imaginative mind is given a right work to do, ie make friends with neighbors, becoming pro-active in the community at large [and not just a church], we find a much more solid source with far fewer frequency of alarmings with realistic situations found in the bible...

[olger]

So you are saying that I am "over-imaginative.."

And you are saying that my main fear is television?

Forgive me, I cannot remember when we have met. When was it?

[karl]

Yes, the Reformation called men out of the great darkness predicted in Daniel 7:25; 2 Thess. 2:7. The Scriptures also reveal a dangerous time of error in the end where church members themselves will turn away from sanctification (2 Timothy 3:-1-5).

That dangerous time of error would be now.

Sanctification has been under attack in our church since Barnhouse and Martin spurred the publication of "Questions on Doctrine."

Fortunately, we have the collective conscience of the church body which has not turned away from the understanding of salvation which includes both justification and sanctification.

The lingo of the anti-sanctification theologians has worked its way into our conversations, but people still understand on a gut level that it is all about obedience. The problem is each sinner's disobedience (not just Adam's.) The solution is each person's obedience through faith in God working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

If we will do to His will, we shall know of the doctrine. IF we don't really want to do His will, we'll cling to anti-sanctification theology or just leave the church for one that teaches the Ten Commandments are irrelevant.

Dale Ratzlaff is just waiting with open arms for anyone who wants to ash-can sanctification.

[phkrause]

[Que music from Fiddler on the Roof}

TRA-di-tiooon! Tradition! da da dom dom ...TRADITION!

Your not making fun of one of my favorite movies are you????

pk

[Neil D]

So you are saying that I am "over-imaginative.."

And you are saying that my main fear is television?

Forgive me, I cannot remember when we have met. When was it?

I'm sorry...I don't remember saying that it was you....

...When did we first meet? I dunno...It certainly is not on this planet....I'm on a planet called "Terra Firma" aka "Earth" ...Which planet are you on?

[Neil D]

The lingo of the anti-sanctification theologians has worked its way into our conversations, but people still understand on a gut level that it is all about obedience. The problem is each sinner's disobedience (not just Adam's.) The solution is each person's obedience through faith in God working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Surprisingly, I agree with this....

The problem is getting people to obey. The emphasis always seems to be on being right, and doing right and proclaiming the Law....I guess that is why it is called "righteousness".....

Personally, unless mercy and forgiveness and love are extended, and perfected, I can never see anyone actually succeeding in obeying all the time...

[Neil D]

Your not making fun of one of my favorite movies are you???

Nope....just stating the facts.....see the above answers, PK....do they help answer your question???

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: karl

The lingo of the anti-sanctification theologians has worked its way into our conversations, but people still understand on a gut level that it is all about obedience. The problem is each sinner's disobedience (not just Adam's.) The solution is each person's obedience through faith in God working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Surprisingly, I agree with this....

The problem is getting people to obey. The emphasis always seems to be on being right, and doing right and proclaiming the Law....I guess that is why it is called "righteousness".....

Personally, unless mercy and forgiveness and love are extended, and perfected, I can never see anyone actually succeeding in obeying all the time...

I don't disagree, but I think the labels and words we choose tend to distort or grossly over-simplify the whole topic. And a problem is the polarization by emphasizing the extreme views from either side as if they represent the majority view or even truly reflect a contrary point of view. Balance that accounts for all aspects of the complexity of this whole topic is needed.

Yes, at gut level, obedience is the requirement without question. But is sanctification only about simply obedience? What does it mean to be righteous? How does one cleanse their whole self of sin? Is it simply blotting out the records of our sin? Does it also include ceasing from committing any more sins? Is that all there is to it?

Go to the cellular level of the brain. Sin resides deep within us. Every cell of our body is saturated with sin. Every synapses of our brain has been corrupted and infected with the virus of sin. How do we wipe all that out, erasing the evil that haunts our subconscious and seeps out into our conscious thoughts at inopportune moments? If we get rid of all that will we be righteous? So is it simply wiping out all the bad? Is that all that God requires?

Isn't more required? What does it really mean to be righteous? Isn't it more than just not being bad? Isn't it about being really, really good? Not just no more bad thoughts and bad deeds, we must also be altogether good, thinking only good thoughts and doing good things - ALL THE TIME, with no slip ups, now and forever, for eternity.

That requires being completely reprogrammed, and then some more. But just as with a computer, if you take an old defective, computer, hard-wired at the CPU/motherboard badly, full, of malware and corrupted files, and I mean fully loaded, and try to install new and better programs and the latest upgrades, we still have a poorly functioning computer and all those new programs get infected and run less than perfectly. You have to destroy all that is bad first and replace it with only what is good and perfect. That includes the hardware. A complete disk wipe. All new software installed in new hardware. And a computer is powerless to fix itself or even do much to help. And we still have to connect to the Internet and have perfect firewalls against all the malware waiting out there... We live in a world that bombards us with new sin virus and malware every second of every day.

That is where faith comes in. Yes, we know we have to stop being bad and start being good. But this side of the Second Coming, we are stuck with defective hardware running corrupted software. All that we can do now is tinker with what we're stuck with, programming temporary work-arounds and fixes, patches on old rotten hardware. We try and stumble stagger and lurch through life, like babies learning to walk. And just as babies that do eventually learn to walk, we still stumble at times, stub our toes and fall down and bump our heads. (And time doesn't help because the longer we live we again start looking like that staggering baby again..) Sanctification - the work of a lifetime. Nice slogan. A platitude considering the magnitude of what we are up against. Life is too short. No life is long enough.

But by faith, we look to the One who is perfect and who will make it all right in the end. And by faith we know it can be done, even if we see only dimly small flashes of the good shining through right now. It is only by faith, right now, that we can hope to grasp the righteousness that God has in mind for us. We can only simulate and poorly imitate it now, but we move forward in faith, hope an expectation of becoming a new creation where all is good again as He pronounced it at the first creation.

And we are changed, completely, in the an instant, in the blink of an eye. It just takes a little faith to hang on to that hope. "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth..." No more bad. It's all good. Right down to the subatomic level, the DNA and genetic level of all living things. It all has to change and once again run as God originally designed it. It must obey all the laws, natural and moral, of God.

And how does this relate to this topic. Getting back to fundamentals is more complex and difficult than a list of 28.

[karl]

Yes, at gut level, obedience is the requirement without question. But is sanctification only about simply obedience? What does it mean to be righteous? How does one cleanse their whole self of sin? Is it simply blotting out the records of our sin? Does it also include ceasing from committing any more sins? Is that all there is to it?

Go to the cellular level of the brain. Sin resides deep within us.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean : wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice . 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. 16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise .

[Neil D]

,,,,,,aaaannnnnddd, this means....what?

[karl]

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Psalm 51 is the who, the why and the how.

[Tom Wetmore]

And at what point in David's life did he have that new pure heart that God created for him?

For it was by faith that David realized the promise of what he spiritually trusted would be the reality someday. (See Hebrews 11)

That beautiful Psalm should be our daily prayer of hope to which we cling in faith until we are changed to a reality that will match what we now have only by faith.

[karl]

It happened. I don't know when, but the change came so that God could say this to Jeroboam:

1 Kings 14:8

... and yet thou hast not been as my servant David, who kept my commandments, and who followed me with all his heart, to do that only which was right in mine eyes;

[fccool]

Mark Kellner needs to read my article about what church really is, and what is our place in it. I think he got used to the idea of the Laity and the Clergy.

http://www.andreyarkhipov.com/?p=45

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: CGMedley

AR news editor Mark Kellner is making a call for staying true to our fundamental beliefs. His editorial is a response to several voices that seek to steer the church new directions on issues like evolution and homosexuality.

[Que music from Fiddler on the Roof}

TRA-di-tiooon! Tradition! da da dom dom ...TRADITION!

Are you Roman Catholic? (lol)