If you had the power to make changes in Adventism, what would they be?

[D. Allan]

Rondo, I'm with you and St. Paul 100% on the covenant ideas.

[SivartM]

Watching the business sessions at GC, I was actually very impressed with how respectful all of the delegates were.

[phkrause]

Sounds good, and some day hope to see you representing us as a delegate. :)

[Neil D]

Like Bravus, it's people that make or break a church....

***IF*** I had the power to make changes in Adventism, I would emphasis relationships...The concepts of love, hope and faith are not nearly expressed nearly enough nor understood enough. These concepts need to make a far bigger impact in our daily lives....

The results would be

1] a better understanding and tolerance for new ideas that came from those [wacky?] people

2] a better understanding of organization- Can we say more community and less layers of conferences???

3] a better reflection of just who God is and what it means to be that "child of God"....

These are things that come to mind....I am sure that the ramifications would be rather enormous and too much for any ONE individual to handle.....So, my ideas are rather pie in the sky hopes, me thinks..

[D. Allan]

some very good pie, Neil.

[mrsducky]

There are several independent ministry sites on the web that offer a variety of Ellen White books as downloads for free, including the Conflict of the Ages series. You can also buy a disc for your computer with all her published works and other reference materials for less than $20 from Laymen's Ministries, St. Maries, Idaho.

[mrsducky]

Rondo, Isn't there another thread where those [New Covenant] concepts are being discussed?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'd like to hear sermons about Jesus.

[nuff sed]

www.forestlakechurch.org nuff sed

[whatisthis]

I'm new trying to post here and I see what I posted doesn't quite work the way I intended. I wanted to comment on #4 in a string of things I obviously should have quoted. These were changes someone wanted to make in our present church structure. They decided to do away with all the black conferences.

I said I think we should do away with all the white conferences. All the present positions within white conferences would be dissolved and their present occupants/officers/pastors/whatever would become laity in the present black conference structure. That would solve the problem! (Wouldn't it?)

[whatisthis]

Let's see, maybe I can do this. [i'll edit and show you how it can be done without repeating/quoting. - TW]

[Addressing the points] Alex says he would [change:]

1) Hmmm, [rather than putting administrators back in the fieldas pastors] what about putting them in the field as laity, having them wash feet like Jesus, and bear crosses and things?

2) Maybe if we would all study the Bible more we would all be way more thrilled with the insights of the Spirit of Prophecy, but I can see some people going so far as to make rules about this which might worry me a little bit...

3) Interesting [idea about baptism]. Could we have curriculum vitaes ready to get us approved to be voted into the laity, maybe?

4) Simple! Let's do that. But just do away with the white ones instead. Then all the present white administrators could be back in the field as... Not ready for that? Well, maybe this is not simple yet. A few new sweeping rules like "Out with the black conferences" might not quite do it all. Maybe we'll have to pray about this and ask for the Holy Spirit to help us become one in the Spirit, first.

5) Which parts of Revelation and Daniel could we do away with? The ones that adress a sealing message?

I have another idea. Maybe we could just all actually read the books for ourselves, because if we all actually really studied the Bible for ourselves, prayerfully, it might get exciting. I found out there's stuff in those two books that got strained out and whizzed up and fed to us condensed, which is pretty exciting when it's not turned into a puree'. I think the stuff the original founders presented was supposed to have been on a "more later" kind of plan where they laid some ground rules and the exciting game played out from there. Is it possible that we've stuck with a bare outline too long?

6) Well, my active mind is always thinking of how something obviously good could get ruined by a nice simple law about it. What would happen if someone like Moses was so tired out that a couple of brothers had to hold up his hands for him? What would happen when someone like Jesus fasted and prayed and worked day and night till his Mother and brothers started worrying about him? Isn't it possible that some of the best rules can backfire?

7) [About prayermeetings...] When I was a liddlekid people actually knelt and prayed during prayer meeting. The trouble was, people who were well-padded around the knees and never prayed at home started dominating the thing by droning till everyone else was afraid they were never going to be able to walk again when prayer meeting was over. The solution became "interesting prayer talks". And that did not make prayer meeting interesting because the same people got up front and droned "interesting prayer talks". Could it be that something more like a 12-step program could work? Or maybe a small group plan, but one that was really focused on prayer and.. Wait a minute! Are we maybe possibly already that sort of think-tank right here! Is it possibly possible that what we say here might influence change? Then maybe we are part of church! Yes!

Maybe change isn't coming from new management, but from the Spirit that is calling and hoping for a change to fully ripen! Maybe we could all start phoning each other and just informally praying together over everything, and we'd be so prayed alive that nothing could put prayer meeting out?

8) (What are curriculum vitaes? I'm afraid I haven't been following politics too closely lately.)

9) [About younger delgates,etc.] Could we pair this with number six and make sure nobody gets to be a delegate without sixty pushups at least, and a few backwards flips like Doug Batchelor used to do? And as soon as he can't do them any more he should be banned from being a GC delegate. Well, I know that wasn't your intent at all, but what happens when we start to regulate change can be astonishing!

10) Yep! If you don't have a degree from the Geoscience Research Institute you shouldn't even bother to think about...Oh, maybe that was not it. Oh dear. My poor little legalistic mind keeps making new ways to make cumbersome rules!

[phkrause]

You know what, I agree with you [about getting rid of the white conferences], wouldn't that be a hoot.

[SivartM]

Except we don't have white conferences... the conferences that aren't black conferences are interracial conferences. It would make more sense to keep them.

[Guest]

Amen whatisthis, excellent post!

[nuff sed]

Ah, well said, SivartM.. The "church" structure in the US only reflects the 'culture' of the US... At the present time and under the present circumstances there will be NO changes in conferences. 'nuff sed.

[whatisthis]

No? I respectfully submit that our "interracial conference" is the same one often known in the south as the "white church". It's interracial but it's culturally the other thing from the black church. All the black conference leaders, some very talented and Spirit-led leaders I might add, would suddenly become laity if the solution were to just ex out the black conference. Should they be humble and accept this? Should the "interracial conference" leaders that are the opposite of the black conferences be humble and accept this? Is it possible that there is an option besides such extreme approaches which will create great unity?

[whatisthis]

My question "No?" is to the idea that black conferences are not interrracial conferences and the other conference not known as black is interracial. I'd say there are a smattering of whites attending the black conferences, enough to actually probably label it interracial, but I am wondering if that is the point?

Could it be that it's not important who's interracial, but it is important that two conferences have come into being because of conditions that (hopefully) don't exist anymore. And that as we long to worship together, we need to honor the leading of the Spirit in both?

[Guest]

You're right whatisthis. The interracial conference is known as the white church. And it is very different from the black church. I have been to both.

And yes I think there is an option besides such extreme approaches.

[whatisthis]

My grammar is coming out awkwardly today.

[whatisthis]

What I mean to say is expressed by this part:

Maybe change isn't coming from new management, but from the Spirit that is calling and hoping for a change to fully ripen! Maybe we could all start phoning each other and just informally praying together over everything, and we'd be so prayed alive that nothing could put prayer meeting out?

Is there a way to open the doors between congregations of the two conferences that exist in the same towns, and pray mightily together? Could we text each other and email each other and phone each other with prayers? Could we hold joint vacation Bible schools... Or is this going too far? No, I can't think it is! This is exciting -- could we be just-people in need of God together, both supporting our leadership as it exists, and supporting each other, and maybe eventually the Spirit could then lead a respectful merger... or who knows what next?

[phkrause]

I agree but its a good idea none the less.

[whatisthis]

Well, we could all start praying about answers, I don't have 'em, but seems to me if we understand the problems, then it's easier to ask God how to solve 'em!

[whatisthis]

I am wondering why we have to eliminate either conference? Couldn't we enjoy the fact that we have many different conferences in the North American conference, and that often there are two of them to choose from in the same town?

[whatisthis]

I like this idea SivatM, about helping people use their Spiritual gifts. Could that be part of prayer meeting? Or when and where and how--or am I taking this too immediately and literally? It sure gets my wheels turning!

[Woody]

There are several points that I might have.

One is that we can't afford extra un-needed conferences. We need to reduce for financial reasons.

If we have conferences for the blacks ... what about the Samoans and native Americans etc etc.

We need unity not divisions. There simply is no need for blacks to have their own conferences. Their isolation and elietism is not helpful to our church.

The isolation is hurtful to the church. Why is it that churches can associate ... just because of the color of one's skin?