This is Not "My" Church

[Overaged]

Yes, the Reformation called men out of the great darkness predicted in Daniel 7:25; 2 Thess. 2:7. The Scriptures also reveal a dangerous time of error in the end where church members themselves will turn away from sanctification (2 Timothy 3:-1-5).

Let us not be among that number.

og

Good points!

[karl]

The majority of Christians today have turned away from sanctification. I call it the "Amy Grant" effect. The lyrics of her immensely popular Christian song stated that sanctification is impossible, therefore Christians shouldn't concern themselves with it. "I believed that I'd change bye and bye... that kind of life's a lie.... Bein' good is just a fable. I just can't cuz I'm not able. I'm gonna leave it to the Lord."

[SivartM]

Isn't the point of sanctification "leaving it to the Lord", since we are powerless to change ourselves?

[Overaged]

Yes, at gut level, obedience is the requirement without question. But is sanctification only about simply obedience?

"Sanctification" is about Jesus.

[Tom Wetmore]

karl, give us a progress report on your sanctification. How far have you progressed? How far do you have yet to go? When will you be completely sanctified?

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Yes, at gut level, obedience is the requirement without question. But is sanctification only about simply obedience?

"Sanctification" is about Jesus.

I agree.

[phkrause]

Isn't the point of sanctification "leaving it to the Lord", since we are powerless to change ourselves?

That might be true Sivart but its still a reality. Sanctification is still a part of the eqaution (sp).

[SivartM]

Of course it is. I'm just saying that Amy Grant's song doesn't disagree with that.

[John317]

Quote:

dgrimm60:

this is a very good and intersting aritlce with

very good points

dgrimm60

Can you tell us what you find good and interesting in the article?

Is there anything you strongly agree with or that you disagree with?

[SivartM]

Why?

[John317]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore:

karl, give us a progress report on your sanctification. How far have you progressed? How far do you have yet to go? When will you be completely sanctified?

Let's go back and take a look at Karl's post:

Karl said, "The majority of Christians today have turned away from sanctification. I call it the "Amy Grant" effect. The lyrics of her immensely popular Christian song stated that sanctification is impossible, therefore Christians shouldn't concern themselves with it. "I believed that I'd change bye and bye... that kind of life's a lie.... Bein' good is just a fable. I just can't cuz I'm not able. I'm gonna leave it to the Lord."

Do you agree with anything in Karl's post? It seems that you disagree with something Karl posted, but would you like to explain why you disagree?

It's true that there is no good thing in me of myself, but if I have Jesus Christ and His Spirit in my life, won't there be a big difference between my life as it was before Christ came into my life and the way my life is today? What part does the believer have in deciding how his life is today, and what part does Jesus have?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Isn't the point of sanctification "leaving it to the Lord", since we are powerless to change ourselves?

That might be true Sivart but its still a reality. Sanctification is still a part of the eqaution (sp).

[John317]

Does anyone see anything good in the article or anything they strongly disagree with?

If so-- either way-- explain your position, and give your reasons.

My own position is that the writer makes a very good case, and that it is very relevant to what's going on within our church today. We all know of people who are in the SDA church and who are urging that the church change in one way or another to conform to their personal ideas of what the church should either believe or practice. And many of these changes are opposed to what the church believes the Bible teaches.

A case in point-- but by no means either the only one or the most important case-- is the notion that the practice of homosexuality should be accepted. Another is that the church should condemn all abortions. Still another, that individual unions or conferences should unilaterally ordain women to be church pastors and elders. Yet another, that the church ought to jettison the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment. Often connected to the rejection of the IJ is the urging that the church reject the belief that Ellen White was a prophet of God. Some also want to reject the Bible's teaching that God created all life during 6 literal days. Lastly, there's the doctrine of the Trinity that some SDAs are urging and teaching that the church should to reject.

I believe these are all wrong, and the reason I believe they are wrong is that the doctrines we hold on these issues are firmly based on the Bible. When I joined the church, I joined it because I believed in its doctrines and practices. If I don't like the beliefs of the church, I will leave it. I won't stay in it and claim to be a member yet agitate that the chuch change its fundamental beliefs which I promised to uphold and believe. If I change my mind about its fundamental beliefs, I would have the honesty to leave the church and try to change it from outside, not from the inside.

Quote:

One of today’s more popular tropes is that the laity, somehow, have “ownership” of the church. Because members are “stakeholders,” the reasoning goes, those in the pews have the “right” to expect, even demand, the church bend its teaching to fit our whims, or the mores of the moment. If society accepts a practice, even if that practice contradicts a clear “you shall not” from God, the church must find a way around the stricture as we all stride toward greater “freedom.”

Forgive me if I don’t join this procession. Christian faith has already “emerged”; it is eternally “relevant”; and the message of the gospel has been “localized” for “every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people” (Rev. 14:6, KJV). I don’t “own” the church—and neither do you. Jesus said, “I will build my church” (Matt. 16:18), which makes Him the one in charge.

It’s alarming to see people—ones who claim affiliation with and fidelity to the Seventh-day Adventist Church—turn around and proclaim this church “must” embrace teachings and practices that are at odds with our historic faith and the clear statements of God’s Word. I grieve that our longtime embrace of religious freedom is seemingly morphing into solipsistic license.

When, like so many, I chose Adventism, it wasn’t with the idea of junking our core beliefs after a season, to then fit the fashion of the times. I freely support everyone’s right to their own conscience; they just don’t have, as the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said, the right to their own facts.

For Seventh-day Adventists, our facts and our faith are found in the Bible. I invite all in our church family to embrace and support its teachings. God will bless that effort. 

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Isn't the point of sanctification "leaving it to the Lord", since we are powerless to change ourselves?

That might be true Sivart but its still a reality. Sanctification is still a part of the eqaution (sp).

Is it still a part of the equation when so many people don't even know exactly what it is?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Isn't the point of sanctification "leaving it to the Lord", since we are powerless to change ourselves?

That might be true Sivart but its still a reality. Sanctification is still a part of the eqaution (sp).

[phkrause]

"We all know of people who are in the SDA church and who are urging that the church change in one way or another to conform to their personal ideas of what the church should either believe or practice."

This statement is very true and one of the reason's we have so many off shoot and prodisdent (sp) churches today. The reason I say this, is we have a couple friend that we were talking to some years ago. They were asking about the Moses Health Laws, dancing, etc rules of the SDA church. We mentioned things about pork, etc. It seems most people know the things we shouldn't be eating or drinking better than we do.

Anyway we got to asking them about why they picked the church they were going to and they said they had gone to a few different ones until they found one that fit them. I took that to mean eating of unclean food, worshipping on Sunday, etc. Because basicly that were the things they wanted to know about in our church.

[John317]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: Yes, at gut level, obedience is the requirement without question. But is sanctification only about simply obedience?

Sanctification is conformity to the will of God, and God's will is His law.

Righteousness by faith includes both justification and sanctification. That is to say, it includes both imputed and imparted righteousness.

The Bible speaks of sanctification in two ways: the sanctification that believers have the moment they are justified, which occurs instantanously when they place their complete trust in Christ; and the sanctification that is a process, which occurs as long as we live. Both are accomplished through faith Christ.

Sanctification simply means holiness, and it describes the process of being set apart as God's possession for His sacred purposes. Some people are more dedicated to God's purpose than others. Compare Sampson with Elijah. Both were servants of God but one was more sanctified than the other. By comparison with Sampson-- who was living an immortal life right up to the time he was blinded by God's enemies-- Elijah was completely devoted to God's work.

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: What does it mean to be righteous?

"Righteous" means "doing right." It's a word that refers to doing what God considers just and good. "Righteousness by faith" means that our faith causes us to do what is right. Paul refers to this kind of faith in Romans 1: 5 and 16: 26. God looks for the obedience-- the righteousness--that springs from faith in Christ.

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. [17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

But you ask about "being" righteous. That is different from doing what is righteous. We "do" righteous things--- but only God IS righteous, because God is righteousness-itself. We do what's righteous as we participate in His righteousness. He is the source of all righteouness. We are not righteous of ourselves, but we must have Christ's righteouness if we would have any righteousness at all.

How do we have it? Only as we are in intimate relationship with Christ. See 1 John 5: 12.

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: ... It is only by faith, right now, that we can hope to grasp the righteousness that God has in mind for us. We can only simulate and poorly imitate it now, but we move forward in faith, hope an expectation of becoming a new creation where all is good again as He pronounced it at the first creation. ...

The Bible says genuine believers in Christ become a new creation now, not at some point in the future. 2 Cor. 5:17

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Romans 6:1-23

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been united together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: [9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. [10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. [11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. [14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. [15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? [17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. [18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. [19] I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. [20] For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. [21] What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. [22] But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. [23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Also read Romans 8; 2 Peter 1: 1-13 and 1 John 3: 1-10.

[Tom Wetmore]

Same questions for you, "John317" - Give us a progress report on your sanctification. How far have you progressed? How far do you have yet to go? When will you be completely sanctified?

Are you in Christ?

Exactly what does it feel like to be a new creation? What does it look like? How do you act as a new creation? What are your innermost and deepest thoughts as a new creation? Are you a new creation right now? Are all the old things of you passed away; have all things about you become new? When did that happen for you?

[olger]

Good topic, men. And some very good responses. Karl, you have said something that I suspected for a long time now. The influence of QOD and the resulting potential pivot point in our theology.

I also appreciate your statement regarding the conditional aspect of salvation - the submission of our will to the will of God.

blessings,

g

[SivartM]

Isn't it awful how discussions on salvation always end up in debates over the exact meanings of justification, sanctification, and other made-up words?

[olger]

I don't know, but it is encouraging to hear testimonies of victory in the lives of fellow believers.

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them" (Revelation 12:11).

[SivartM]

It would be awfully nice if we could do that without trying to force everyone else to see salvation exactly in the same terms we do.

[olger]

We must be carful not to dishonor God by suggesting that sanctification is a made-up word when Jesus Himself introduced it in His wonderful prayer of John 17.

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

(Ps. "awfully nice" is an oxymoron).

[phkrause]

We must be carful not to dishonor God by suggesting that sanctification is a made-up word when Jesus Himself introduced it in His wonderful prayer of John 17.

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Excellent point olger.

(Ps. "awfully nice" is an oxymoron).

[Tom Wetmore]

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

And keep reading... "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth."

And what did he say about the truth? "I am the way, the truth and the life." And what "word" does he speak of? And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us."