A Revelation Tidbit

[Guest]

Nice try Ron in USING the SOP to prove your point for me to NOT use this Inspiration. Ellen White only confirms exactly what the Bible teach on Revelation Churches, Seals, Trumpets, Plagues, messages, which are "given in their order in Revelation and nothing else should engross our attention." 8T 302

Jesus is "the Greater light" that the bible and SOP will lead the honest in heart TOWARDS. there is no such thing as partical inspiration, heaven doesn't work on those principles. Ellen White was just as inspired as all the other bible authors. People that have a problem with the English speaking prophet have the exact same problem with the bible whenever it crosses their preconceived ideas.

Now you mentioned the "Judgement of the living" recently suggesting it was still off in the future. That's bad advice Ron, some people may never full recover from this diversion that pleases their carnal nature. Why not take me to task on the "End time events" thread about "The judgement of the living"? Man's over the hill studies will not fly anymore as many people are now finding out.

[Gus Foster]

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above to Dave also apply to you. When I go to the link you have provided I know exactly what you expect people to believe. You expect people to beliece that Revelation 8:1 is FUTURE, but all the rest of Revelation 8 & 9 are in the PAST!!! just the way Keith , E. Gibbon & U. Smith taught it. That is very shallow my friend to lean so heavly on another generation bible research. I will pass on that serving!!! There is better nourshment in God's word & the SOP than to be dwarf mentally with over the hill study guides from the world. Where are the "people of the book" anymore???

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I really need to respond to this in particular: Revelation 8:1 is a 'prolepsis', an accepted biblical structure among many others that prepare one in truncated form for the following, especially in symbolic principal. John introduces the vision, than capsulizes it, and then details it, and in many cases, there is a separatation of other thoughts, usually gospel or worship, and then a continuation of the expanded vision. To use 8T302 as a source for understanding the churches, seals and trumpets in a chronological order is really stretching, and does not allow other Scripture to succinctly define its meaning.

About the 'over the hill' study: I love it. I used to go down to the public library and read the 'old' books. You know, the ones that knew nothing of a 'secret rapture', secret anything; the ones that knew the buried stayed there until Jesus physical appearance. All this garbage we hear everyday on TV and radio are reasonably new, all without the last two centuries; and they even knew that the Sabbath was the seventh day of the week. Even the encyclopedias from the last century have great definitions of biblical terms, the ones the 'harlots' have forgotton.

As far as Uriah Smith goes; I send thousands of books overseas, and have many copies of Daniel and Revelation on a back top self. I simply won't share them with anyone--they are too inaccurate.

We, of the church, have many more problems than to argue who is right and wrong on prophetic scenerios. I attended a state Town Meeting at my church tonight, and was introduced to the agenda for camp meeting; with the music, the youth programs in sports, the teaching seminars; all of which I am certainly too old for---couldn't digest it, couldn't stand it. Several popular non-Adventists groups performing, I shall do other things. Further, we were introduced on how cultures dissemminating will change our lives--sounded like Bill Hybil to me. But, what do I know? I think we are in the 7th church, the 5th seal, and the 5th trumpet. For me, not to know that Jesus has given Satan the key for the final shaking is aggregious.

[DaveM1936]

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I think we are in the 7th church, the 5th seal, and the 5th trumpet. For me, not to know that Jesus has given Satan the key for the final shaking is aggregious.

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Actually that is the 7th church, 5th seal, 6th trumpet.

The final shaking will be caused by the Laodacean Message, the message of righteousness by faith alone in Jesus. First this message must bring to the church the truth about God, who He is, what His character really is. Then when the truth about God has shaken out all the works oriented people, then the church will take the same message to the world.

Please explain what you mean that Jesus has given the devil the key for the final shaking.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

Gus, you are skating on thin ice in late spring, after the thaw has arrived. The ice is on the move, leaving you out to sea without chart or compass, but grinning from ear to ear with the teaching of mans studies. This grinning your way to heaven as many have been instructed will be seen in better contrast when the truth is proclaimed during the Loud Cry. But this final warning message THEN, is not for fence walkers TODAY, only the honest in heart.

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Dave your position only prove of how accurate the bible is at all times. Your studies proves that Heaven knew before hand by telling us to beware. See Ezekiel 34:18-19

[Ron Lambert]

Ed, you sure have a way with metaphors and analogies!

The problem with such when used as arguments, however, is that the one crucial thing is how correctly parallels are drawn in them; thus metaphor and analogy can never be conclusive arguments because of this essentially subjective element.

But your metaphors and analogies are fun to read.

[Guest]

Ron, I don't recognize myself in having a "problem" at all. The only time it would become a "problem" with me, would be it I became untruthful, as all liars are now making investments in purchasing a lot in the Lake of Fire. Please find something that I have stated/posted that is not truthful then I will sit up & take notice. Many people clutching over the hill bible studies to their breast make a feeble attempt in exposing my deficiencies but they soon realize that after they open their bible to the subject at hand, their solid footing [their favorite evangelist gave them] is like having one foot in quicksand and the other one on a banana peal.

[jasd]

Your Burma Shaves and homilies are absolutely refreshing and dare I say, charming? even when you’re being cussed and obnoxious in that piney-woods fashion. [/grinnin’]

I ordered a coupla tapes of yourn awhile back and seem to recall a NoCal return. Shasta, wasn’t it? Anytheways,

howya doin’ with all those NewAgers pilgrimagin’ to Shasta and its mysteries? durned if a fellow couldn’t make a few buck$ off’n them folks! snake oil, and pine pitch as UFO exhaust… So,

whatcha sellin’ them Iams? [/grinnin’] ;-)

jest kideeenng’, I think you’ve got a bunch of Revelation yet-on spot-on

[Guest]

Jasd the snake oil salesmen have been successful enough financial over the last 50 years to move out from the sawdust floors & canvas roofs to marble floors & the wearing of 3 piece business suits where satellite dishes are on every building of their pliable people that are intoxicated over their sorceries potions.

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Ron I notice you failed to answer a post directed to you concerning substance, but chose to enter in on a post where sport was engaged, and I am the one with a “problem”???

[Ron Lambert]

Ed, you only reprised some issues we have argued about before; I disagree with you on the timing of the seals and trumpets--I believe they are simultaneous to the Judgment of the Living in Heaven and Time of Trouble on earth, while you have the trumpets being synonymous with the seven last plagues, which are poured out after the close of probation.

I saw no reason to just rehash the same arguments again, so I just left your words lying there on the ground. (I know that will serve as a jumping-off point for some new, earthy analogy--or as jasd calls it, one of your "Burma Shaves and homilies.") I do enjoy them. You have a literary talent.

[Guest]

This is not a “tidbit” from Revelation, it is SOLID nourishment to help cure those inflicted with leaning on man studies concerning Rev.5-6 [the 7 seals]. As a matter of fact it will seek out & destroy all the printed material in the Adventist evangelist briefcases.

Are we clear now as to what is in the "roll" that Jesus takes from His Fathers hand and where the timing of the first seal begins?

"The Book with the Seven Seals contains the history of the world... Revelation 5:1-3. There in His open hand lay the book the roll of the history of God's providence’s, the prophetic history of nations and the church. Herein was contained the divine utterances, His authority, His commandments, His laws, the whole symbolic counsel of the Eternal, and the history of all ruling powers in the nations. In symbolic language was contained in that roll the influence of every nation, tongue, and people from the beginning of earth's history to its close." 9 Manuscript Release page 7.

And from Christ's Object Lessons 294, we learned that the roll contains deeds or decisions of the professed people of God. Let me add just one statement from inspiration before going on explaining a portion of the second seal. "As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived on the earth, (antediluvians) our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living". Great Controversy 483. Notice the words "successive generation". The second seal would be the next generation or class of people, probably those who lived forward of the flood. Their names next come in review and the second beast steps forward and says, "come and see." He is identifying himself with this class of people. He remembers the Tower of Babel and saw how God confused their language.

"And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see...and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand." Revelation 6:5. "Balances" weighing, judging all the same. Here it was, God was being weighed in the balances by mortal man, and found guilty. Jesus Christ in that mock trial by His own church leaders, died saying "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." That was a sincere request to His Father, but now during the third seal, the twenty-four elders review the names of this generation. They know the person's name who blind folded Jesus and slapped His face. Those in that judgment scene in heaven knows who made that crown of thorns and pressed or screwed it on the forehead of the one they adore. "Thus the Jewish leaders made their choice and their decision was registered in the book John saw in the hand of him that sat on the throne. In all its vindictiveness their decision will appear before them in the day when this book is unsealed by the lion of the tribe of Judah." Christ's Object Lessons. 294.

But there is more in the third seal that tells of this generation or class of people being JUDGED after 1844 by the Investigative Judgement. It would extend till around AD 70 (the destruction of Jerusalem) "and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine." Revelation 6:6. Rome surrounded that city the second time and built that siege dike so that no one could escape. The food supply in the city was destroyed by warring factions within. "Wheat and barley for a penny." But what is this about "...hurt not the oil or wine"? All through the Bible, the symbols oil and wine represent the harvest. Around 1.4 million stiff-necked Jews were killed, but not one Christian lost their life in Jerusalem, because they remembered to watch for the signal and warning that Jesus had given in Matthew. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" Matthew 24:15.

[Ron Lambert]

Might I point out, Ed, that the seals are not the book itself. Only after all the seals have been opened can any of the scroll be read, since only then can the scroll be unrolled so it can be read. So even if we assume that what Ellen G. White said was the purpose of the scroll (and being a record of God's providences in human history would be a logical record to consult in the judgment), that does not explain the significance of each seal. And it also suggests that the seals must be opened before the scroll can be consulted and the judgment be finished.

[DaveM1936]

I agree. That is why all the seals had to be opened before 1844 when the judgment began.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

Rev.6:12 "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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The 6th seal was opened sometime AFTER 1844 to examining the "deeds" [actions] of all the people that lived from the Lisbon earthquake to the Second Coming of Jesus.

If the account is correct according to you two, then "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places" has already occured??? The last time I looked down while fly over the ocean I'm sure there was a lot of islands still out there, or was that just bales of straw floating for pliable people to grasp while treading water.

When the 7th seal is opened heaven will be examining the deeds of the last generation of people to be judged, the 144,000. Just as soon as they are judged & sealed, the 4 angels of Revelation 7 cease to hold the winds of strife and the 7 last plagues will commence, where ones scoffing days are numbered. 30 days to be exact!! Then "God utters His voice from His holy habitition" and puts a stop to earths open rebellion & lying lips.

[DaveM1936]

I stand corrected. Ed, you are correct. Do you think that the scroll could be sealed in seven sections. That is, the first section was written, then sealed. Then the second section was written, then sealed. And so on. That would mean that as one opened one seal, he could read what it said until he came to the next seal. What do you think?

Your friend,

DAve M

[Guest]

Dave maybe this will help, remember the people being judged under the 6th seal is a generation [or class] of people that lived from the Lisbon earthquake to the Second Coming. All the people that died for their faith is a generation [or class] of people that are being judged under the 5th seal. This class of people need no one to speak in their behalf like the 4 beast did in seals 1 to 4. In the closing elements of time, seals 5, 6 & 7 will all be open. Just as soon as the last person dies for their faith [before the close of probation] then that 5th seal is closed. The 7th seal is a generation [or class] of people being judged that will never see death. Notice that this is in Revelation 8:1 before the close of probation which is 5 verses BEFORE the 7 trumpet commences in 8:6.

[Ron Lambert]

The Judgment began with finding that no human ir angel was worthy to open the scroll, then establishing that there is yet One (the Lamb) who is worthy to open the scroll. See Revelation chapter five.

All the seals must be opened, and the scroll opened and consulted, before the Judgment can be COMPLETED. Only after the Judgment has been completed can human probation be closed and the seven last plagues be poured out unmixed with mercy.

[Guest]

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The Judgment began with finding that no human ir angel was worthy to open the scroll, then establishing that there is yet One (the Lamb) who is worthy to open the scroll. See Revelation chapter five.

All the seals must be opened, and the scroll opened and consulted, before the Judgment can be COMPLETED. Only after the Judgment has been completed can human probation be closed and the seven last plagues be poured out unmixed with mercy.

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Yes Ron this is a true statement that only a few people are willing to check it out for themselves. They are satisified that only "praise" is going on in Revelation 5 & 6 and refuse to see that these chapters is all about JUDGEMENT, of the dead at first, then closes with the living. It will take a Act of God [in my opinion] for anyone attending the SDA the school system to ever surrender their deception that was spoon fed them as nourishment. I am not saying this to be cruel to ANYONE, I am saying it as kind as I know how.

[DaveM1936]

Your response did help. Are you saying that seals 5, 6, 7 will all be open and running at the same time?

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

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Your response did help. Are you saying that seals 5, 6, 7 will all be open and running at the same time?

Your friend,

Dave M

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Yes/No I am saying that people judged under the 6th seal and were judged UNWORTHY are still walking around when Jesus comes back, they are the ones that cry for the rocks to fall/hide them as the cloud of angels is approaching. But the 5th seal is a generation of myrters forwards & backwards of the cross. After the "image beast" is set up, according to Recelation 20:4 the faithful will choose to be "beheaded" rather than sin. This class of people will go to heaven under the Smyrna condition. The 144,000 are the Philadelphia church condition. Those judged LOST under the 6th seal are the Laodicean church condition.

[Gus Foster]

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What you have done sir is to start off wrong [on a false premise] in THINKING that these 7 seals ARE PERIODS OF TIME!!! That is exactly what world taught in the 1700s and Adventist inherited it. But it is not true at all, the 7 seals is about 7 different groups [generations of people] being judged in groups AFTER 1844 when the IJ begin

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If you have looked at my web-site you know that I teach that the first 4 seals are the messengers from heaven and on earth that carry out God's bidding as directed by the 4 cheribim. And many have prayed for these horses for years as a method warning, purging, cleansing and prompting conversion. And they work!

[Guest]

Gus said this. "And many have prayed for these horses for years as a method warning, purging, cleansing and prompting conversion. And they work!"

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I am not disagreeing that people are finding success and revenue for teaching this way, but the question is, does heaven approve of individuals or the entire student body stepping off the platform of truth and making up their own rules. You calling these "4 beast" angels when the bible plainly teach that they are from this earth, even being "redeemed". Remember these 4 beast have an active part in the investigative judgement, are you sure you are comfortable to continue in insulting these 4 human beings with such a job discription?

[Gus Foster]

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We Adventists too often have failed to take a proper attitude into our study of Bible prophecy. Too often we are willing to imagine some "literary pattern" or other rationalization and impose it upon the text in order to justify what has been a long-standing traditional interpretation we as a church have been teaching for generations. The right attitude is always to go by what the text says, using sound exegetical methods of interpretation, allowing the Bible to interpret its own terms and symbols, and let the chips fall where they may.

The view that the seven churches, seals, and trumpets refer mostly to past history depends upon assuming that the vision of the scene in Heaven in Revelation chapters four and five depict the scene at Christ's Ascension to Heaven after His Resurrection, because the seven churches, seals, and trumpets are all presented in the context of the Heavenly scene in chapters four and five.

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Ron -- I find your presentation very sound on the basis of your understanding in an exegetical manner. This would hold true if the presentation of Revelation is/was writen in cronological order. I have seen so many Adventist studies on Revelation, listing orders, parallels, and putting the numbers 1 thru 7 together, staggerin them, etc. We have had some great commentaries from our church on Revelation, and I remmeber thrilling to Were, Thiele, Maxwell and scores of others. But there was more light to be had, and I believe that it will never be exhausted.

All are correct in trying to align correct times to the sevens of the book, for wrong times completely change the settings and meanings for any present age. Personally, I find this book revealing the 'church age', even tho there are many references to Israel, like Rev 12:1 for example. This verse ties God's people together, as does the New Jersalem (Rev 21), and the 24 elders.

Again, I would like to stress the structures involved in the writing, and consequently, the reading (undrstanding). John uses the chiasm in every group, and the correct interpretation is that the 4's are central, thematic. This not place the 1&7; 2&6; 3&5 at the same time period, neither does it make them at different times. To magnify this, simple put the 3rd and 5th trumpet in the same setting; it changes no time nor order, but enhances the meaning. And then your concordance will find the source John is refering you to, and the application of that source now refers to the church age--not one part of it, but all of it. That is not true with the 1's&7's, because they reveal the end of the church age.

It may well be that in groping for time and place, one will miss the true meaning, that of a relationship with Christ, and koinenea with fellows. I am convinced that prophecy intrepretation may be incomplete to anyone, but relationship shipshape. Right now I see a church leader and a world leader who when united in purpose, can bring about the conclusion of Revelation very quickly. An ecconomic earthquake could make that happen tonight. The church has always needed the state to enforce its decrees, edits. There is one ready and willing.

I do not find the chiasm 'a literary pattern' to be ignored, because John dealt in symbolism, there are never ending intrepretations, but exegesis cannot displace quote. The Rev 17 whore reflects Jezebel, and that example, from the church founders or not, is a fact. I find your thoughts sound, and know your basis is a final rest in and with Jesus.

[Guest]

"Upon every family, upon every individual Christian, is laid the duty of barring the way against corrupt speech. When in the company of those who indulge in foolish talk, it is our duty to change the subject of conversation if possible. By the help of the grace of God we should quietly drop words or introduce a subject that will turn the conversation into a profitable channel. {COL 337.3}

[Gus Foster]

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I am not disagreeing that people are finding success and revenue for teaching this way, but the question is, does heaven approve of individuals or the entire student body stepping off the platform of truth and making up their own rules. You calling these "4 beast" angels when the bible plainly teach that they are from this earth, even being "redeemed". Remember these 4 beast have an active part in the investigative judgement, are you sure you are comfortable to continue in insulting these 4 human beings with such a job discription?

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This last couple of weeks I have been putting together a study on the 'feasts' and related subjects, since they are intricate in the understanding of the approaching "Lord's Day" as to when, where, how and more. As one looks into these feasts in Exodus, Leviticus (especially 16), in Daniel, and in the NT (especially Hebrews, and especially 9) we find the 'creatures' engravened around the ark, on the curtains, surrounding God, and in the prophets books we see all of their angelic attributes and functions. If anyone wants to insist that these are 'redeemed' and 'human' that is their choice. And further, I would think that if one insists on a strick historical intrepretation of Revelation in a chronological order, and that judgment started on the living in 1844, and has been ongoing for 151 years, that believing that Rev 4 starts at that date would be a correct assumption. I should point out that these then would be human conclusions, and not Biblical interpretation based on 'Sola Scriptura". From Scripture we meet these 'creatures' guarding the gate in Genesis, blocking the way in the Exodus, and are active in all phases on earth's demise. They even hand out bowls of 'God's wrath'!

And not understanding that Rev 5 is Pentecost at AD 31 certainly would create new intrepretation thought patterns that would nullify any description of the seals and trumpets of being judgmental, unless they were the tools for final judgment themselves. We can truncate this thought process by setting the boundries of intrepretation by simply dating Rev 5. In your case, the Lamb was bleeding until the 2400 days were exhausted. In my case, he was plucked from the earth and arighted His rightful place at ascention.

And also, in my case, He rose to a one room sanctuary, with no doors, no curtains, no walls, only the immense throne room, with the cheribim serving God, and directing 24 priests serving God day and night.

[DaveM1936]

I try to follow the discussion of you folk on Revelation. Much of it is over my head. My propblem with theologians is that they often cannot bring down their ideas so that the little old lady who knows nothing about Daniel and Revelation can understand. Of course, I am not a lilltte old lady. I am an old man (68). But in my sermons and SS teaching, I have learned to make it as simple as I can so that the most uneducated can understand.

If I could really understand (I have a BA and MA in history), then I could enter into this discussion and others that are introduced from time to time. I read the posts and scratch my head. "What did he say."

The following paragraph is an example.

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And not understanding that Rev 5 is Pentecost at AD 31 certainly would create new intrepretation thought patterns that would nullify any description of the seals and trumpets of being judgmental, unless they were the tools for final judgment themselves. We can truncate this thought process by setting the boundries of intrepretation by simply dating Rev 5. In your case, the Lamb was bleeding until the 2400 days were exhausted. In my case, he was plucked from the earth and arighted His rightful place at ascention.

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That first long sentence makes no sense. I do not mean that I disagree. I mean that I don't know what you said. "Trucate this thought pattern". What does this mean?

This is the only part that I could understand enough to disagree with.

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And also, in my case, He rose to a one room sanctuary, with no doors, no curtains, no walls, only the immense throne room, with the cheribim serving God, and directing 24 priests serving God day and night.

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If the earthly sanctuary had two rooms, why would the heavenly only have one? Was not the earthly a pattern of the heavenly? How do you explain away EGW obvious understanding that the heavenly sanctuary has two huge rooms. Enough for hundreds of thousands of angels.

Your friend,

Dave M