So, serial killers and murdering pedophiles should be forgiven and no

[LifeHiscost]

If they find repentance, yes! No time now to add a scripture to address those forgiven for the responsibility of taking the life of Jesus for their sins.

Regards!!

[Gerr]

No one is beyond the pale of God's forgiveness. BUT, should Ted Bundy been released from jail because he repented?

Should we place every criminal who claims to have repented outside the prison walls?

[SivartM]

You know, there is an option besides killing them and releasing them... it's called a life sentence.

[Gerr]

Why? The federal gov't and just about every state in the union is bankrupt. The average expense to maintain a prisoner is over $20k per year. That's $800,000 for a 40-lifer. Multiply that by how many lifers in the whole country. And there are starving people, sick people that need medical care, etc. etc.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Why? The federal gov't and just about every state in the union is bankrupt. The average expense to maintain a prisoner is over $20k per year. That's $800,000 for a 40-lifer. Multiply that by how many lifers in the whole country. And there are starving people, sick people that need medical care, etc. etc.

I just read that 32 out of the 50 States really are bankrupt, and more are on the brink. I know my state is very close. And they just spent $150,000 for four bells that were supposed to be hung in a tower....but the tower is not going to be built. Perhaps the State can put the bells on eBay.

[SivartM]

If we kill all other criminals as well, we'd save even more money.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If we kill all other criminals as well, we'd save even more money.

we'd probably have less crime too...

[Bravus]

Yeah, that was my reaction: killing people because they're 'too expensive' doesn't seem like a potent moral argument for breaking a Commandment... I think we need something stronger than that.

As for the thread title, the rub is always in ensuring that the named people are *actually* who dies. (As a side note, it's amazing to me that conservatives, who tend to think neither governments nor judges can do *anything* right, are willing to give them the power of life and death - including over themselves...) Even if we actually agree that people who commit heinous crimes deserve death - which is another argument, yet to be made in other than emotive terms - the danger of executing the innocent should give considerable pause.

So there are (at least) two parts of an argument to be made in terms of the death penalty:

1. Do some people deserve death for their actions?

2. Does society have sufficiently fool-proof mechanisms to ensure that those people, and only those people, pay the ultimate penalty?

That's aside from the issue of forgiveness, because yes, God forgives even serial killers and murdering pedophiles. All they have to do is ask.

[Gerr]

If we kill all other criminals as well, we'd save even more money.

Is that what I said?

[bonnie]

Quote:

That's aside from the issue of forgiveness, because yes, God forgives even serial killers and murdering pedophiles. All they have to do is ask.

Forgiveness does not erase the consequences for one's actions.Those that do face death for their actions generally have ample time to seek forgiveness. All they have to do is ask

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

So, serial killers and murdering pedophiles should be forgiven and no

I'm curious as to the rest of the topic title - it was cut off.

[Gerr]

Yeah, that was my reaction: killing people because they're 'too expensive' doesn't seem like a potent moral argument for breaking a Commandment... I think we need something stronger than that.

Does society break a Commandment for putting to death criminals who wantonly take the life of an innocent human being?

If the willful/deliberate taking of an innocent life especially when done with cruelty is not enough of an argument to terminate the perpetrator's life, then nothing that could be said will satisfy anyone who is against the death penalty.

Quote:

As for the thread title, the rub is always in ensuring that the named people are *actually* who dies. (As a side note, it's amazing to me that conservatives, who tend to think neither governments nor judges can do *anything* right, are willing to give them the power of life and death - including over themselves...) Even if we actually agree that people who commit heinous crimes deserve death - which is another argument, yet to be made in other than emotive terms - the danger of executing the innocent should give considerable pause.

It is stretching the other person's arguments to say that conservatives think gov'ts and judges can'tdo anything right. Gov'ts are established by God to maintain order. Part of that function is to remove from society those that are a grave danger to human life. If there is any shred of doubt about the convicted's innocence, then by all means let every avenue be exhausted to establish guilt or innocence. I am not some blood-thirsty fiend that some may want to paint me to be.

Quote:

So there are (at least) two parts of an argument to be made in terms of the death penalty:

1. Do some people deserve death for their actions?

YES!!!

Quote:

2. Does society have sufficiently fool-proof mechanisms to ensure that those people, and only those people, pay the ultimate penalty?

Yes!!! And those whose guilt has been established beyond any shadow of doubt should suffer the penalty!

Quote:

That's aside from the issue of forgiveness, because yes, God forgives even serial killers and murdering pedophiles. All they have to do is ask.

Even God will terminate the incorrigible!

And the arguments AGAINST the death penalty are?

[Gerr]

Yeah, that was my reaction: killing people because they're 'too expensive' doesn't seem like a potent moral argument for breaking a Commandment... I think we need something stronger than that.

So what's the point of keeping alive those who commit the most heinous crimes whose guilt is established beyond the shadow of a doubt?

[bonnie]

Quote:

That's aside from the issue of forgiveness, because yes, God forgives even serial killers and murdering pedophiles. All they have to do is ask.

If I remember right the thief on the cross asked for forgiveness.

According to the biblical account it didn't do anything to prevent the legal consequences of the day for the thief.It did assure him eternal life I believe.

Samson is another that seems to have paid the consequences of his disobedience even tho he repented. Had to die with the heathen

[Bravus]

Yep. That's what I was getting at. The question asked about forgiveness, and we needed to be clear that God's forgiveness is for everyone. You're correct that forgiveness does not save us from the consequences of our sins and crimes on earth, only the eternal consequences.

[Bravus]

rudywoofs, the whole sentence (which Gerry wrote) was: "So, serial killers and murdering pedophiles should be forgiven and not terminated?"

[bonnie]

Yep. That's what I was getting at. The question asked about forgiveness, and we needed to be clear that God's forgiveness is for everyone. You're correct that forgiveness does not save us from the consequences of our sins and crimes on earth, only the eternal consequences.

It seems some have difficulty believing that those that are not opposed to the death penalty actually believe that.

[Bravus]

Gerry, there doesn't seem to be a lot of point bringing the arguments against the death penalty, since you've already resoundingly rejected them, but after class I'll make an attempt.

I found your confidence in the ability of 'the system' to establish guilt beyond all shadow of a doubt both touching and troubling, given the number of times it has been proved wrong decades later.

[Bravus]

bonnie - nope, not making any comment on those who don't oppose the death penalty. Making a comment on God's unfathomable and limitless powers of love and forgiveness.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'm undecided about the death penalty. I wouldn't want to be on a jury where that was an option.

btw, I've never been called up for jury duty. I'd probably be disqualified anyhow.

[bonnie]

I'm undecided about the death penalty. I wouldn't want to be on a jury where that was an option.

btw, I've never been called up for jury duty. I'd probably be disqualified anyhow.

I think it should be limited and with absolute certainty as to guilt.Charles Manson,Bundy,Dahlmer etc.

Biblically it does not seem that God was opposed to death of some.

Personally I think they suffer more in confinement. So many of the guilty are there because of rape and murder of children or women. That sets them up for some very unpleasant times

[GreatLakesGramma]

Yeah, that was my reaction: killing people because they're 'too expensive' doesn't seem like a potent moral argument for breaking a Commandment...

God's own word on the death penalty:

Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man.

Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man. Genesis 9:5, 6.

The Commandment should be translated "you shall not murder." Newer translations do translate it that way, and even some older ones do. Execution of criminals is not murder.

Jesus did not change this when he spoke of turning the other cheek. A slap on the cheek is nothing more than an insult, not a criminal attack on someone's life.

[Gerr]

I am aware that innocent people have been convicted of crimes they did not commit. There are probably innocent persons on death row right now. I am NOT in favor of executing people where doubt exist. But as a matter of principle, are you opposed to the death penalty even if guilt is established beyond doubt? Bonnie already mentioned a few whose guilt of unspeakable crimes have been established beyond question.

[SivartM]

Should the families of the victims carry out the executions, like they did in the Bible?

[Gerr]

Should the families of the victims carry out the executions, like they did in the Bible?

There are victim's family members that would be happy to oblige. And if nobody wants to do it, then perhaps a life sentence, or maybe have a computer do it.