Christian "belief" is sometimes due to the Stockholm Syndrome

[Twilight]

Is there any situation imaginable where you would consider genocide acceptable?

I do.

Consider the lake of fire.

Those that chose to live in sin have to be destroyed.

Now this would be labelled as genocide with the arguments you have presented above.

Yet many Christians in the world accept that sinners have to be destroyed.

Why?

Because sin has to be destroyed at some point.

Does this make God evil?

God decides when and where to destroy sin and those perpetuating it.

I see that as a loving thing to do.

Trusting that He always makes the right choices.

That is why your argument does not make sense to me.

God has to destroy evil, ultimately in a free will universe, He has to make that choice out of love for everyone else.

[cardw]

Until the lake of fire, what is god doing killing and ordering the killing of innocent people? Why does Hitler get a free pass?

If you're going to intervene with gathering sticks as worthy of death, why let killing millions of Jews off the hook?

It makes no sense.

It's almost like if you kill millions of people god says well done.

And you don't address these problems because you simply don't have a rational answer.

[Overaged]

You have done a fair bit of criticism here; so tell us please, what are these ways of approaching the Bible that are NOT based on fear that you alluded to? I would be interested to focus on that.

[teresaq]

mark, im not going to address your accusations, nor your misrepresentation of what i did say.

i briefly read parts of some of the authors you mentioned that i could find and see no where where they believe that the HS literally resides in ones heart, nor the rewiring idea, etc.

from what i did see they believed in a spiritual application, as we do.

are you sure that is not an idea that you have come up with either on your own or from other sources?

[cardw]

I think it is fairly easy to read the philosophy of Jesus without fear. If the Bible simply had the statement Love Your Neighbor as yourself and the story of the good Samaritan you would have the clearest explanation of an advance in ethics summarized very well.

This is because Jesus establishes empathy as the basis for ethical behavior and one's neighbor is established by how the other behaves toward you rather than race or creed.

If that was the sum total of the Bible it would be genius. As far as I'm concerned most of the rest gets in the way of that message.

[Overaged]

Well the love your neighbor as yourself thing can be extremely frightening if you have certain types of neighbors.

And Jesus was most unethical according to the religious leaders of His day.

I guess you will just have to face it my friend - there is "fear" even in your truth, you know, that stuff that you keep saying you don't really know?

[Twilight]

If God has a right to destroy sin and sinners in the Lake of Fire, then the argument that He should not do it in the Old Testament is really the same argument.

It is saying that God should not destroy sin and sinners and to do so is evil.

If one accepts the logical need to destroy sinners ultimately, then once can then understand that there are times when God has had to directly intervene before then.

So yes, genocide, when God decrees it does make sense.

Perfect sense.

But it is knowing that genocide can be practiced in love, that qualifies the behaviour.

Mark :-)

[cardw]

I guess god didn't intervene with Hitler because he realized the Hitler was really doing an act of love by wiping out the Jews.

This is exactly the type of "reasoning" that proves the Christianity makes people crazy.

God ordering people to slaughter their neighbors and their children and their animals is considered to be an act of love by Christians.

That is why religion makes people do evil things.

[Overaged]

Hitler once said: "Who says God isn't behind me?" It is obvious even to non-Christians that Hitler was not a Christian, so to blame his genocide on Christians is a stretch at best.

[Twilight]

Maybe sin has to be seen to really appreciate how evil it was?

Maybe grace had also been refused by the German Nation?

Did the German nation come under judgement for their crimes at any point?

I think it is very "black and white" to say that "unless God does it this way, which I approve of, then He is not a loving God".

I would find that thought dangerous as it places me in a position where I think it is okay to judge God...

It would mean that I am claiming I know what is best.

How would you have dealt with the sin problem Rich, if you had been in Gods place?

[Overaged]

You don't have to stick your finger into the fire to know if it is hot Twilight! God's dealing with sin is not even close to what genocide is!!

[Twilight]

I originally used the word "genocide" as that was the word that was used in the original charge I believe.

Here is a definition of genocide:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

I realise however that it may have an emotional connotation that was not intended in my responses.

I will use the word, destruction or similar from now on, so as not to cause offense. :-)

[Twilight]

So what is different about God destroying Sodom and God destroying the wicked at the end of time?

Sodom is OT, destruction of the wicked is definitely NT.

[cardw]

You realize that you are advocating that I fear my neighbor to support your point of view.

It gets rather tedious repeating myself on this. I'm not talking about threats to my physical well being. I'm talking about the core motivation one chooses or is subjected to. Fear is useful for a very short time. It is not meant to be a lifestyle.

Obviously I don't believe there is a heaven or a hell so, to me, the threats of death made in the Bible are simply in one's imagination. And it is this imaginary thought that is the core motivator for many Christians.

If Christianity is to value love above all else, it makes no sense that an all knowing god would need the threaten us with anything. The only thing that makes sense is that men have discovered the powerful nature of using fear to control other people's behavior. And creating fear, even imaginary, has the same effect as a real threat if you can get people to believe it.

[cardw]

Mark,

You haven't answered the question I posed.

Why did god intervene with a man gathering wood on the Sabbath and ignore intervening with Hitler.

Which action created the most suffering? (I can think of no suffering at all resulting from gathering wood.)

[cardw]

Don't change the word. God ordered genocide period. He ordered the destruction of entire nations based on race and belief.

And since god couldn't seem to carry this out himself, he had the Jews do it.

And in the end god does order the destruction of an entire group based on belief.

This is exactly the definition of genocide.

[cardw]

It doesn't make sense that destruction and punishment would be the best idea an all knowing god could come up with to solve the problem of suffering.

I don't think anyone has established that there is such a thing as evil.

There is suffering, there is mental illness, there is immaturity, and there is ignorance. All of these can cause the same effects as what you would call evil. How would you determine the difference?

Destruction is the solution of the simple minded. It's a knee jerk reaction.

[Overaged]

You seem quite convinced, cardw, of your stance against Christian beliefs. And as Christians; we have to leave you to it, but God's desire towards all of His creation are thoughts of peace, and being at-onement with Him. This is still possible for guys like you & I you know for the Bible tells us in Eccl 9:4 that as long as we are alive there is hope for us in Christ, because even if we are a real dog, a living dog is better than a dead lion - meaning we all have the same hope outside of ourselves, in Christ, as long as we are still breathing... This may not be what you want to hear right now; and it may not "prove" anything to you at this point in time, but I used to sit around and drink beer, saying all the things you do about Christianity, and then some. I was never happy then, because I was depending on my own steam; and when my steam ran out because of a serious injury/accident; I thought for years that that the one set of footprints I could see looking back across that part of my life was mine. And so I said all these things you do now. But I didn't really believe them. After over a year of terrible suffering in the hospital; I realized that those footprints - only one set, making me think I was alone, were the footprints that Jesus left when He carried me through these dark times. Even while I sat in darkness the Lord was my Light. And I proudly take back all those things I used to say about Him; for Jesus is a loving Lord, and my compassionate friend. I could never just unbelieve everything He has done for me, because of anything you say here. Jesus cares. I experienced this personally.

[cardw]

This idea that if I challenge the description of ethics in the Bible is challenging god is simply a way to avoid thinking about these hypocritical ethical dilemmas presented by a god ordering people to kill innocents. You are making a god of the words of the Bible as understood by you. In actuality you have made a god of your own mind's understanding of the Bible and your choice to give the Bible a god like authority.

The only way I have of preventing the same thing is to say that I don't know. I have had this conversation with myself a long time ago and I came to realize that my fundamentalism was extremely arrogant. I did the same thing as you have done. When I couldn't defend a position I would imagine that some evil intent was at work. Because, I was taught that Satan dwelled in the hearts of all of those who opposed Adventism. So everyone who was against us must have some evil motive at work. (Those clever evil people must be up to something.)

It's simply not true. I found out that many times the honesty and integrity of those who search for truth outside of Adventism is far superior to what I was taught. And I studied what I thought was the best source. Ellen White and the Bible.

The standard for truth is much higher than either Ellen White or the Bible and if this standard is not met then the only other option is to admit that one does not know. In the attempt to be right emotional honesty is often sacrificed. And without emotion one cannot exercise empathy, which I see as a central theme of the message Jesus presents. It may explain why many Christians have a difficult time being rigorously honest.

When I point out the fact that god in the Bible orders the murder of innocent children I'm no more passing judgment on god than if you would disagree with the Koran and its calls to violence.

The issue is that you have no rational ethical explanation for god ordering the murder of innocent children by the Jews. In some cases the girls who were virgins were made to witness the murder of their families and then were required to "marry" their oppressors.

If there is evil, it is the justification of such behavior as being loving.

[cardw]

Overaged,

It is not my attempt to take away what has obviously been a transformative experience for you. I believe you when you say you had a transformation.

Many times suffering itself initiates a re-evaluation of our priorities as one contemplates the shortness of life and the smallness of our existence.

Christianity has certainly been successful for many in answering this need. It has, along with other belief systems, also robbed people of transformation.

I have seen people transform with many forms of this same type of encounter. It does not require the name of Jesus or Buddha or Krishna or Allah or any multitude of names for a higher power. Those names may be helpful depending on the background of the person experiencing these transforming moments.

In reality I am pointing out those elements of the Christian belief system that shut down this possibility for transformation. In fact I have found the same elements of fundamentalism within almost every type of life view.

I am a very reasonable person. I hold many of the same values as you do. I love to participate in the healing of people's lives. I have studied this process my whole life and I know what works.

I don't have everything down and I certainly am still learning. To me, this fundamental approach is not only arrogant, but it freezes people in the same place their whole lives because they loose the capability to see things in new ways which is essential to human development. Because, one simply cannot know everything. It is the best method that I know of within the limitations of being human.

[Overaged]

Agnostics and atheists have a long history of presenting arguments like this in an attempt to somehow discredit either the Bible, or God or both. I have never been bothered by such accusations because I know they are not what they seem.

I don't feel a real need to "defend" a lot of my beliefs, and this is because of scriptural precedents set before us where the Bible declares many of these things which are evil; but it offers no excuses, no defenses, and no proofs. The Bible doesn't even really make any serious, organized attempts to "prove" God. It just declares.

There is a reason that the Bible doesn't explain or prove much of what it says. If we didn't need anything explained to us and we knew all the 'right" answers to all of the questions you present, there would be no need to trust God. We could just trust ourselves, and save ourselves. I have learned through some of my terrible trials that when I allow myself to trust God; and when I search for Him with all my heart; then I see Him as Someone who is loving, and who cares. I have spent over a year in hospital with terrible pain and 7 years following with many painful treatments and surgeries to patch me up; and if anyone had a reason to say about God the things that you say here; I guess I would. But even while I sit in darkness; Jesus remains my Light and my Friend.

[Overaged]

This is my whole point cardw; it is never "Christianity" that "robs" people of anything like what they would need to become a whole person; and to become Christ-like. The name [character] of the Lord is a strong Tower; and there is a reason that the righteous run to it and are safe. (see Prov 18:10).

[cardw]

All I have to say is that faith is not an excuse for ignorance.

It is not a virtue to stop thinking and questioning. There are so many times in history where there were outcries against anything new because it was bad. If they prevailed we would have never abolished slavery in this country, gained women the right to vote, made the advances we have in science, and host of other bodies of knowledge that have relieved a lot of suffering.

[Overaged]

That is correct; faith is not blind. But sometimes; it is also NOT a virtue to question the obvious; how that God is good. (all the time).

[cardw]

It is not obvious to me that the god of the bible is good. In fact is obvious to me that the god of the Bible is crazy.

Obviously I don't believe that god exists, but there is no way to reconcile all the different stories into one god of love. I've tried, and I can't do it.

I have had to admit that I was wrong about the god of the Bible being good and that was not an easy thing to do.

It is easy to show because the god in the OT behaves so poorly.