This is Not "My" Church

[karl]

karl, give us a progress report on your sanctification. How far have you progressed? How far do you have yet to go? When will you be completely sanctified?

Sanctification is not a destination. It is a vocation. A calling. No Christian need concern himself with attainment - with when and how much sanctification is attained. Those who do are generally caviling the concept of sanctification.

Having said that, it is imperative that Christians believe in complete commitment and submission. This belief urges continuous growth. Stephen Covey (7 Habits of Highly Effective People) lectures internationally on the importance of having a goal out ahead of you. Why not total sanctification?

We press on toward the mark.

[olger]

Thanks Tom. I have John 17 memorized and it's always good to see more of it.

Full agreement regarding Jesus' example & regenerative power of the Spirit in the life of the believer. Both which are found in verse 19.

When we want to see God, our best look is at Jesus, the Way the Truth, and the Life." Here I would remind us that the Word also refers to the written word.

"And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." (I believe that one of the weaknesses of the NIV is that it omits "but by every word of God").

regards,

g

[SivartM]

We must be carful not to dishonor God by suggesting that sanctification is a made-up word when Jesus Himself introduced it in His wonderful prayer of John 17.

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

(Ps. "awfully nice" is an oxymoron).

If it's a word, it's made up. That word was actually made up after Jesus lived. Jesus said a different word in a different language that, at the time it was translated into English, had a similar meaning to "sanctify".

PS. "Awful" comes from "awe full", which just means full of awe or wonder. That's why God is "awful". And I am definitely in awe of people who can have the kind of conversation I was describing.

[fccool]

Quote:

It's true that there is no good thing in me of myself, but if I have Jesus Christ and His Spirit in my life, won't there be a big difference between my life as it was before Christ came into my life and the way my life is today? What part does the believer have in deciding how his life is today, and what part does Jesus have?

John,

I kind of touched it before in the previous discussion with you, and perhaps I'm wrong... here's my take on it.

There's nowhere you'll find in the Bible the idea that God completely takes away the sinful nature at conversion... he does not miraculously gets us rid of the bad habits or even sinful tendencies overnight. If that was the case, it WOULD be much easier to be a Christian. In fact it's not.

On one side we do get the freedom from certain things that we had problems with before. For me for example, I have no problem with health stuff... like drinking, smoking, overeating, exercising. I have no problem with loving and forgiving people. That comes very easy to me, and from my POV it's incomprehensible that someone struggles with those things.

On the other hand, I do have a problem with the smallest things that eventually get me... even though I do struggle with the issue and have streak of constant victories over these habits.

It's ironic that there's a school of Adventism there that would think that because of my failures... I don't know Christ. I've talked to an Adventist before who told me that he never sinned after the conversion.

The Biblical evidence is overwhelming that sanctification process is gradual, and personal. You may find similarities, but all are as different as the individuals being transformed.

A homosexual who has been so for greater part of his life will not be magically attracted to women post-conversion. He will most likely struggle with homosexual tendencies for the rest of his life. So, the tendencies are there, we just getting stronger and be able to resist them as time goes on. Such is the mode of sanctification. It's God's work being done through us... just like proclamation of the Gospel.

[karl]

Yep, fccool. Relationship changes us. By beholding we become changed. The change is not instantaneous. And that is why the AT Jones sermon on evolution vs creation can be misapplied. It is the direction that changes. Instead of being turned away from Christ so that we cannot behold Him, we are turned toward Him so that we can. And as long as we continue to behold Him, we continue to be changed into His image. It may very well be that this process continues into eternity.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

karl, give us a progress report on your sanctification. How far have you progressed? How far do you have yet to go? When will you be completely sanctified?

Sanctification is not a destination. It is a vocation. A calling. No Christian need concern himself with attainment - with when and how much sanctification is attained. Those who do are generally caviling the concept of sanctification.

"I believed that I'd change bye and bye... that kind of life's a lie.... Bein' good is just a fable. I just can't cuz I'm not able. I'm gonna leave it to the Lord."

Hummmmmmmmmmmm.........What's the difference between what Amy Grant says, and what Karl says.....? If "no Christian need concern himself with attainment", then what's the difference when one says of being perfect "I believed that I'd change bye and bye"...? Isn't this just the same coin but stated from a different point of view?

[Dr. Shane]

[Que music from Fiddler on the Roof}

TRA-di-tiooon! Tradition! da da dom dom ...TRADITION!

[Dr. Shane]

The Adventist church is neither progressive nor traditional. There is a ditch on both the right and left side of the narrow path. Satan doesn't care which ditch we fall into. The Adventist church is the remnant. We charge down the middle and leave the extremists on either side.

[Woody]

Quote:

The Adventist church is the remnant.

I've not seen any evidence that the church organization is the remnant. Nor .... are all the people in the church.

Do you have any evidence of this?

[whbae]

What kind of evidence are you looking for?

[Woody]

any kind that you might wish to offer for consideration. :)

[Dr. Shane]

Those that close their eyes will never see. The remnant is described as those that keep the Commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Well, I think it safe to say the Jews are not the remnant. Well, one of the Commandments tells us to honor the seventh day as the Sabbath. So it shouldn't be too hard to find the remnant. Just get in the car on Saturday morning and go driving around and find all the Christian churches that are honoring the day. There one will find the remnant.

[teresaq]

Quote:

The remnant is described as those that keep the Commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

yes, it does. and that will be when the sunday law comes in effect and purges out the "professors"....

its a pretty good bet that if any of us think we are "keeping the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus" that we do not.

our church "stands" for that, but the "testimonies" clearly state that we fall very short of such a claim.

[SivartM]

Today my Sabbath School teacher was talking about how the devil will persecute those who keep all of the commandments. I looked around the room and thought, "I guess we're all safe then."

[teresaq]

lol

[John317]

Today my Sabbath School teacher was talking about how the devil will persecute those who keep all of the commandments. I looked around the room and thought, "I guess we're all safe then."

That's an important point. This explains why there is no persecution against SDAs in the USA. There's too much compromise and love of man's

But at the same time, you are wrong if you think that none of them keep the commandments of God. You and I can't judge that at this time. We don't read minds and motivations. Only the angels of God knows who keeps the commandments of God. God has faithful, loyal Enochs. It is being revealed in the Investigative Judgment going on right now.

[SivartM]

If we claim that we are without sin, we are liars...

[John317]

If we claim that we are without sin, we are liars...

1 John 1: 8. But who is claiming to be without sin?

That text is not related to the topic, although I can see why you might think it is.

Keeping the commandments of God doesn't mean people don't ever sin.

When Ellen White described our church as "commandment keeping," she didn't mean for people to think she was saying the church is without sin or has no problems or defects.

You're making a common misake in your thinking on this topic.

Compare 1 John 2: 1-6 and 3: 1-11.

1 John 2:3-4

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

Is the Apostle John here telling us that no one knows Christ or that everyone who says they know him is a liar?

[phkrause]

Those that close their eyes will never see. The remnant is described as those that keep the Commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Well, I think it safe to say the Jews are not the remnant. Well, one of the Commandments tells us to honor the seventh day as the Sabbath. So it shouldn't be too hard to find the remnant. Just get in the car on Saturday morning and go driving around and find all the Christian churches that are honoring the day. There one will find the remnant.

I for one agree with you Shane. I remember hearing a sermon by John Carter on 3ABN. He was talking about the Remnant. And he went down history of all the different churches that brought a little more to the table. He ended with the Adventist church, which brought the Sabbath and a few other things to the table. I'm not sure but I believe he was saying that there was nothing else that the Bible has for another church to bring to the table. I am not a scholar of the Bible,but from what I've read I have not seen anything else for another church to bring forth. Now having said that, I would not keep searching just in case there is something that has been missed. Also I would say that at the coming of Jesus that the remnant spoken of there will be more than the just Adventist Christians, there will be those from many other churches that for sure. And there may also be those that have never been to a church, but this last part is just my opinion.

[phkrause]

And one more thing Shane that John Carter said was or mentioned that the Bible says, the remnant church would be keeping the 10 commandments, and as far as I can tell we are the only ones that do other than the Jews who mostly don't accept Jesus.

[teresaq]

there is a difference between claiming the 10c are still in effect, and actually living them, is the point being brought out i believe.

we shouldnt confuse ourselves that one is the same as the other.

[John317]

there is a difference between claiming the 10c are still in effect, and actually living them, is the point being brought out i believer.

Yes, that's obvious.

But the Bible also shows that it's not necessary to be sinless or without sin in order to be called a commandment keeper. Otherwise, there would never be any commandment-keepers, ever.

[teresaq]

i will accept that it does for you. :)

[Woody]

Today my Sabbath School teacher was talking about how the devil will persecute those who keep all of the commandments. I looked around the room and thought, "I guess we're all safe then."

I'm confused. I thought the Lord BLESSED those that keep His commandments ... such as Abraham.

[John317]

i will accept that it does for you.

Do the following verses describe people who are completely without sin?

Luke 1:6

And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord.

John 15:10

If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

1 John 5:3

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

1 John 3:9

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Rev. 12:17

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Compare the above with the following verses:

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:4-5

Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, [5] but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him.