Self respect or self love - is it a sin?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: karl

Christ didn't tell us to hate ourselves, but He came pretty close when He said we should hate our own lives (in comparison to our feelings for Him.)

Again guys, self-hate is not the opposite of self-love. The opposite of self-love is agape - a love that is not self-seeking.

A dictionary defines words in their commonly accepted usage. Please show ONE lexicon that shows that the antonym for self-love is agape. The Greek agape is most commonly translated as love. So what you are saying is not the antonym or opposite of love, you are actually repeating the same word in another language!

The Merriam-Webster Thesaurus has this entry: Love, antonym: hate.

[Gerr]

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Only "In Christ"....He condemned sin in sinful man....Meaning He condemned our bent-to-self by taking it to the grave, permanently. But again, that's "in Christ".

The Good News is that God not only puts His righteousnes into our account when we are "in Christ," "but if Christ is in you, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.....

For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:10,13 ESV.

IOW, the gift of righteousness He provides by grace, He seeks by grace through the indwelling Spirit to make it real in our lives.

But then I also digress.

[Gerr]

Does God love me, does God respect me?

I am talking about the "new man".

Yes, God loves the new man.

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Not the old man, which we know must die?

Yes, God loves the old man too. Did God love only Lucifer? Does He love Satan also?

[Gerr]

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Notice that in Christ's life there was never one trace of selfishness, but in ours we are becoming less selfish.

Merriam-Webster: self•ish \ˈsel-fish\ adj

1640

1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one’s own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others 2 : arising from concern with one’s own welfare or advantage in disregard of others 〈a selfish act〉

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

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That's why we can't be under law because the law, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself" requires only agape love....No love of self (bent-to-self) is allowed. Those who, under law, love self will die. So you can't be under the law.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! It is precisely BECAUSE of sin that we are under the law!!! In order to be released from the law, one must die to the law. As Paul says in Rom 7, the husband of a married woman has to be dead before she could marry another, otherwise she would be guilty of adultery. In the same way we can't be married to Christ until the old man is dead. Otherwise that would be spiritual adultery!

How is the old man/self put to death? Through the new birth through the Holy Spirit. Born again, born from above, Jn 3, a divine seed is implanted in him, 1 Jn 3, becomes a partaker of divine nature, 2 Pet 1, so that he becomes a new creature, 2 cor 5.

As Paul says, the works of the flesh are: " Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21 ESV.

But Paul goes on to say: "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh....But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Gal 5:1622,23,18 ESV.

So who are released from the law? Those who are in the Spirit, obeying in the Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit, and producing the fruit of the Spirit. They may make mistakes, fall short, but "He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Heb 10:14 ESV. IOW, while the believer remains in Christ, and Christ remains in him, God and heaven considers him perfect even though he is still in the process of being cleaned/purified.

[Gerr]

So then, per your rapidnet quote, love for self in the commandment is assumed, a given, and therefore not to be disparaged as something evil if that same love is not exclusively for self but also directed towards others.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Notice that in Christ's life there was never one trace of selfishness, but in ours we are becoming less selfish.

Merriam-Webster: self•ish \ˈsel-fish\ adj

1640

1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one’s own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others 2 : arising from concern with one’s own welfare or advantage in disregard of others 〈a selfish act〉

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Quote:

That's why we can't be under law because the law, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself" requires only agape love....No love of self (bent-to-self) is allowed. Those who, under law, love self will die. So you can't be under the law.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! It is precisely BECAUSE of sin that we are under the law!!! In order to be released from the law, one must die to the law. As Paul says in Rom 7, the husband of a married woman has to be dead before she could marry another, otherwise she would be guilty of adultery. In the same way we can't be married to Christ until the old man is dead. Otherwise that would be spiritual adultery!

How is the old man/self put to death? Through the new birth through the Holy Spirit. Born again, born from above, Jn 3, a divine seed is implanted in him, 1 Jn 3, becomes a partaker of divine nature, 2 Pet 1, so that he becomes a new creature, 2 cor 5.

As Paul says, the works of the flesh are: " Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21 ESV.

But Paul goes on to say: "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh....But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Gal 5:1622,23,18 ESV.

So who are released from the law? Those who are in the Spirit, obeying in the Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit, and producing the fruit of the Spirit. They may make mistakes, fall short, but "He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Heb 10:14 ESV. IOW, while the believer remains in Christ, and Christ remains in him, God and heaven considers him perfect even though he is still in the process of being cleaned/purified.

This is the EXACT same thing God has been teaching me over the last couple of years!

[pnattmbtc]

Thanks. That's a nice quote.

[pnattmbtc]

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Does God love me, does God respect me?

He loves you for sure. He treats you with respect, regardless of whether you deserve it or not.

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I am talking about the "new man".

It doesn't matter. He loves *you*. Not the "new man" part of you, but you.

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Not the old man, which we know must die?

Did God love Jesus, did God respect Jesus?

If the answer is yes, then why would it be evil to then have a healthy self worth, when that self worth is based on what Christ has done?

What's evil is self-love. Let's not bait and switch here!

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In other words, it seems like the view is being presented that it is okay for God to love me, but I must hate myself?

In the sense that "hate" is used in Scripture, yes, of course. You must prefer God to yourself.

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Note, we really must differentiate between the new and old man here, otherwise we will be talking at cross purposes.

I do not think anyone is saying the "old man" should be loved.

But what about the new man?

People should be loved, not segments of people. You love the person, but not the sin. If the person sins, you still love him though. God doesn't wait until we're converted to love us.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

My Bible does: "but love your neighbour as you love yourself. I am the Lord." Lev 19:8 GNT

This isn't accurate. I've posted the linguistic discussion on this twice I think.

[pnattmbtc]

Agape is not a word that can be translated by a single English word, so to make the statement that its opposite is "hate" doesn't work.

Apape is self-sacrificing love, a love which is centered not on self, but on others. It makes perfect sense that self-love, which *is* a love centered on self, is the antonym of a love which is *not* centered on self.

[pnattmbtc]

Robert:That's why we can't be under law because the law, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself" requires only agape love....No love of self (bent-to-self) is allowed. Those who, under law, love self will die. So you can't be under the law.

Gerry:Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! It is precisely BECAUSE of sin that we are under the law!!! In order to be released from the law, one must die to the law. As Paul says in Rom 7, the husband of a married woman has to be dead before she could marry another, otherwise she would be guilty of adultery. In the same way we can't be married to Christ until the old man is dead. Otherwise that would be spiritual adultery!

What do you think Robert means by "under law"? What do you mean by "under the law"? Do you think it's the same thing? I don't. That is, I'd be very surprised if you had the same thing in mind by "under the law" as Robert did by "under law." Did you notice Robert wrote "under law"? (as opposed to "under the law"?).

Anyway, I'd be curious to know what you think this expression means (i.e., "under the law").

[pnattmbtc]

So then, per your rapidnet quote, love for self in the commandment is assumed, a given, and therefore not to be disparaged as something evil if that same love is not exclusively for self but also directed towards others.

[Robert]

"love your neighbour as you love yourself. I am the Lord." Lev 19:8 GNT

It is not demanding self-love....Gerry, you're a very educated man, much more than myself. Why can't you recognize only one command?

[Robert]

The Merriam-Webster Thesaurus has this entry: Love, antonym: hate.

That's Webster...not Bible....Only the Bible defines agape.

[Robert]

Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Not acceptable! You must let the Bible define what it means to be selfish.

[Robert]

How is the old man/self put to death? Through the new birth through the Holy Spirit. Born again, born from above, Jn 3, a divine seed is implanted in him, 1 Jn 3, becomes a partaker of divine nature, 2 Pet 1, so that he becomes a new creature, 2 cor 5.

Pure nonsense....If the old man were dead, you wouldn't sin!!!!

The only thing that changes at the new birth is the mind/heart.

[Robert]

In the sense that "hate" is used in Scripture, yes, of course. You must prefer God to yourself.

To all:

Here's the problem...we are born in iniquity...meaning we are born bent to self. Don't believe me?..see how selfish infants can be, albeit they are harmless at that age.

We belong to a fallen, lost race. That's our heritage in Adam. Paul reminds us that in our humanity "dwelleth nothing good". There's no redeeming qualities in our humanity. Everything we do (outside Christ) is for our own self-interests....Everything!!!!

Christ works through us... He does this by dominating "the flesh" - our humanity poisoned by the love of self. It's not something you can remove by an operation. Our bent to self is down to our DNA. The only solution for our fallen humanity is death. That's why at the resurrection we receive a new, glorified humanity free from all selfishness. The old dies, forever! The direction of our mindset does not change....So we are either in agreement with God's agape, or we are not.

[Robert]

We're born with a love for self, so we can be assumed to have it, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Iniquity. what does it mean?

The root meaning of this word is “to be bent.” As used in Scripture it refers to our spiritual condition.

David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2].

[Robert]

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity. In sin did my mother conceive me."

At conception David's mother passed on to him

1] a life that had sinned...

2] a life that was in bondage to to sin and

3] a life under the curse of the law

By sin I mean the driver...the root of all sinning. Because of sin (singular) I produce sins (plural). The driver to all my sinning is the love of self. Hence everything I do, of myself, is done for my gain. That's our condition...that's why we need a Savior.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

How is the old man/self put to death? Through the new birth through the Holy Spirit. Born again, born from above, Jn 3, a divine seed is implanted in him, 1 Jn 3, becomes a partaker of divine nature, 2 Pet 1, so that he becomes a new creature, 2 cor 5.

Pure nonsense....If the old man were dead, you wouldn't sin!!!!

The only thing that changes at the new birth is the mind/heart.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The old man doesn't get any deader than that.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Rom 6:1,2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

How much plainer can it get? Where in any of these texts does it say we will keep on sinning? If you can't see it in those texts Robert, I doubt if you would see it even if God sent you an angel from heaven to tell you personally. May God have mercy on your soul.

1Jn 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning...

1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning ...

[Robert]

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

our old self was crucified with him [NIV]

our old man was crucified with him [ASV]

our old self was crucified with him [ESV]

our old self was crucified with Him [NAS]

our old life died with Christ [NCV]

our old man was crucified with Him [KJV]

our old self was crucified with him [RSV]

our old man has been crucified with him [DBY]

our old man was crucified with him [WEB]

our old man was crucified with [YLT]

All these translations, except for the for the KJV, have our death when Christ died. Were you as an individual alive when Christ died? No! So Paul is referring to our corporate humanity that died "in Christ" on the cross. Romans 7:4 makes it even clearer:

"You [our humanity] also died to the law [it demanded your death, where?] through the body of Christ. That's why 2 Cor 5:14 says, "One has died for all, therefore all have died"....

All these have one thing in common. Our humanity from Adam died in the body of Christ 2000 years ago. Those statements are corporate. All men...the whole world...died in Christ.

So your quote is off base....I'll look at your other ones next....

[Guest]

What you're forcing it to say doesn't even make sense.

What are you doing up so late?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

How is the old man/self put to death? Through the new birth through the Holy Spirit. Born again, born from above, Jn 3, a divine seed is implanted in him, 1 Jn 3, becomes a partaker of divine nature, 2 Pet 1, so that he becomes a new creature, 2 cor 5.

Pure nonsense....If the old man were dead, you wouldn't sin!!!!

The only thing that changes at the new birth is the mind/heart.

Exactly...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The question is, if we have not crucified the flesh by faith in Rom 6:6, then are we Christ's?

[Robert]

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The question is, if we have not crucified the flesh by faith in Rom 6:6, then are we Christ's?

Yes! Back to Romans 7:22 thru Romans 8:3

[Robert]

What you're forcing it to say doesn't even make sense.

I'm not forcing Rom 6:6....Your old life died in the body of Christ 2000 years.