I am incensed at the Muslims who may stone...

[olger]

So in other words, we should not tolerate religion.

[SivartM]

Is mainstream religion to blame for intolerance of groups coming to steal at garage sales?Or is the Islam religion to blame for this behavior?

If you're upset about people stealing from stores and garage sales (which you should be, of course), then talk about people who steal from stores and garage sales. Obviously the religion of Islam which condemns stealing isn't teaching these people to do those things.

When people are upset about Muslims, most of them are not outraged because in some areas some of them steal from garage sales. They are outraged because they are thinking, "OMG THE MUSLIMS ARE GOING TO KILL US ALL". Likewise, people who say, "No, Muslims are not going to kill us all, get a grip" are not pardoning Muslims who steal from garage sales.

[bonnie]

But when 'true religions' breed it, it's not defined as intolerance, right?

Mpls and St. Paul are sanctuary cities. Those that have come legally and want to be a part of america no matter what religion are pretty well accepted and befriended by their neighbors and co-workers. Those that come illegally or those that do not wish to assimilate and gather and live in large groups are where the trouble comes.They want the freedom of america with the culture of their homeland.American culture is distastful to them and they are very quick to let you know.It is not of a question of religion so much as it is behavior. You may claim to be more tolerant of this kind of behavior but most people aren't

They do not want to be your friend. They do not respond to overtures of friendship.They want the medical,food stamps etc but do not want you as a friend.

That seems to be the case for any race or religion that immigrates here.But we have one of the largest groups of somali Muslims and those that are illegal or those that stay among themselves.

You may think it is the americans that are racist or bigoted.Most are not.

[Bravus]

There is a very long history in the US of first-generation immigrants forming tighter communities. The Irish and Italians in New York is one example, but even the first European colonies on the continent stayed in small areas. (And, incidentally, didn't respond that well to overtures of friendship from the Native Americans either.) It's unsurprising for people in a new land, and the history is that the second and successive generations integrate well.

There are definitely additional issues with Somalis, coming as they do from a broken and wartorn country. Some of those kids have seen and done things we can barely imagine (not unlike the Vietnam vets who came back to the US and, in some cases, struggled to assimilate). They will need extra support and time: but they are refugees, fleeing oppression in their home country.

The problem with all of bonnie's rants is that they are perfect examples of stereotyping. How often do white, 'Christian' people steal from stores and yard sales? But when they do, we ascribe that action to the individual. But if a member of a visible minority does the exact same thing, we ascribe it to the person's whole race or religion.

[Bravus]

(incidentally, those fleeing Somalia, which has Sharia law, are most likely to be non-Muslims fleeing persecution on the part of Muslims. Damning Muslims on the basis of their actions is deeply ironic)

(and, for the hard of thinking, yes, some Muslims do persecute - absolutely. A call for recognising that some do and most don't is clearly *not* a claim that none ever do, and is therefore not refutable by showing that some do)

[SivartM]

One of the weirdest articles I've read recently in our local newspaper (I'm in the southern US, of course) was about a "self-proclaimed Christian" who stole campaign signs in revenge for someone (whom he thought was a supporter of an opponent of his favorite candidate) stealing his campaign signs. I'm really not sure what his religion had to do with it but I thought it was ironic that he and/or the editor thought it was important to the story. It's not often around here than anyone dares accuse a "self-proclaimed Christian" of anything wrong.

[bonnie]

If you're upset about people stealing from stores and garage sales (which you should be, of course), then talk about people who steal from stores and garage sales. Obviously the religion of Islam which condemns stealing isn't teaching these people to do those things.

[bonnie]

(incidentally, those fleeing Somalia, which has Sharia law, are most likely to be non-Muslims fleeing persecution on the part of Muslims. Damning Muslims on the basis of their actions is deeply ironic)

[bonnie]

We have a family from Mexico that lives four houses down from me.

A great family. Worked hard to be able to buy their home.They are having a hard time now because of the economy and he is in construction,but he has sponsered several mexican families.

Two blocks from our street we have a trailer court. One side is very well kept,children supervised and dad is in the home and works.

The other side is a combination of mexican,white and a couple other races. The mexican neighbor will have nothing to do with his countrymen that live there. It makes him livid that they live the way they do as that is what they came here to get away from.Welfare to him is shameful.

Maybe at times instead of it being because of the evil white american some responsibility needs to be accepted by those coming here

[antcreations]

I wonder what muslims will think of our views of prophesy especially the ones in Daniel and Revelation ?

The study on Daniel and Revelation is one of the most interesting experience I have had with my muslim brothers and sisters: The doom of great false religion and the rise of God's (Allah's) remnant in the last days and the hope of Isa's (Jesus) return to redeem his remnant against the anti-Christ and his followers.

“And Isa (Jesus) shall be a sign for the coming of the Hour of Judgment: therefore have no doubt about the Hour, but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.” Qur'an 43:61

[Dr. Shane]

incidentally, those fleeing Somalia, which has Sharia law, are most likely to be non-Muslims...

A lot of Muslims flee Sharia law too. Muslims are a diverse group and many do not support Sharia law.

[John317]

If the Muslims have their way they will bring sharia law to every nation on the planet.

Yes, very true. Not all Muslims can be blamed for this, but it is a fact that as a religion, this is what Islam is all about.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: Shane

If the Muslims have their way they will bring sharia law to every nation on the planet.

Yes, very true. Not all Muslims can't be blamed for this, but it is a fact that as a religion, this is what Islam is all about.

Anyone remember the Israelites. They hated bondage and wanted to be free. How long did it take them to long for what they had run from.

[SivartM]

If the Muslims have their way they will bring sharia law to every nation on the planet.

[Dr. Shane]

The radical, extreme Muslims want Sharia law to be in every nation on the planet. The moderate and liberal Muslims fear Sharia law and often times flee countries that have it. Many of them come here to the US.

Is that easy enough to understand?

[John317]

If the Muslims have their way they will bring sharia law to every nation on the planet.

Originally Posted By: Shane

A lot of Muslims flee Sharia law too. Muslims are a diverse group and many do not support Sharia law.

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Wait... what?

The majority of Muslims do support Sharia law, but there are many Muslims who don't support it.

The religion of Islam is led by the fundamentalist leaders of that religion, and they want Sharia law and are working toward that end.

The Koran, their holy book, teaches this objective.

Have you read it? There are many good translations.

[fccool]

John,

Can you, without going to wikipedia, tell me what Quran really means... and give me the 5 fundamental pillars of Islam from the top of your head? Do you know what Hadith is ? Do you understand the fundamental difference between Sunni and Shia Muslems?

If you can't, then you can't rightly give "have you read Koran" as containing the objective goal of establishing the global caliphate as aspiration for all Muslims ... that's not quite true.

The goal of any religion based on proselytism is essentially spreading that religion. Such is the case with Christianity and Islam. When we look at the common religious law of Islam we tend to look at it from the perspective of "extreme abuse of human rights". But that's not exactly the perspective that one could paint if we tend to look at our democratic establishment. We don't look at it in a way that would paint the criminal (or transgressor) as the one abusing the human rights.

You have to understand the difference between the law that revolves around the statism, and the law which is based on tribal principles. The statism law is a relatively new phenomenon. It is not concerned with individual principles, but with maintaining the state order on global level with minimal damage to the state.

If someone purposefully burns your house down, for example, the common law punishment was death in most countries/religions. Of course, if the act of intent could not be proven, then the victim would have to be re-paid... either in full on the spot, or by direct servitude for a certain period of time. This is the underlying context behind Biblical idea of slavery.

What is the punishment for doing the same in our modern democracy? If not injuries or death occurred... 5-10 years in prison, with possibility of getting out earlier on parole. Who benefits from such arrangement? Does victim? No, in most cases they would not get what they have back... does the aggressor? No, there's no actual "correction" while in prison. We just teach these people that they are criminal, and that's what they end up being upon their release. 62% percent are recidivists.

So, we hardly understand or willing to understand the Biblical bases for harsh punishment and we naturally think that our democratic order is the best and most just order on earth because of our claim of it based on Biblical law, but it's not quite true .

I would argue that enlightened limited monarchy (by appointment, not inheritance) is far better than democracy in our modern societies (second to tribal common law order). Likewise, I would argue that our justice system is infinitely unjust to the victims. The people who end up benefiting from the criminal activity are

1) Lawyers

2) Prison industrial complex

3) The state

The criminals are criminalized further, and the victims are told that the justice had been served.

The point is that for the longest time that we've lived on this planet, the common law as practiced by Muslims today, even in most extreme form, would not be so uncommon. It's only as we enter the later age of corporate statism that we observe more lenient treatment of crime and morality because both yield to corporate profiteering.

To contrast the cultural concepts of imperialism and slavery... slaves in islamic cultures in 18th century have been members of the household... voluntary members. The Ottoman Empire had strict slave trafficking laws to discourage trafficking of African slaves. Colonists in US saw slavery as opportunity for economic gain... thus when they wrote the declaration of independence, they changed pursuit of property, to pursuit of happiness which is a bit vague in MO. It took a war for US to finally renounce slavery, just like it took a war to gain the political independence, something that did not take violence in case of Australia and Canada, just to name a few.

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

incidentally, those fleeing Somalia, which has Sharia law, are most likely to be non-Muslims...

A lot of Muslims flee Sharia law too. Muslims are a diverse group and many do not support Sharia law.

That's the whole point behind the tribal forms of justice. People are free to avoid such subjection by not being a member of the tribe.

It certainly becomes very different in case of women who are uneducated and thus can be potentially abused by men who know that they have no other choice... but that would be once again a western perspective which ignores the overall reality of abuse that's independent of religious affiliation.

If we play by statistics alone:

According to the U.S. Department of Justice, between 1998 and 2002:

* Of the almost 3.5 million violent crimes committed against family members, 49% of these were crimes against spouses.

* 84% of spouse abuse victims were females, and 86% of victims of dating partner abuse at were female.

* Males were 83% of spouse murderers and 75% of dating partner murderers

* 50% of offenders in state prison for spousal abuse had killed their victims. Wives were more likely than husbands to be killed by their spouses: wives were about half of all spouses in the population in 2002, but 81% of all persons killed by their spouse.

Islam does not teach violence against women... quite the opposite. It teaches that women are to be protected. When we look at the cases described in this thread and interpret these as "mainstream Muslim thought" ... there are so many logical fallacies that I don't event want to begin counting.

My point about Richard Dawkins was exactly that.

[olger]

Yes, very true. Not all Muslims can't be blamed for this, but it is a fact that as a religion, this is what Islam is all about.

x2

[John317]

John,

Can you, without going to wikipedia, tell me what Quran really means...

Do you mean what the word "Qu'ran" signifies? If so, the word means "he collected things together" and "he read" or "he recited." So it means a book that should be read.

I don't go by what non-Muslims say about the Koran or about Islam. I go by the Koran itself and by commentaries written by Muslims on the meaning of the text. I have about 7 different translations, together with Islamic commentary.

I took classes in world religions at Cal State University, and these included Islam. I've continued studying the Koran and Islamic literature since that time. My wife and I have been very close friends for about 20 years with a Muslim family from Afganistan.

At the University Church here in Loma Linda, the Sabbath School I attended invited Muslim leaders from the Riverside Mosque to come and share their views with us. Our friends go to that Mosque, and they were at the Sabbath School to listen to their leaders talk about the Muslim religion. It was interesting to see the difference between the way SDAs talked and the way the Muslims talked. The Muslims didn't hide their feelings of dislike for the West and for non-Muslim religions and cultures. The SDAs talked of common concerns and about the love of Christ for all peoples.

Originally Posted By: fccool

and give me the 5 fundamental pillars of Islam from the top of your head?

1) "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is the prophet of Allah."

2)Daily prayers

3) Almsgiving or charity

4) Fasting during Ramadan

5) Making pilgrimage to Mecca.

Many Muslims believe there's a sixth pillar: jihad, or "striving hard".

Originally Posted By: fccool

Do you know what Hadith is ?

I haven't read the whole of the Hadith yet, but I've read parts of it. The Hadith is a collection of sayings of Muhammad. Muslims consider it next in importance to the Koran.

Originally Posted By: fccool

Do you understand the fundamental difference between Sunni and Shia Muslems?

The fundamental difference is that the Sunni is the largest group of Muslims by far, and they believe the successors to Muhammad must be males from a particular tribe, the name of which I've forgotten. They go by the "Sunna," or the recorded behavior or example of Muhammad.

The Shia believe the leader of the Muslims should be a descendent of Ali, the son in law of Muhammad.

Another group of Muslims is the Sufis, who are mystics.

Then there is also Wahhabism, which takes a very literal interpretation of the Qu'ran. It is the primary influence in people like bin Laden and the 9/11 hijackers. It also influences the Taliban.

Originally Posted By: fccool

If you can't, then you can't rightly give "have you read Koran" as containing the objective goal of establishing the global caliphate as aspiration for all Muslims ... that's not quite true.

"Not quite true"? In other words, are you conceding that there is some truth to it?

In the classic Islamic view, there is the House of Islam and the House of Unbelief or War, and Muslims view it as their responsibility to bring the House of Unbelief to submission to Allah.

[fccool]

John, Since you have a pretty good grasp on Muslim faith, how is it that you believe that they advocate violence as means to achieve their goals? It does not quite compute with me from what I understand about Islam. There are extremists group in any religion, including scientific atheism (that's right Richard . So, instead of fighting religion... perhaps we should be discouraging extremism.

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