Self respect or self love - is it a sin?

[Twilight]

As above?

I would ask all to consider this though.

Is there a difference between having self respect as a born again believer and pride (disguised as self respect) as a carnal man?

[karl]

Self respect is mandatory for Christians. Self respect is developed by doing right - by doing things we respect. Pretty is as pretty does.

Quote:

Counsel to One Who Had Lost Self-respect.--"Jesus loves you, and He has given me a message for you. His great heart of infinite tenderness yearns over you. He sends you the message that you may recover yourself from the snare of the enemy. You may regain your self-respect. You may stand where you regard yourself, not as a failure, but as a conqueror, in and through the uplifting influence of the Spirit of God. Take hold of the hand of Christ and do not let it go."--Lt 228, 1903. (MM 43.) {1MCP 259.4}

[Guest]

Amen karl. And good topic Mark. You have always been good about starting a new thread about the topic that the old thread got sidetracked into.

[Twilight]

Self respect is mandatory for Christians. Self respect is developed by doing right - by doing things we respect. Pretty is as pretty does.

Quote:

Counsel to One Who Had Lost Self-respect.--"Jesus loves you, and He has given me a message for you. His great heart of infinite tenderness yearns over you. He sends you the message that you may recover yourself from the snare of the enemy. You may regain your self-respect. You may stand where you regard yourself, not as a failure, but as a conqueror, in and through the uplifting influence of the Spirit of God. Take hold of the hand of Christ and do not let it go."--Lt 228, 1903. (MM 43.) {1MCP 259.4}

Good quote Karl. :-)

[Twilight]

Amen karl. And good topic Mark. You have always been good about starting a new thread about the topic that the old thread got sidetracked into.

Sometimes you have to redirect the river my friend.

Mark :-)

[Robert]

As above?

I would ask all to consider this though.

Is there a difference between having self respect as a born again believer and pride (disguised as self respect) as a carnal man?

Self-love is not self-respect. "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself", yet He didn't abuse His body with the drugs of His day. That last part is self-respect.

[pnattmbtc]

Thanks for starting the thread Mark. Cross posting a couple of things:

Here's an explanation I came across here: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/self-est/howdoi.htm (The whole article is interesting. I quoted the last part of it).

Quote:

Jesus did not command us to love ourselves. He did not say that there were three commandments (love God, love neighbor, and love self). Instead, He said, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matt. 22:40). Love of self here is a given -- a fact -- not a command. We know of no Scripture that teaches that an individual does not already love himself. Paul said, "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the Church" (Eph. 5:29). Christians were not admonished to love themselves or to hate themselves. Self-love, self-hate (which is simply another form of self-love and self-preoccupation), and self-deprecation (possibly a disguise for blaming God for not giving the self greater personal assets), are all self-centered attitudes. Those who complain about not loving themselves generally are dissatisfied with their feelings, abilities, circumstances, etc. If they truly hated themselves they would be happy to be miserable. All human beings love themselves.

From the totality of Scripture, and within the particular context of Matthew 22, the love one naturally has toward himself is commanded to be directed towards others. We are not commanded to love self. We already do. We are commanded to love others as we already do ourselves. The story of the Good Samaritan, which follows the commandment to love one's neighbor, illustrates not only who is our neighbor, but what is meant by the word love. Here, love means to extend oneself beyond the point of convenience to accomplish what is deemed best for the neighbor. The idea is that we should seek the good of others just as fully as we seek the good (or what we may even mistakenly think is good) for ourselves -- just as naturally as we tend to care for our own personal well-being.

Another Scripture that parallels this same idea of loving others as we already do love ourselves is Luke 6:31-35, which begins with "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Evidently, Jesus assumed that His listeners wanted to be treated justly, kindly, and mercifully. In other words, they wanted to be treated according to expressions of love rather than expressions of indifference or animosity. Jesus then goes on to clarify this kind of love as contrasted to the love given by sinners. He says, "For if ye love them which love you, what thanks have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. ... But love ye your enemies. ..."

The kind of love that Jesus emphasized was action-oriented, and was that kind that was selfless and was not motivated by gaining returns. Since it is natural for people to attend to their own needs and desires, Jesus turned their attention beyond themselves.

That kind of love for others comes first from God's love, and only then by responding in wholehearted love for Him (with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength). And, we cannot do that unless we know Him through His Son. The Scripture says, "We love Him because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19). We cannot truly love (agapao, action-oriented love) God without first knowing His love by grace; and we cannot truly love neighbor as self without first loving God. We believe that the proper Biblical position for a Christian is not to encourage, justify, or establish self-love, but rather to devote one's life to loving God and loving neighbor as [one already loves] self.

[pnattmbtc]

Here's another one which discusses the linguistic question asked earlier regarding the word translated "as," here represented as "wJ" (being Greek character challenged).

Quote:

Second, and more specifically, wJ" is sometimes found following a command. When it is so, what verb is to be implied in the wJ" clause? At all times, the indicative should be read.1 That is, the comparison is not of a command to a command, but of a command to a standard that is already being followed. Note the following examples.2

* Matt 6:5—”When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites [are]”

* Matt 6:10—”May your will be done on earth as [it is] in heaven”

* Matt 6:12—”When you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites [do]”

* Matt 10:16—”Be wise as serpents [are], and harmless as doves [are]”

* Matt 18:3—”become like children [are]”

* Luke 15:19—”treat me as [you would] one of your hired servants”

* Luke 22:26—”let the greatest among you become like the youngest”

* Gal 4:12—”Become as [i am]”

* 2 Thess 3:15—”Do not look on him as [you would] an enemy, but regard him as a brother”

* 1 Tim 5:1—”Rebuke an older man as [you would] a father”

* Philemon 17—”Receive him as [you would receive] me”

In conclusion, is self-love biblical? Actually, yes. It is biblical in that it is assumed to be true (cf. Eph 5:29). But is self-love commanded? Hardly. The primary proof-text for such is Matt 22:39.3 And, as we have tried to demonstrate, that text means that self-love is assumed, not commanded. Further, there are numerous texts that suggest that our lives need to be other-directed. The plain meaning of a passage like Phil 2:3 (“regard one another as more important than yourselves”) ought to counter-balance any notion that our focus in life ought to be on self.(http://bible.org/article/self-love-biblical-matthew-2239)

[pnattmbtc]

I think we're all agreed regarding self-respect, and the quote that Karl provided. The real question involves self-love.

I think many read the "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" quote as if it were speaking of self-respect, but this is a new idea, in the last 50 years I think, so this couldn't have been what was intended. The new idea I'm talking about is the idea that before we love others we need to be able to love ourselves. 1960 is the first I was able to see this referenced.

[karl]

Christ didn't tell us to hate ourselves, but He came pretty close when He said we should hate our own lives (in comparison to our feelings for Him.)

[SivartM]

Self-love is not a bad thing unless it means that we love ourselves more than someone, or anyone, else. We can love ourselves and live for others.

[abelisle]

Can we as Adventists have a collective "self-love" as when we label ourselves as the 'remnant church' and when some act and speak with the arrogance of feeling that they and only they have the truth and essentially everyone else is mislead, confused or agents of Satan.

Remember I said "some" not all. This sense of provincialism borders on pride, a form of self-love and besides, "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" John 14:6

Alex

[pnattmbtc]

This question is getting at the Laodicean message, thinking we're rich and increased with goods, when we're really poor and miserable and wretched and blind and naked. This applies to all of us. It's as we recognize that this description fits that we can begin to be healed.

There are a couple of times when this message brought a reformation in our church. First in the late 1850's when it was first recognized that we, SDA's, were the ones to whom the Laodicean message which primarily addressed, and then again in the time of Jones and Waggoner. Unfortunately the message did not have the influence the Lord intended, due to resistance among the leadership, but it will some time.

[SivartM]

Adventists: We're not as great as we think.

[Gerr]

Christ didn't tell us to hate ourselves, but He came pretty close when He said we should hate our own lives (in comparison to our feelings for Him.)

The "old man" or "old self" is not only to be hated and denied, it is to be crucified!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: karl

Christ didn't tell us to hate ourselves, but He came pretty close when He said we should hate our own lives (in comparison to our feelings for Him.)

The "old man" or "old self" is not only to be hated and denied, it is to be crucified!

It has already been crucified.

But I digress!

Mark :-)

[Robert]

Christ didn't tell us to hate ourselves, but He came pretty close when He said we should hate our own lives (in comparison to our feelings for Him.)

Again guys, self-hate is not the opposite of self-love. The opposite of self-love is agape - a love that is not self-seeking.

[Robert]

We can love ourselves and live for others.

The Bible doesn't teach this....

[Robert]

It has already been crucified.

But I digress!

Mark :-)

Only "In Christ"....He condemned sin in sinful man....Meaning He condemned our bent-to-self by taking it to the grave, permanently. But again, that's "in Christ".

EGW states, "There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ."

But in speaking of believers she said, "All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit [attitude] as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness."

Notice that in Christ's life there was never one trace of selfishness, but in ours we are becoming less selfish. That's why we can't be under law because the law, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself" requires only agape love....No love of self (bent-to-self) is allowed. Those who, under law, love self will die. So you can't be under the law.

My point? We are selfish, meaning we are not free of our bent-to-self. That doesn't mean we are living for the flesh fully...that we are not growing.

Again, EGW:

[satan to God] "Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness...."

Keep in mind that EGW tells us that Satan's description is accurate.

"But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies...."

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit [attitude] as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness.

I couldn't find this. Please cite a reference.

[pnattmbtc]

Again guys, self-hate is not the opposite of self-love. The opposite of self-love is agape - a love that is not self-seeking.

This is well stated.

[Twilight]

Does God love me, does God respect me?

I am talking about the "new man".

Not the old man, which we know must die?

Did God love Jesus, did God respect Jesus?

If the answer is yes, then why would it be evil to then have a healthy self worth, when that self worth is based on what Christ has done?

In other words, it seems like the view is being presented that it is okay for God to love me, but I must hate myself?

---------------

Note, we really must differentiate between the new and old man here, otherwise we will be talking at cross purposes.

I do not think anyone is saying the "old man" should be loved.

But what about the new man?

[Robert]

Quote:

All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit [attitude] as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness.

I couldn't find this. Please cite a reference.

(Signs of the Times, Dec. 22, 1890).

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

We can love ourselves and live for others.

The Bible doesn't teach this....

My Bible does: "but love your neighbour as you love yourself. I am the Lord." Lev 19:8 GNT

[Gerr]

As above?

I would ask all to consider this though.

Is there a difference between having self respect as a born again believer and pride (disguised as self respect) as a carnal man?

In a word, no. But if you mean self-respect that does not respect others, or self-love that excludes love for others, yes!