Self respect or self love - is it a sin?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

When Gerry can explain the following often repeated quotes then he will get the picture.

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

What's there to explain? These are clear enough. The first two describe the character of Christ's followers. The last is a statement related to Christ.

[Robert]

You just repeated your statement. I asked where Gerry made such a claim. You need to quote something from him, not just repeat yourself.

[Robert]

What's there to explain? These are clear enough. The first two describe the character of Christ's followers. The last is a statement related to Christ.

Now follow them to their natural conclusion....Gerry stated that I said the law demanded he sell everything. He doesn't understand and it seems you don't either.

Take the first statement: "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

What would happen if instead of seeking your own wealth you lived so that others would prosper? Keep in mind that "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

[Robert]

What would happen if instead of seeking your own wealth you lived so that others would prosper? Keep in mind that "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

I have your answer:

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” [RH 7-4-1912]

You see if you live a complete life of agape (no self-seeking/self-interests) in this world the result will be poverty.

It's not that the law is demanding poverty - the law demands agape. However, if you live a life that lives to serve...if you live a life where you think not, plan not and live not for yourself, you will experience poverty.

[Twilight]

Quote:

This is the EXACT same thing God has been teaching me over the last couple of years!

Then we are in agreement regarding the heart of the gospel!

I would say the Holy Spirit has led us both into the same understanding.

And if us, then many others as well.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Exactly...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The question is, if we have not crucified the flesh by faith in Rom 6:6, then are we Christ's?

Then there is no question. Gal 5:24 says that they that are Christ's HAVE crucified. No ifs ands or buts. It doesn't say they have figuratively crucified. Or that they have legally crucified, and no longer need to take heed to the law, and no longer need to produce the fruit of the spirit, or need not worry about obedience.

Rom 6:16 have ye not known that to whom ye present yourselves servants for obedience, servants ye are to him to whom ye obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience....

Php 1:11 being filled with the fruit of righteousness, that is through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Also Mark, those people who say it was all done at the cross have to do away with the judgment, and the sanctuary message. For if it was all done at the cross, there is no need of a judgment, because it has already been decided. A judgment would be useless. They say it is just figurative judgment, a formality. A mock judgment if you will.

Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Jesus was not speaking of a mock or figurative judgment here.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Rom 14:10 ...for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Heb 10:26-29 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

(this is also a reference to the fourth commandment. The only commandment that identifies who God is. The creator)

I just want to share this with you Richard and see what you think:

I think the issue is that most think that we being crucified with Christ is only a "legal" experience.

But not an experiential event.

It is a real removing of sin from myself, not just a removal of sin in the books of heaven.

When I by faith accept that I have been crucified in Christ, all of my known sin is removed from me (all confessed sin).

It is not with me, or in me anymore.

Now the devil may come and whisper to me to tell me that sin is still there, but it is deception, it is a lie.

Why?

Because God has promised to cleanse me from all sin.

Consider Eve in the garden, she did not have a "flesh", she did not have "sin" in her, yet satan managed to get her to sin.

How?

By lying to her, by "deceiving" her.

So when thoughts of sin come that I have confessed, I know the source of it and I can reject it for what it is, pure tempation.

The same temptation that Jesus suffered.

Does that make sense?

[Gerr]

Quote:

I enjoyed reading this. I agree with what you wrote, and think you explained this very well.

I'll add just one point to this, which has to do with motivation.

If we are motivated to keep the law out of hope of reward or fear of punishment, that, in itself, is part of the "under law" mentality that Paul spoke against. As EGW puts it, it's not the hope of reward or the fear of punishment that motivates the followers of Christ, but the attractive loveliness of His character. Being "under grace" includes this aspect of motivation as well, being motivated by the lof of God revealed through Christ.

Well said. Amen!

[Gerr]

Quote:

Whose welfare are you primarily concerned with? Your own, right? Your neighbor, if he is lucky, gets the crumbs, right?

You make sure you get all the perks in life, after all you worked hard for your money. That my friend is self-love!

You will never be allowed to take this mentality into heaven, never!. After all EGW states that, "In heaven none will think of self , nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them ." [2T 132]

If, in heaven, I am not thinking of my needs...my mansion...my lawn...my this, my that...then who will I be thinking of? Others!

I'll have that love, "which seeks not her own [wealth], but another's wealth." [DA 439]

I think you would agree that the Bible and NOT EGW should be our basis for doctrine. Right? So then, would EGW go beyond what Scripture says? I think not. Here is what Scripture have to say:

Lev 19:18 " love your neighbour as you love yourself. I am the Lord." GNT

Phil 2:4 "And look out for one another’s interests, not just for your own."

[Gerr]

And as for your quote of EGW:

Quote:

I'll have that love, "which seeks not her own [wealth], but another's wealth." [DA 439]

Here are some other things she had to say:

Our first duty, one which we owe to God, to ourselves, and to our fellowmen, is to obey the laws of God. These include the laws of health. If we are sick, we impose a weary tax upon our friends, and unfit ourselves for doing our duty either in the family or to our neighbors. And when premature death is the result, we bring sorrow and suffering to others; we deprive our neighbors of the help we might have rendered them; we rob our families of the comfort and help which they should have received from us, and rob God of the service he claims of us to advance his glory. Then are we not, in a high sense, transgressors of God's law? {CTBH 12.3}

Our first duty toward God and our fellow beings is that of self-development. Every faculty with which the Creator has endowed us, should be cultivated to the highest degree of perfection, that we may be able to do the greatest amount of good of which we are capable. Hence that time is spent to good account which is used in the establishment and preservation of physical and mental health. We cannot afford to dwarf or cripple any function of body or mind. As surely as we do this we must suffer the consequences. {FLB 227.5}

From these statements, I can only conclude that what she is saying in the DA 439 quote is the same as what Paul is saying in Phil 2:4, i.e. "And look out for one another’s interests, not just for your own."

[Gerr]

Quote:

Then we are in agreement regarding the heart of the gospel!

I would say the Holy Spirit has led us both into the same understanding.

And if us, then many others as well.

Mark :-)

I had similar thoughts as yours at first, but then I didn't want to appear as though I and those who agree with me are the only ones being led by the Spirit.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

You just repeated your statement. I asked where Gerry made such a claim. You need to quote something from him, not just repeat yourself.

1] You don't tell me what to do.

This sounds like you have trouble understanding English. You need to do this in order to answer the question is what I was saying. However, you have free will to just dodge it, as is, unfortunately, your usual custom.

Quote:

2] Ask Gerry for yourself about such a claim!

You were the one who spoke ill of him, so you are the one who, assuming a standard of decency, should establish your claim.

Quote:

Quote:

This is really a negative comment.

How nice of you to point that out....

Responding with sarcasm. Not so nice.

I wish there weren't a need to point these things out. It shouldn't be so difficult to write posts which don't have negative comments against other posters. It certainly doesn't speak well of your theology to do so.

[pnattmbtc]

Now follow them to their natural conclusion....Gerry stated that I said the law demanded he sell everything. He doesn't understand and it seems you don't either.

Take the first statement: "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

What would happen if instead of seeking your own wealth you lived so that others would prosper?

[pnattmbtc]

I have your answer:

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” [RH 7-4-1912]

You see if you live a complete life of agape (no self-seeking/self-interests) in this world the result will be poverty.

It's not that the law is demanding poverty - the law demands agape. However, if you live a life that lives to serve...if you live a life where you think not, plan not and live not for yourself, you will experience poverty.

You'll "share the poverty of Christ." You've misunderstood this.

[pnattmbtc]

It is a real removing of sin from myself, not just a removal of sin in the books of heaven.

Just a quick comment on this. The removal of the sin in the books of heaven occurs *only* because of there being a removal of sin from oneself. That is, the books of heaven simply record the reality of what happens on earth. There's a 100% correspondence. The books in heaven reflect reality; the don't create it.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Our first duty toward God and our fellow beings is that of self-development. Every faculty with which the Creator has endowed us, should be cultivated to the highest degree of perfection, that we may be able to do the greatest amount of good of which we are capable. Hence that time is spent to good account which is used in the establishment and preservation of physical and mental health.

This is the Biblical idea, as opposed to self-love. We have been bought for a price, at great cost, and so have an obligation to develop ourselves, so that we can be useful in the service of God and man.

[Twilight]

I had similar thoughts as yours at first, but then I didn't want to appear as though I and those who agree with me are the only ones being led by the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will only ever lead us into one truth. :-)

If it is biblical and works, then it has to be the truth...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

It is a real removing of sin from myself, not just a removal of sin in the books of heaven.

Just a quick comment on this. The removal of the sin in the books of heaven occurs *only* because of there being a removal of sin from oneself. That is, the books of heaven simply record the reality of what happens on earth. There's a 100% correspondence. The books in heaven reflect reality; the don't create it.

Good point. :-)

[pnattmbtc]

This point actually has many applications. Many acts of God are perceived to be things He does arbitrarily (not "capriciously" but by divine fiat, according to His sovereign will -- "arbitrary" as in the primary definition of the word, not the common understanding of "capricious") as opposed to the results of free will decisions made by others where He simply recognizes and allows the consequences to occur.

[Robert]

From these statements, I can only conclude that what she is saying in the DA 439 quote is the same as what Paul is saying in Phil 2:4, i.e. "And look out for one another’s interests, not just for your own."

EGW is giving what the spirit of the law demands in that quote from DA 439. Those other statements are not in the context of law. Neither is Paul giving the demands of the law in Phil. It's because you have been delivered from under law that you can look out for your own interest without receiving the curse.

[Robert]

Responding with sarcasm. Not so nice.

Being a Holy Joe...not so nice either....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Now follow them to their natural conclusion....Gerry stated that I said the law demanded he sell everything. He doesn't understand and it seems you don't either.

Take the first statement: "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

What would happen if instead of seeking your own wealth you lived so that others would prosper?

This is life of any follower of Christ. This is what it means to be a follower of Christ.

So, like Christ, you are without in a world dominated by self? You, like Christ, can say I have no place to lay my head because I constantly deny my bent-to-self?

[Robert]

You'll "share the poverty of Christ." You've misunderstood this.

Maybe you are having trouble, again, seeing the forest due to those trees. It's very plain...so simple a caveman....well, you know the rest....

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” “So shall ye be my disciples.” [RH 7-4-1912]

Christ had no place to lay His head because there was no love of self manifested in His life. He was the servant of all....He lived to serve, not to serve Himself. He denied our bent-to-self. The result in a world dominated by self-interest? Poverty. Those who walk as Christ walked will experience the same....

[Robert]

so have an obligation to develop ourselves, so that we can be useful in the service of God and man.

Yes...Christ was educated, but He didn't use that knowledge to build Himself wealth. He used it to serve. You have used it to serve yourself and your neighbor. The self-serving part is sin and under law you will never make it to heaven.

[pnattmbtc]

So, like Christ, you are without in a world dominated by self? You, like Christ, can say I have no place to lay my head because I constantly deny my bent-to-self?

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, Ellen White, who wrote the statement you're quoting, didn't sell all that she had. She was an extremely generous woman, don't get me wrong. With all that she wrote, she could have been extremely wealthy, but she generously gave of what she earned. However, she did have an estate when she died. She should know what the meaning of her own words are. She wasn't being a hypocrite, but she clearly did not give the meaning to her words that you do.

It's not reasonable to take a little snippet of what a person writes, and use that as the entire basis of a personal theory.