Christian "belief" is sometimes due to the Stockholm Syndrome

[fccool]

The issue is not about "equal treatment". The issue is a swing from violence to non-violence, which is essentially 180 turn in ideology. In one case, you have punishing people immediately for their shortcomings. In other case, people are punished after death. In both cases they are resurrected and punished ... in case of the first one... these get punished twice. First by stoning, then by resurrection and burning. Makes sense?

[skyblue888]

Wow Cardw and fcool, if what you are saying is what we are left with, as far as the God of the Bible is concerned, then we have no hope. Who would want to worship or serve a God like that?

I believe if Jesus was here, He would say to many of us as He did to the Jews, "You understand neither the Scriptures nor the power of God."

As far as "burning" is concerned at the time of the second resurrection, the fire will NOT come directly out from the Lord upon the unsaved. The Lord will not interfere with the wicked when they turn upon Satan and his evil angels to make them suffer for what they have done. During this gigantic battle, by the use of their powerful weapons, they will cause the earth to tremble and fire from beneath will unite with fire from above (volcanos) and the earth with everything upon it will be consumed.

Ellen White was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way, they place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they chose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them.

At the time of the executive judgment, after the thousand years, Satan and his angels will get a taste of their own medecine. This time it is them that will be left at the mercy of those whom they had deceived. And these will turn upon them with the fury of demons. God will not interfere.

sky

[phkrause]

Interesting sky, have never heard it put that way before.

[skyblue888]

Thanks pk. God bless.

sky :)

[cardw]

sky,

The only reason we would have no hope is if you accept the narrative that we need to be saved. I happen to find a lot of hope in world where there is no god doing punishing. I observe that people change and improve. They may not be perfect, but what is perfect?

The challenges of life are instructive and I have learned to be thankful for these challenges because they often are what make life meaningful and help me mature.

As far as life after death I have found no evidence that anyone really knows what happens. I suspect that there is some form of afterlife or reincarnation. Reincarnation actually has the most evidence, but even that is not all that clear.

The fact that god allows suffering and revenge type violence by others doesn't really improve the situation. There is no point within the teachings of Jesus to do this. I would think that the lessons of life lived would be sufficient to convince people they don't want suffering any longer.

[fccool]

Sky,

I've been for some time trying to reconcile many acts of the past and the future as "God does not directly does something... he merely lets the natural cause of action go". What you've said has no weight in Biblical narrative, nor in E.G. White's writings. I could very easily demonstrate it to you have it not be a "no quotes" forum.

I don't believe that the real God is a God of violence, but that's not the God I see in the Bible... especially in the OT. Here's my simple reasoning.

1) God of the Bible has unlimited power and resources, yet He decides to use violence as a solution for the problems of humanity... it's would seem to be nothing more than a ancient human perspective on God that we not dismiss with "God loves you".

Here's the deal... and I'll put it brutally honest and plain to you. I expect my wife to be faithful to me. That's a given. I encourage her to have better relationship and understanding of me, to stay healthy, and to be a better human being.

1) I don't expect her to sing songs about how great I am

2) If she decides to leave me, I would still help her out in times of need or jump to save her from oncoming train.

3) I won't think of her less if she ate shrimp or pork, neither I would condemn her to death for disregarding my desire for her to be healthy. That would be self-defeating.

4) I would not have a long-distance relationship with her where she's the only one talking on the phone... and all I do is to either fulfill or not fulfill her request.

5) I would not make her pay for her own mistakes so she would learn a lesson... I.E. letting her hand being blown off because she thinks it's fun to hold a large firecracker in her fist.

6) And I would certainly not have my son dying so she would live. She would not want that! What honest human being with a drop of integrity would want that?

I'm merely a human being. Not the best one at all. The way Bible describes God... is by lowering him to human level... at times lower than human level. It justifies genocide by way of "God told us to". It justifies so many things that we merely dismiss today as "God is love" Jedi mind trick.

Perhaps there is an explanation for the bizarre violence on part of omnipotent God - the God who can easily find alternatives apart from violent solutions... like education... improving living conditions of humanity. Yet, I find it much easier to believe that such violent God is an attempt by ancient Israel to reconcile their history and natural events with their religious views.

The paganism in its primitive form originates with the attempt to explain natural events by means of either approval or disaproval by God. I.e. if a nation is "right with God", then He rewards them with blessings of harvest and good weather. If the nation is angry with God, then he punishes them by taking the blessings away and by letting the disaster roll. In most cases a person can be chosen to pacify god as a substitute for the entire nation... so that person becomes both the curse and the hero.

In almost every culture they've had "scapegoat" rituals where they chosen a person to hate, and then sacrifice him/her to the gods for the sake of the good of all. That's ancient history.

The Biblical God is described in a very similar manner. God is angry, so he gives directions on how to apeace him by animal blood and etc. At its root is a very primitive form of human paganism that God decided to act through. Why?

It's very easy to sterilize religion... but these issues have to be talked about and addressed.

[wayfinder]

fccool, be fair in your judgment of God and your analogy of your wife. If your wife had a different lover every night and was dishonest with you and lied to you, turned her back when ever you spoke to her. If she said to you, keep supporting me financially and keep a roof over my head and food on my table, but let me go on doing what ever pleases me, you may not be so understanding. Before you stand in judgment on God you really need to understand things from His perspective, and that is, all knowing, all powerful, eternal. God loves truth and hates lies and He loves those who love and practice the truth and hates those who love and practice lies.

[see Isaiah 1:13-20.]

[fccool]

wayfinder,

I would simply divorce her, BUT I CERTAINLY KNOW I would not seek to violently punish her. So, Im certainly being fair here. It's very easy to throw "you don't understand from eternal" idea. It's impossible to understand from eternal, so there's no need to demand it. I can only understand from human perspective... and from human perspective ... eternal God doing violent things does not make sense.

I think you need to be fair too about addressing my point. I have a face-to-face relationship with my wife. If I had her come and listen to my messages for her through a third party... what kind of "personal relationship" is it? I do desire a personal relationship with God, yet I don't have it. I'm honest. No matter how much I've prayed. No matter how much I wanted it, and no matter how much I've read the Bible... that's not a personal relationship. So, why call it that?

In your comparison, you mentioned my wife cheating on me consistently. That would imply that we are married and loved each other. Biblically, humanity is born without knowledge of God. They have to be told. So, it's the case of an arranged marriage, where my wife does not even know that she is cheating because she wants to love the guys she thinks are attractive. If I walk over to her and say... "what are you doing"? She has every right to say "Who are you?"

Adultery comparison makes case in Judaism terms. God does take them out of Egypt. God does provide for them. It does not make sense in terms of generational humanity, where God has every way to make himself known, and he decides to do it though very fragmented penmanship of ancient authors.

Now, I have nothing against real God... just the way you describe Him to be.

[fccool]

While we are on the subject...

Name me one terrible and wicked thing for which an ordinary law-abiding human being would have to be resurrected and die a terrible death of burning as a punishment for that thing?

The passage you've spoken about seems to mention wicked quite a bit... yet I don't find my non-Christian neighbors particularly wicked. I find them fairly nice and charitable actually. So, I certainly would like to know what would warrant for them to be resurrected and burned in brimstone.

[wayfinder]

Who is to say that any of your neighbors will be resurrected in the second resurrection! In Revelation 7 John see a multitude that no one can count. I see here that God is saying that the number of this multitude is not predetermined it remains to be seen how many this is. I seriously doubt that any of your neighbors are offering their children to demons and dedicating them to gods of every discription, which is what the people were doing in the land of Canaan prior to the Isrealite conquest. God is just and fair and righteous, if not, life on this earth would have been a distant memory long ago.

[wayfinder]

God is a God of justice and understanding, He acts in righteousness always. If He were to act violently, apart from the law, He would Himself be unrighteous and that is impossible for Him to be.

God was with the Israelites visibly from the time they left Egypt to the crossing of the Jordan river forty years later. At Mt. Horeb, the Israelites asked Moses to ask God not to speak so they could hear Him, because they feared for their lives. They had Manna six days a week and water from a rock. Their clothes did not wear out and they did not get sick. until they refused to enter the promised land, then God withdrew His protection, briefly. The first generation did not enter the promised land, except for two. Even Moses was not allowed to enter because of his unrighteous act. It is understood that Moses is now in heaven so that should say someting about the justice of God. The two, of the first genoration, who did enter the land did so, because they were the only righteous ones of that first generation.

[fccool]

wayfinder,

You just referenced Isaiah 1 as a reason for the wicked to be punished. You don't think my neighbours are wicked because they don't sacrifice to idols... etc... etc...

Hence my prior question to you.... what warrants the punishment of second resurrection and death. What would my neighbors have to do to "cross the line".

The obvious problem becomes that most of the Christian world, including the Adventists preach that the sin of "disbelief" is in fact crossing the line enough to warrant it. Do you agree or disagree?

[fccool]

wayfinder,

What would you think if the God of the universe would tell you... I have this house prepared for you. All you have to do is to get in it and kill every one occupying it. These people are drug dealers and crackheads. Don't disobey me. Kill every one of these people.

What would you think of such God? Do you really think that's the best way to give you a house?

[Guest]

I'm sure God would have a good reason if He told me to do it that way. So I would take that jawbone of an ass that I keep hidden under my bed, and go on over there.

[cardw]

Richard Holbrook,

The point is what possible reason would god have to do it that way?

[wayfinder]

Try to look at it from God's reality. God knows whether the offer of mercy to those you discribe will cause them to repent or remain unrepentant. The account of Jonah, whether you belive it happened or not, shows that God will not bring destruction on those if they change their ways. God told Jonah to go to Ninevah and tell the populace that God was going to destroy the city because of wickedness. The population, from the king on down to the slave, asked for forgiveness and God forgave them, much to the chagrin of Jonah.

[cardw]

If god knows who is going to repent or not still doesn't justify god asking people to kill other people.

I'm not sure why an all knowing god couldn't figure out a better way to carry out his punishments besides asking his people to do all the killing.

If god is supplying life, just stop the life support.

What this does indicate is that there probably isn't a god doing this in the first place. This is simply a narrative placed on top of typical human behavior trying to justify it by saying, "God told me so."

[skyblue888]

cardw, I believe we fail to understand the times and the circumstances when God gave instructions to Israel to slaughter their enemies, forgetting that they had elected the sword among themselves. This meant that they still wanted Him but they did not have enough faith to allow Him to protect them without having to use the sword. God walked with them the second mile if you will and His instructions were in harmony with their way of doing, not His way, until they would see that their way was not His way and that His way was the best way. As far as His way is concerned, truth and love are the only means used by Him in the controversy with evil.

sky

[skyblue888]

In the case of Jonah and Ninivah, the message did not mean that God would directly destroy them if they failed to repent or obey Him, but that if they did not allow Him to save them from their evil ways, He would have no choice but to abandon them to themselves and to the malice of Satan who is the destroyer.

sky

[cardw]

What's not to understand about nation building? If someone has land that you need, one solution is to go and kill them and/or make slaves of them.

Instead of claiming that the devil made them do it, they basically claimed that god ordered them to do it.

Why doesn't the Bible explain the difficulties? It doesn't because the writers saw nothing wrong with those iron age ethics. What it reveals is that the Bible is not such a great ethical work as is claimed.

[fccool]

Sky,

You shoot yourself in the foot when you paint a god who stoops down to human savage level and logic in order to "win a nation". Who's to say that tomorrow I won't be a victim of such "god" because he wants to change the ways of my murderous neighbor who does not have enough faith to be protected by go without using a gun . Seriously!

Would God really need to help you cheat on your homework because you did not have enough faith to study? Essentially, that's what you are saying... God compromised His character for the sake of Israel, and do it the way Israel wanted? Once again, you are shooting your view of God and Christianity in the foot when you do that, because with such view of God, Catholic inquisition actually begins to make sense, outside of desperate megalomaniacs torturing and killing people to retain political grasp when their religion fails to do so.

[fccool]

As far as God holding Satan back, and then allowing him to destroy... nice rationalization, but does not really work out either.

It's like saying, I really held back the child molester back until my children disobeyed me, then I just walked out and opened the door and watched and cried while he was doing his dirty deed. You are trying to portray God in better light with such rationalization, but it ends up accomplishing the opposite.

[skyblue888]

It was Christ who gave these "megalomaniac" instructions as to how the Israelites were to kill their enemies with their swords. It was Christ who gave instructions to the Israelites to stone the adulteress and the Sabbath breaker to death. Yet when He was made flesh and walked among them He shocked them by giving them instructions totally opposite to what He had told them before. That is why they accused Him of making the law of none effect and the question on every mind was, How could this so-called prophet be the Messiah?

To me it is clear that Christ came to the world to reveal the Father's way. Therefore to fight their enemies with the sword and to stone the adulteress or the Sabbath breaker to death was not His way. This He clearly demonstrated by dismissing those who were ready to stone a woman caught in adultery. When the woman realized that her accusers had fled the scene, she could not believe her eyes. How could this be? She expected Jesus to go along with the crowd. After all stoning the disobedient to death was understood to be according to the law of Moses which he had received from God.

So there is more than meets the eye here about the character of God, the nature of His government and the principles of His deailng with men.

sky

[skyblue888]

This is one view. I believe there is a much better one. Satan is the accuser. Satan is the one who insists that the sinner is to be punished for his sins. Satan is the one who is thirsting for blood. Satan is the prosecutor and the executioner. Not God. It is true that the law of God demands righteousness and that the transgressor will be punished but God is not, never has been and never will be, the accuser, the prosecutor, or the executioner of the sentence against transgression. We are not to regard Him as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. This is what Satan wants us to believe.

God will never force His presence where it is not wanted and He will not abandon those who have been deceived by tradition and misinterpretation which have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning His character, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin.

When He is forced to withdraw from individuals or nations, there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan.

It is written that after the millenium, the people of all ages will gaze at Satan and will consider him, saying: Is this the man who made the earth to tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities!

Satan is the destroyer, not God. God's great and strange work is not to destroy but to redeem and save, to repair the ruin that sin has made.

sky