If you had the power to make changes in Adventism, what would they be?

[abelisle]

I initially wrote these in another thread when John317 asked me this question and I thought this would be an interesting topic that would fulfill the guideles of this forum.

1)I would trim down the overall structure of church, maybe consolidating conferences and/or unions putting top administrators back in the field as pastors

2) Encourage more Bible, less SOP

3) Repeal the rule where new baptisms automatically become church members

4) Do away with our black conferences

5) De-emphasize Daniel and Revelation Seminars for major evangelical outreaches. Focus more on Christ, our health message and vehicles that appeal to young postmoderns

6) Emphasize health reform. Put church leaders on notice if they physically don't represent what they preach e.g. obese and gaunt looking ones need to try to look more healthy

7) Have more think tanks that can help make prayer meetings more interesting like EGW suggested they should be

8) Allow church employees to create CV's (curriculum vitaes) for themselves so that delegates will know who they are voting for at constiuency meetings. This is NOT campaigning.

9) Encourage/mandate a higher proportion of younger delegates and non-employee delegates at the GC

10) Have the Geoscience Research Institute do more research that frees making the scientists apologists for the church

Alex

[SivartM]

When you say SOP, do you mean Spirit of prophecy or Ellen White?

1. Get rid of Adventese (SOP, "pen of inspiration", "one of my favorite authors", etc.). Just call her Ellen White, for goodness sake. Do people talk about Habakkuk or C.S. Lewis this way?

2. Remove the distinction between "clergy" and "laity" and emphasize that pastors are (gasp) just church members with a special gift. And you don't have to be one to be used by God.

3. Build a central online community where ALL Adventists (even ones without internet access) could contribute in some way. Like CA, but more web 2.0 (but of course I'd still use CA also).

4. This might seem sort of selfish, but... have our publishing houses publish ebook versions of all their books at greatly reduced rates. I might actually be able to buy more of them.

5. Do away with our black conferences. If people really want to segregate themselves, let them do so in individual churches, not in conferences.

I need to go but I'll think of more later, I'm sure...

[John317]

Aren't Ellen White's writings legitimately referred to as the Spirit of prophecy?

C.S. Lewis doesn't qualify as "the Spirit of prophecy" or the "pen of insiration" because he wasn't a prophet or inspired in the biblical sense.

Ellen White did sometimes use the expression "the Spirit of prophecy" in reference to the Bible prophets, as well as to the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in her own ministry and writings.

[SivartM]

How? Is Ellen White the Holy Spirit?

[Tom Wetmore]

MODERATOR SPEAKING -

If evey time EGW is mentioned the whole topic turns to only a myopic defense of all things EGW or turns into an EGW apologist routine that derails the whole topic down that path, I will move it elsewhere.

Enough said on that topic. Seriously. It is categorically unoriginal and uninspiring for any further original thoughts.

[John317]

I completely agree with you about encouraging members to study their Bibles more. There's no question that all the members should study their Bible's more often and far deeper than we do, but I don't think this means people should study the Spirit of prophecy less.

I would be interested to know more of your thoughts about baptism.

I don't think the black conferences are being forced upon anyone. But if a majority of black SDAs want to get rid of those conferences, then I would favor getting rid of them.

I would definitely favor making our Daniel and Revelation seminars more Christ-centered. I came into the church through a series of evangelistic meetings by L.E. Tucker of the Quiet Hour, and in those we studied the basic doctrines of the Bible, not simply D & R. But it's very important for people coming into the church to understand the prophecies, so I would want to see their emphasis continued, but for them to be more Christ-centered.

I also completely agree with you about health reform, but I would add that the emphasis should be on its relationship to the Three Angels Messages.

[aldona]

Your request for ebook versions is not selfish, and makes perfect sense.

In my capacity as copyright reviewer on imslp.org (see my signature) I have learned the following:

Under US law, a published work is in the public domain (and thus not subject to copyright, and free to reproduce and distribute at will) if it was published before 1923.

This would certainly apply to the vast majority of EGW works under normal circumstances.

However, the EGW estate has ensured that the goose continues to lay golden eggs indefinitely by

(a) continuing to renew, and renew, and renew, and renew the copyrights (even though the original author has now been deceased for 95 years), and;

( constantly republishing material in the form of new cut-and-pastes and compilations which are then treated as new works under the copyright laws because of the extensive editorial work performed to modify them.

Mrs White's desire to see her books "scattered among the people like the leaves of autumn" has gone out the window.

If we followed the same principles with EGW books as we do with making free classical music available on imslp.org (and we are VERY careful, because there are music publishers out there ready to come down on us like a ton of bricks if we get it wrong), then all of them would be available for free to anybody who wanted a copy.

AJ

[Gordon1]

Through a study program, teach all members to use a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and to implement personal Bible study each day.

• Then teach them how to use Wigram's Hebrew and Greek Concordances.

• Then let them establish their own church based upon Scripture research.

[SivartM]

Help people to use their spiritual gifts. About the only thing most churches do with spiritual gifts is give their members tests to find them out. It's like a personality test. "I'm a sanguine ENFJ helps giving preaching!" "Okay, that's nice."

People with similar spiritual gifts should be grouped together and be given something to do. And if the pastor's spiritual gift is not preaching, let someone who does have that gift preach instead. Then the pastor can go... pastor.

[Woody]

Thanks Alex. A good list to start with.

I am just curious as to how you would change prayer meeting.

More prayer? LESS prayer? OR ... Other?

[SivartM]

You're supposed to actually pray at prayer meetings?

[Woody]

HA HA. Good Suggestions about pastors and preaching SivartM. I have to agree.

But, I would not let loose of my pastor's preaching. MY pastor definately has the gift of preaching.

I know ... I hear the preaching every day. TIC TIC TIC. DO NOT REPORT THIS TO MY PASTOR.

[abelisle]

Re: Baptisms

I don't think new baptisms should automatically become church members until they go through a tenure period where they are involved in some kind of service (Too many of our members are passive participants) and they should involve themselves in church activities. If church can be viewed as a family, wouldn't you want to know more about the person you are adopting?

Re: Prayer meeting

They should of course center around prayer but there should be more effort made to motivate the participants with items of interest so that the prayers are more meaningful and relevant not droning and full of religious cliches that can put some to sleep

Alex

[Woody]

I agree that membership and baptism should not be tied together. Membership should be much more. And baptism should be much less. Baptism is simply coming to Jesus. You have little knowledge of Him when you do that. But membership is much more. It's for those that have much more knowledge and know for themselves what scripture teaches. They are then deciding what truth for them means and are taking a stand.

[Jeannieb43]

All good suggestions here.

Re: eliminating black conferences... I think we shouldn't be needing such organization, in this progressive day and age. But to actually eliminate them at this point would cause many black leaders to lose their positions. Throw them out of a job. Not a progressive action, IMHO.

Re: our topheavy organization... I believe the SDA church is topheavy with management types, thus depleting the budgets and removing good talented ministers from the real ministry, that of pastoring the flock in the local churches. I would like to see disbanding of the union organizations, and make the local conferences responsible directly to the GC. But since such a thing would require that all the union officers would need to vote themselves out of their jobs, I predict such a thing will never happen.

A dearly beloved minister/mentor of mine [now deceased] opined on several occasions that he believed before the Lord's return that the SDA Church would no longer exist as an organization. Individual churches would still meet and the Adventist faith will be strong. It's just that we won't have anybody "official" to go to to tell us when, how, why, to think or believe.

I know that if I were myself employed by the Adventist denomination, and if I were still of "employment age," I would seek a different career. We have too many people dependent upon the church organization for their current income, and IMHO it may soon self-destruct. NOT AS A FAITH COMMUNITY, MIND YOU, BUT ONLY AS A FINANCIAL GOLD MINE FOR ITS EMPLOYEES.

[Woody]

I disagree (I think) . If we axe their jobs ... each conference could afford to restore Camp meetings. Now that would be progressive.

[fccool]

I would go a bit further and I would add a bit more transparency and accountability in the organization. Right now, the only time I hear about the Conference is when it's time to send them money. There's this Conference financial black hole where the money goes and the detailed accounts of how it was spent never seem to surface. Who watches the watchers?

As much as I agree with you [ about more Bible...], I think that we have too many "Jesus loves you... and will help you through your trials" preachers that are so bland and generic that you might as well turn on the TBN .

E.G. White had some real down-to-earth advice on Christian living that we absolutely lack... especially as younger generation of Adventists. The first book of hers I've ever read was "Adventist Home". To me it's much more valuable than any other book that she written. Our society washed down Christianity to a "feeling" that you experience when you are blue. We need some down-to-earth pragmatic teaching. Instead we seemed to never pass the "Jesus loves you" type of sermons.

Partially agree [on tbe baptism issue], to the extend that in the end, the membership is not our decision... but God's. He alone sees everything and is able to judge based on the truth and not heresay or appearance.

Full go, but [eliminating the black conferences] will never happen. It's the comfort level, and the history is too young to permit such change. The segregation still existed in many places mere 50 years ago. That's not too long ago. Scars are still pretty deep for many blacks to accept that the racism is diminishing.

Other than the fact that we can spend 15k on a Revelation seminar, and have only $50/month in the budget for community services. I certainly hope that your church is different.

[The health message suggestion is] not as easy as pointing it out. There's more to health than weight and looks. At certain point of time you'll hit the wall, and for some that wall may be still looking pretty chunky. If you look at Babe Ruth, I'd hardly think that the guy looks like an athlete .

You can certainly overdo on health-message issue to the point of pointing fingers.

For some people it's not as easy as eating right, or exercising 3 times a week when they work 60 hours/ week to make sure their children are taken care off.

How about helping people like that with stress factor? Don't hear that too often from the pulpit. How can we take care of the need's of other, when we can't take care of those who are close to us?

At times I think that private prayer is much more powerful than public ones. The reason being is the sincerity factor. I don't pray on my knees with my eyes closed in the corner. Quite the opposite, I like to think that I'm in heaven communing with God when I pray. I highly doubt that Adam and Eve were dropping on their knees every time Jesus would show up in the garden.

I think we need to emphasize the sincerity, instead of the "prayer correctness". Every time I hear people pray in public, it seems like we are transferred to Shakespearean times. The words come up that I did not even know were in English language . Why not stop acting, and just say what's on our mind?

[On the c/v, voting topic] I'd say... get the voting out of the church issues. It's not a Biblical way of doing things. We kind of borrowed the democratic process, but the church leaders are not voted in... they are recognized because their gifts are blatantly evident to everyone.

Casting lots is far more appropriate and Biblically sound than a democratic election, no matter how archaic it may seem.

I agree that there's not enough young generation perspective in the leadership and hierarchy sphere.

I'd say that in our day and age, we should approach evangelism with Creationism evidence in mind. That was a stepping stone for me, and likewise would be for most of the youth indoctrinated in evolution-based origins.

[Kevin H]

I like some of the ideas I've been reading here, good job. My 2 cents worth, non inclusive but some major ideas would include:

1. Getting back into serious Bible study, learinging exogesis and Biblical history. Let's once again be a people of the book and not set up camp where the pioneers fell asleep and turn their progressive tents into perminant temples. Follow the Bible, not traditions. Put a copy of John Bright's "A History of Israel" Aharoni's "The Land of the Bible" the MacMillian Bible Atlas and Abraham Joshua Heshel's "The Prophets" in every home and referenced in our Sabbath School quarterlies.

2. (related to the above) give up Fundamentalism. We are already on the liberal frindge of the Fundamentalist movement and we have to step away from it to defend Mrs. White, let's say that the church made a mistake in 1923 and go back to what A. G. Daniels, W. W. Prescott, Willie White, and the discrased Religion Faculty of Washngton Missionary College were trying to warn us about in 1919.

3. Have pastors be able to study the Bible and not just work 60 to 100 hours a week raising funds and tryng to recrute new members. Yes, that work is to be done, but not at the expense of Bible study as it is with the current work load.

4. Invite the pastors of Non-Adventist churches to come and worship with us on Sabbath. Give them a break from having to constantly lead out, give their familie's a break from being under the constant spotlight of being the pastor's family, but invite them to come and simply worship and relax and maybe learn some new ideas they can either agree or dissagree with, but offer them a place to come and be ministered unto. Ministry Magazine has something like every other issue is focused for ministers of all denominations. We should offer a place for our community pastors to come and just worship.

5. I'd like to see us form a relationship with local synogogues so that if the Rabbi wakes up with say a sort throat on Sabbath that he'd call us to see if we could send someone over to preach.

6. I'd like to see some of our laymenbers who are retired do what Filex Lorenz did: Look for churches that could not afford a minister and become their pastor, he is in his mid 80s and pastoring a United Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ church in Deerborn MI.

7. I'd like to see our members move out into the country and learn country living, but move our churches into town. In the 1970s there was a trend to move our churches out into the country, and here in New York there are about 40 miles between churches with the churches being the Seventh-day Adventist church for that area with people traveling miles to it. I'd like to see our churches be back in town and to not merely be an area church for the Adventists, but to be a church ministering to that community. For the big cities I'd like to see us follow Mrs. White's counsel on how to work the cities.

These are some of the big ones that come to my mind.

[Ambassador]

Silvart I believe Leo Schreven is attempting to do just what you had stated with the online community at goallpower.com. Now I don't necessarily believe EVERYTHING he's advocating but I do think he's trying to be progressive in his approach. Which is something to be admired considering our post-modern affinity to evangelism needs to be "modified" for a new century.

[Ambassador]

Great ideas Kevin.

[Rondo]

We should discuss whether SDAs are in the Covenant Theology camp or the New Covenant Theology camp. The importance here is continuity or discontinuity of the Old Covenant and the Decalogue at the cross. Read:

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ

This would not necessarily lead to worshipping on another day, but would help us all realize who our True Rest is, fulfilled on the cross by Jesus, and would let us know we could have that rest at anytime we needed rest or Jesus counsel. That truly is a Covenant with better promises:

Hebrews 8:6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

[Woody]

Alex. Thanks for this question.

I would just point out that what we might think needs to be changed .... just might hinder His coming. Now .... what the Holy Spirit wants changed is what needs to be changed.

I am believing more and more that prophecy is being fulfilled and time is short. I suspect this GC Session is just a fulfillment of prophecy.

[Rondo]

I'm relatively new here, I guess I don't understand the question Woody. The Bible is allowed to be quoted, yes, no?? Ideas that are main stream like Covenant and New Covenant Theology that can be Googled if one does not understand the concept, are allowed, NO??

[Bravus]

Not sure whether I said this earlier, but if I could change anything about Adventism it would be the people. Not that Adventists are bad people, far from it. But my answer would be the same if asked about changing Australia, my university, etc., etc. It's people that mess things up. Ideas, values and beliefs are pure, and generally good, but their human implementation is always fatally flawed. People (and naturally I include myself as always) tend to be selfish and thoughtless and insecure and judgemental.

Given that I don't have the power to change any of these things... I guess I'd just encourage Adventism, and all institutions, to be humble, and to recognise human frailty, make allowances for it, apologise when mistakes are made, protect the vulnerable...

[Mark Aurelius]

Right on! Well said.

Given an issue (non-theological) currently causing division in our church, it would be good if there were a more professional and thorough-going approach to conflict resolution in place.