Christian "belief" is sometimes due to the Stockholm Syndrome

[Overaged]

Actually, in order to answer your question; I do need your definition of nature; or I would not have asked you for it. Perhaps there is a reason you are scared to answer?

[Overaged]

I know it would suit your "cause" to have the whole world think that Christianity produces crazy people; but so many have gone before you and tried to do the same; and without exception, all have utterly failed. Your anecdotal fairy tales; about the "evils" of Christianity just do not show anyone anything that they need.

I have mentioned before to you that the so called Christians which you blame for so many evils and ills are not actually Christians. So that kind of blows your case out of the water and into the fire.

A true Christian is both loving and lovable. And I know lots of people like that. Of course; you will be likely to say that one does not need to be a Christian to be loving and loveable; but Christians see all right impulses as coming from Christ because that's what the Bible tells them. What or who tells you your "truth?"

[doug yowell]

Nonsense. What I stated is actually stated in the Bible. Are you afraid to answer the question?As a rational human being why not entertain some other possible solutions?

[cardw]

I'm not scared to answer. I just don't want a tangent on the definition of nature.

If you want my answer, even though it's irrelevant to the question, here it is...

Nature - The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world.

Now answer the question...

What do YOU think causes these tragedies?

[cardw]

Your "what if" is not in the Bible.

As far as rational explanations, I'm willing to entertain any rational explanation. The Bible doesn't happen to offer one.

[cardw]

Nobody tells me my truth.

What I determine to be true at any moment is based on observation. I may have a lot of ideas of what might be true, but unless I see it demonstrated I am very willing to say I don't know.

I know when something isn't true. It's easy to see when something doesn't do what it claims.

That is a method of navigation. I don't claim to have a truth with a capital T.

[Overaged]

So your observations tell you your truth? Wow. Only what your mind and eye can see. But then I knew that before I asked you. I just didn't want to take the words out of your mouth.

[cardw]

No, my observations tell me what is true for the moment. That is really all any human has.

I'm not sure what you are using outside of what your own mind or eye can see.

The problem is that you don't admit that you don't really know. I do.

[Overaged]

You talk like you do know with every post here; yet when someone tries to examine anything you say too closely, then all of a sudden you don't know. And then you justify that approach by saying atleast you admit it? Absolutely amazing. Your "truth" changes like the chameleon with every different moment and mood.

[Twilight]

Not at all.

You seem to want to state that God is some type of butcher with a mixed up personality, if one accepts the Biblical definition of God.

What others are saying, is that they do not agree with your assessment.

Can you accept that you might have it wrong?

[Overaged]

The salvation of humankind does not result from a divine afterthought or some sort of crazed improvisation made necessary because of an unexpected turn of events after sin arose. Rather, it issues from a divine plan for man’s redemption formulated before the founding of this world (1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:3, 14; 2 Thess. 2:13, 14) and rooted in God’s everlasting love for humanity (Jer. 31:3). I am not sure how anyone can find "fear" in this. In my case; I lived in fear every day (in the drug world) until Jesus came into my heart.

[Twilight]

I also lived in fear of the future or the fear of no future.

Until I found out what the future held for me, if I took hold of Jesus' hand.

I do not find Christianity at all fearful.

As long as I trust in Christ and do not look to myself to "perform" what can only be performed in Christ's strength.

[Twilight]

Negativity has its effect over time.

Little thoughts gather in the mind and before you know it, homosexuality is ok, evolution is viable and the Bible is one big "parable" that is useful for moral guidance in some areas, the SOP is just a nice collection of uninspired writings and the Sabbath is just a choice.

This is why we have to on the one hand allow God to give us love for negative people, but on the other hand, to watch everything they say and compare it to the scripture.

Unfortunately, some make friends with the person and their error, rather than the person alone...

[Overaged]

Every person is free to choose what power they will have to rule over them. This is the opposite of fear. Well; depending upon what power you choose.

[Twilight]

I think sometimes people have one experience of Christianity.

If it is negative, they then go to the bible and look at everything negative they can possibly find, to support their experience.

But often what they experienced was not Christianity.

To most of the world the true Christian experience is a "mystery", that they never find. This is also true of most Christians.

But despite the often loud cry of Christians not practicing Christianity, or the loud cry of Christians experiencing a counterfeit of Christianity that they have rejected, there is the quiet voice of those that have found the "mystery" of Christianity.

They have found a walk with God.

They have found the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

They have found obedience in Gods strength.

And they are the ones that should be sought out.

So many times people get the wrong idea about Christianity because they have seen the wrong "christians" in action.

I do not seek out those that do not seem to be having any success in their walk...

I personally seek out the accounts of the Christian greats that did walk with God.

And I listen to what they have to say...

[doug yowell]

NO,Rich, the problem is that you admit that WE don't really know that what we think we really know we really don't know though you don't really know what OUR mind's eye is really seeing and telling US what we know is true at the moment.And if you're not really sure what we're using to know what we don't really know even though we think we know it's true then how can you really know for sure that we really don't know??Maybe what we're using knows more about what is true than our own mind or eye can see.Know what I'm saying?

[Twilight]

That is why I listen to the following:

Peter.

Paul.

Ellen White.

Jean Guyon.

Brother Lawrence.

Andrew Murray.

Hannah Whittle Smith.

Jim Hohnberger.

Etc.

Because they found that walk with God.

I do not listen to those that "do not get it".

What is the point in that?

What can they possibly teach me?

[doug yowell]

Sure it is. But even if it wasn't the what if is both rational and a viable option to ask of such a horrible being as you have created in the Bible.Of course, I still don't understand how you can be so hateful towards a being that you are certain cannot rationally exist in the first place.That doesn't sound rational to me.

[cardw]

You can "maybe I know" and "maybe I don't know" all you want and you still haven't addressed my point.

This last post you have made is so convoluted I don't even know how to respond. LOL

All it proves to me is that nobody knows. LOL

[cardw]

Disagreement is not hating.

Look Doug, if you would address my points instead of making stuff up about me this conversation might move forward.

What it tells me is that you don't have a rational response and you have to resort to making stuff up or attack my character which irrelevant to the truth of what I present.

It will work far better to simply discuss ideas and not me.

[cardw]

Mark,

By stating that you were fearful and this caused you to turn to Christianity you are admitting that the choice to be Christian was based on fear. That's what I have been saying all along.

The whole nature of the Stockholm syndrome is when one is confronted with irreconcilable fear one makes one's kidnapper a good person.

NOT ALL, but some Christians exhibit this tendency to think it's fine that god ordered genocide in the Bible. I think this is because they are afraid of what god will do to them if they are critical of the terribly violent things god ordered in the OT.

[Twilight]

But I was an agnostic that lived in fear Rich...

So what agnosticism offers is just fear perhaps?

After all, that was my experience of it, so it must be true? :-)

[cardw]

Being a Christian doesn't always mean that one bases their life on fear. When I read the Bible literally there is no way around the inconsistent violence of god, is my point.

There are certainly ways to approach the Bible that don't have to be based on fear. Those ways either have to approach it more as a historical narrative of what PEOPLE used to believe or they ignore passages in a variety of ways or they use forms of special pleading.

The same has to do with agnosticism. Only agnosticism has no doctrines. It certainly can be frightening to not know, but that is not due to agnosticism, but the individual's perceptions and feelings about not knowing. You and others have stated that Christianity helps you deal with the mysteries of what happens after you die.

If Christianity helps you to function without fear, great. The Stockholm syndrome doesn't apply to you. You may dissemble the violent actions of god in the OT in different ways. The fact still remains is that god in the OT ordered violent actions that would be considered evil if done by anyone else.

[Twilight]

I do not agree.

Is it possible to do violence to someone out of love for everyone else?

What would you do in this scenario:

Hitler is just coming to power.

You get to visit the future and see what he is about to do.

Then his right to a future is placed in your hands.

Do you:

A. Do nothing.

B. Prevent him from doing what he is about to do.

C. Something else.

Which of the above would YOU do in this situation Rich?

Mark :-)

[cardw]

Why do we have to deal with what ifs when we have the narrative already stated in the Bible?

Why didn't god kill Hitler before he came on the scene. Why didn't god prevent Hitler from doing what he did? Why does god need me to do the killing and preventing?

Maybe it's because there really isn't a god there?

The reason you keep presenting these unrelated "what ifs" is that you have no good reason for genocide or god ordering the Israelites to participate in that genocide.

You also have no good reason to stone someone for gathering sticks on the Sabbath.

You also have no good reason for many of the death penalties handed out in the OT by this so called loving god.

I believe this need to defend these horrible actions by the god of OT is because many Christians are afraid of what might happen if they don't.

It also might be because it's very fearful to recognize that we really don't know.