Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 4, 2010 Administrators Share Posted June 4, 2010 I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. I think you are completely missing the point. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. I think you are completely missing the point. Which is? And this is related to the US killing al-Qaida how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. I think you are completely missing the point. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 4, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted June 4, 2010 Do you believe American soldiers are "murderers" when they kill other people during war? Were George Washington and Abraham Lincoln "murderers"? How about the soldier's who killed Confederates in order to free the slaves? Desmond Doss was a concientious objector and refused to carry a weapon during WWII, but he said he supported the war against Japan. Do you believe he was wrong? He called himself a "conscientious cooperator" because he didn't object to the war. He just objected to being part of the killing, so he was a medic. I also served my country as a medic and refused to train or carry a weapon during the Vietnam war. Was I wrong? The command not to murder does not include soldiers of the nations. It doesn't include governments who are legitimately protecting their citizens. The Bible shows us that governments have a right to have armed policemen and soldiers. See Romans 13: 1-7 and Numbers 1: 2, 20. As far as killing fetus' are concerned, I don't believe abortion is usually right but I believe women ought to have the right to make that choice for themselves, even if they choose wrong. Government don't have the right to make people do the right thing in every instance, and I believe abortion and using condoms or other means of birth controls are two of those instances where individual liberties rule. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 4, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted June 4, 2010 Quote: abelisle:Don't you find it both interesting and disturbing that according to a recent Pew Forum poll, American Christians to a high degree(62% of white evangelical Protestants) approve the use of torture but clearly are against abortion. Can you think of any time when "torture" might be the loving thing to do? How about when someone had knowledge of a plan to kill many people but he refuses to give up this knowledge so people can be saved? Let's say someone has your family and are planning to kill them at 12 noon. This man knows where they are but when you ask him to please tell you, he just laughs at you. You could get the information out of him if you force him to tell you, but instead you give him dinner and let him watch TV while you continue to plead with him to save your family. At 1:00 PM, you get the news that they found your families bodies-- what's left of them-- at a farm house 10 miles from where you sat pleading with the man watching TV and eating chicken salad with a smile on his face shaking his head "no" to your pleadings. Question: did you really do the loving thing? Now go back and do that scene over again. Will do the same thing or will you save your family by dunking that man's head in some water and making him feel like he's drowning? Quote: Alex: So, I ask, is it okay to kill adults but not unborn fetuses? Looks like we pay lip service to the Biblical admonition of "Love thy enemy"? I believe you have a simplified view of the issue. There are some circumstances where loving people requires the killing of some people. We live in a dangerous, complex world. For instance, can you think of times when it's necessary to kill someone in order to save other people's lives? God destroyed the world with a flood, didn't he? Why did God do it? What do you think happened at the Red Sea (Gen. 14)? If someone has a gun at your little girl's head and is threatening to blow her brains out, and the only way to save her is to kill the man, are you going to tell the police to save the man and let your little girl's brains get blown out? What does "love" require that you do at this point? Quote: Alex: (wondering if God loves terrorists too?) Yes, God loves everyone in the sense that He wants everyone to be saved. God loved Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot and the Pharoah of Egypt. Yet God is the one who gave the command to kill those who commit murder. Terrorists are murderers. They murder people indiscriminantly without regard to whether the person killed is a soldier or civiilian or a baby, etc. In fact, terrorists want to kill innocent civilians and children because it creates terror. Was it wrong to kill Hitler, a man whom God loved? Is it wrong to kill murderers under any circumstances? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 I still would like to see "the glee" that was expressed. Or was it phrased that way deliberately? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 4, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted June 4, 2010 Quote: Tom Wetmore:Yes, loving your enemies strongly implies not killing them. Can you think of any time or circumsances under which it is right for a government or an individual to kill the "enemy"? Would doing so necessarily require a rejection of the belief that God loves everyone, including the "enemy"? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 4, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted June 4, 2010 Quote: abelisle: What dismays me is the "gleeful" rhetoric expressed in the previous posts describing the execution of this terrorist, his family and others (who very well may have been innocent?). How can we as Christians revel in the death of any fellow human? We should be sad that his choices and actions resulted in his justifiable death. Just becauses he deserves to die, should we take both joy and pride in this event? Please post the words that you believe showed "gleeful rhetoric expressed at the execution of this terrortist". Quote: Alex: I strongly believe God grieves over the death of all of His creation. Yes, God does certainly grieve over the evil that humans do, and He hates it. God's hatred for sin and the value He places upon human beings is the reason that God commanded that people who took human life and did other evil things should be killed. Gen. 9: 5,6; Lev. 24:17; Ex. 21: 12; Acts 5: 1-6; Rev. 16: 5-7. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 Yes, if we consider them 'terrorists', it is okay...however when an other country says someone from this country is a 'terrroist',......thats another story. Classifying someone as a terrorist is a little more than just saying so.As the man that was killed with his family. He had rather a impressive resume as a terrorist Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abelisle Posted June 4, 2010 Members Share Posted June 4, 2010 Bonnie and John, This is about "attitude". This isn't about whether killing evil people is right or wrong or necessary. It is about this: "Should we be happy when speaking about the death of anyone?" My view is that as Christians we shouldn't be joyful about the death of any human. It may be a good thing for our society when a terrorist is killed or a person(s) attempting to harm our families but a joyful thing? This is what I meant by "gleeful" - probably the wrong choice of words. And Bonnie, yes, I have had to put bad people down in my former job. I have had to hold people bleeding to death. I have had to physically disarm guns and knives from people and break up fights. I was even told by authorities that I shouldn't be doing these things but I did them in order to protect the life of others. Hurting and killing people is not any fun. Necessary yes - happy about it, no. Sometimes it's easy for people to talk about inflicting pain when they have never been there. Yes, I would torture a person threatening to kill other people. Would I take satisfaction in doing it as a Christian? My answer is no. Lastly Bonnie, have you ever looked down a barrel of a gun and watched people go down around you? Ever since a shoot-out I was involved in, guns have not been my friend. When you witness death and destruction on a personal level, I think one can appreciate life more. And this goes especially for Christians. John, - all that killing you described in the Bible - yes - all committed by a loving God. Try explaining that to non-believers and keep it as simple as possible. Good luck. Alex ( all life is precious in God's eyes - I hope? ) Quote We are our worst enemy - sad but true. Â http://abelisle.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 Bonnie and John, This is about "attitude". This isn't about whether killing evil people is right or wrong or necessary. It is about this: "Should we be happy when speaking about the death of anyone?" My view is that as Christians we shouldn't be joyful about the death of any human. It may be a good thing for our society when a terrorist is killed or a person(s) attempting to harm our families but a joyful thing? This is what I meant by "gleeful" - probably the wrong choice of words. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 A gun is an inanimate object,neither capable of being your friend or foe. That's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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