A Revelation Tidbit

[Gus Foster]

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Poster: DaveM1936

Subject: Re: A Revelation Tidbit

I try to follow the discussion of you folk on Revelation. Much of it is over my head. My propblem with theologians is that they often cannot bring down their ideas so that the little old lady who knows nothing about Daniel and Revelation can understand. Of course, I am not a lilltte old lady. I am an old man (68). But in my sermons and SS teaching, I have learned to make it as simple as I can so that the most uneducated can understand.

If I could really understand (I have a BA and MA in history), then I could enter into this discussion and others that are introduced from time to time. I read the posts and scratch my head. "What did he say."

The following paragraph is an example.

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And not understanding that Rev 5 is Pentecost at AD 31 certainly would create new intrepretation thought patterns that would nullify any description of the seals and trumpets of being judgmental, unless they were the tools for final judgment themselves. We can truncate this thought process by setting the boundries of intrepretation by simply dating Rev 5. In your case, the Lamb was bleeding until the 2400 days were exhausted. In my case, he was plucked from the earth and arighted His rightful place at ascention.

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That first long sentence makes no sense. I do not mean that I disagree. I mean that I don't know what you said. "Trucate this thought pattern". What does this mean?

This is the only part that I could understand enough to disagree with.

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And also, in my case, He rose to a one room sanctuary, with no doors, no curtains, no walls, only the immense throne room, with the cheribim serving God, and directing 24 priests serving God day and night.

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If the earthly sanctuary had two rooms, why would the heavenly only have one? Was not the earthly a pattern of the heavenly? How do you explain away EGW obvious understanding that the heavenly sanctuary has two huge rooms. Enough for hundreds of thousands of angels.

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Dave--I will be 67 in June, so we are not that far apart in culture and education, although I never graduated from college. In order to follow my statements you have to follow the evalution of this thread. I am responding to Ed and Dave and their comments. Placing the time element of the application of Rev 4&5 creates a foundation for understanding the seals and the trumpets as to their application during the church age. In other words, if Rev 4&5 actually happened in AD 31 at Christ's ascention, then it follows that the seals and trumpets are throughout the entire church age. If, on the other hand, the time element is at the beginning of the judgment of the living which started in 1844 as ED and Dave purport, then the seals and the trumpets only have application for the past 150 years. If that were the case, then the 'Lamb bleeding on the floor of heaven' would only apply to 1844 and beyond.

You should be able to follow this from the beginning of Ed's contributions. And many professers at Andrews are now teaching that Rev 4&5 are at the time of the first Pentecost of the church, in AD 31. You really need to get Ranko Stefanovic's teaching manual.

About the sanctuary in heaven. I know you are familiar with all the hulabalo about its size, shape and compartments. This has been a debated issue long before me. Look at it this way: what was the purpose of the Holy & Most Holy? Sin! And many teach that there was not an actual movement from room to room in 1844, but a movement of purpose and judgment. No curtains there; no walls there; no barriers there. In fact, in all of the visions portrayed of heaven it is shown as a pyramid, with God on His throne over every other being, and in the case of Isaiah, Ezekiel, and John, directly over the heads of the 4 creatures, arch-angels, cheribim, seraphim. Ezek one and Zech 6 explains in detail their very existence and purpose. Even the Holy City in Rev 21 is a pyramid, although described as a cubical holy of holies.

It is interesting that Satan had his 'beasts' over the millineums build all this pyramids on every continent through different cultures.

I have read both ways, that EGW two rooms were both physical and/or spiritual. I agree that she depicts in serveral places the physcial movement from room to room takes place. And even in one place where the table of showbread was a throne and that was moved into the Most Holy. This physical/spiritual intrepretation will never be resolved in unity, and I have no answer except to give it to others more qualified than I.

I know what Revelation states, and what the quotes denote; the connotation is always debatable, but hopefully all minds will spend their earnest attention on the Lamb, and not what we all think that He has done or will do physically. I can easily state that if the Lord allows me the priviledge of being with Him in heaven, I will be most surprised just as if I was walking 'on the road to Emmaus'. I am sure that most of us will agree with that.

[Guest]

Gus you sure are good at confusing the issue, everything you say is on the pattern of “you can take it this way, or take it that way”, or professor blank thinks this/that/maybe. No way, here we are right on the threshold of the Loud Cry to be given and confusion is in almost every breath you utter. How do to you expect a army of God’s witness to give the final warning when you know yourself of how fragmented your teaching are? Revelation 5:9 proves beyond all shadow of doubt that the 24 elder & the 4 beast are from this planet [now in heaven] and have been “redeemed”. You could stack all your study guides from all your respected professors from ocean to ocean and STILL there it is written, a thus sayeth the Lord to guide your wandering steps. There will be a famine in the land someday of hearing Gods Word, “study guides” are only good at starting fires on cold morning.

[Gus Foster]

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Revelation 5:9 proves beyond all shadow of doubt that the 24 elder & the 4 beast are from this planet [now in heaven] and have been “redeemed”. You could stack all your study guides from all your respected professors from ocean to ocean and STILL there it is written, a thus sayeth the Lord to guide your wandering steps

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Rev 5:9:

And they sang a new song:

You are worthy to take the scroll

and to open its seals, because your were slain,

and with your blood you purchased men for God

from every tribe and language and people and nation.

vs 10:

You made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve

our God,

and they will reign on the earth.

And they (4 creatures & 24 elders) sang (acclaimation to both the Father and the Son who now possess the history of all mankind)

Every creature surrounds the throne and gives royal acclaimation to the Lamb (5:11), and now the Son takes the seat where the scroll had been--to run the estate of mankind. They term here is not purchased us, nor made us, but rather purchased men, made them, they will reign!

EGW states in GC 545, DA 131; EW 61; GC 652; MH 506/507; ML 348; St Dec 1889 and SD 236 that all of heaven sings this new song praising the One who 'hast redeemed us to God'!!

Peter agreed with John that the kingdom of priests was not just for a future time (1 Pet 2:5,9)

It is my passion that we concentrate on relationships based on 'all of heaven' working in unison for men to be 'brought into harmony' with the Father, and enjoying His love within them. These final hours are 'to bring home all who will be saved' and not just to purify His own; God has no desire to excercise His 'aweful act' of destruction. Rev 5:9 is taking place as we now breathe, in all four corners of the earth, and the call of Rev 18:4 is going out in John's prolepsis/chiastic setting.

[Guest]

Gus I have no idea of where you are quoting from, but here is what the Holy bible says if you are inclined to know.

Revelation 5:8-9 “And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

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Anyone that refuses to compare what the bible says with that interpertation you were distorting from above, will receive exactly what they are seeking. Being deceive!

There are 28 "redeemed" HUMANS in heaven on their knees singing this song.

[Ron Lambert]

Most modern translations of the Bible go with the ancient manuscripts that read: "with your blood you purchased men for God....You made them to be a kingdom and priests...." The Old King James Version goes with manuscripts that say "us" and "we."

These 24 elders are presented as wearing crowns and sitting on thrones during the Judgment, while it is proceeding, and before it has ended. It would be extremely inappropriate for humans who are the ones being judged during the judgment, to preside over their own judgment, and to wear crowns they have not yet been judged worthy to wear. I believe therefore that the translators of the modern versions have it right. The translators of the KJV were wrong.

I would suggest that the 24 elders are representatives from other unfallen worlds; perhaps other "Adams" from other worlds. It would be appropriate for them to be there, since the Judgment is just as important to them as to the angels, who are also depicted in the prophecy as being present.

[Guest]

What one thinks or feels is/maybe right has noting to do with what is written from inspiration. Was it Martin Luther that coined these words? Roll over in your grave Martin and give your report, people are more stiff neck now than when you said these word 500 years ago. "Feelings come and feelings go. But feeling are deceiving. I'll trust alone in Word of God, NOTHING else is worth beliving."

In our earthly court sitting, the jury is always made up of their neighbors. Humans are being judged in heaven as we speak and it is humans sitting on those 24 seats that have been "reedeemed".[5:9] Only this earth needs redeemption. What a insult it is to suggest to those 28 "redeemed" persons in heaven that they are not from this earth when in reality each one of the group that Jesus escorted to heaven in AD 31 was a myrter in their particuar generation.

[DaveM1936]

If we spend more time looking at Jesus and walking life in company with Him, then our differences will make no difference. It is more important that we treat each other with love and caring that it is that we all agree on every point.

I believe that the first seal represented the apostolic church. However John did not receive the vision until around 95 A.D. Either the vision was retroactive or it began in 95 A.D. I always have problems with people who insist that any prophecy has only one application. Many, if not most, have several applications. First, it applied to situation during the life of the prophet. Then it has an application over the centuries. Finally, it has an end-time application. This is true of the seals as it is of most of Revelation. It does have a historical application. It also has an end-time one.

Your friend,

Dave M

[DaveM1936]

I take the same position that EGW took. In the only reference I could find where she mentions the 24 elders, she calls them "heavenly beings". She never expands on what she meant. If it was not important enough to her to go any further than this, then I can also say that I do not more than that.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

Dave there is a big/big difference in your schooling & mine, I was taught that when one takes a journey to see what is on the other side of the mountain, one is to look for a path or trail, even build one if necessary. But you it seems as though you were taught to just stay in the trailhead parking lot and plug your treadmill into the drinking fountain 110 volt outlet to work yourself into a good sweat.

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"The ancient philosophy was a treadmill not a path. It was made up of revolving questions of controversies which were always beginning again. It was a contrivance for having much exertion and no progress. . . The human mind, accordingly, instead of marching, merely marked time. It took as much trouble as would have sufficed to carry it forward, and yet remained on the same spot. There was no accumulation of truth. . . There had been plenty of plowing, harrowing, reaping, threshing. But the garners contained only smut and stubble.'" Macaul'ay's Beacon, 380.

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Yes since I discarted mans studies on Revelation years ago and asked for heavens assistance in study, I look over in my neighbors field and see them plowing, harrowing, reaping, threshing, but...

[Gus Foster]

Since I noticed that you use EGW writings a lot to 'prove' your points, I merely thought that I would follow suit. You can go to:

http://www.ellenwhite.com/search/search.asp

to get all of her 'published' writings'. I use "An Exhaustive Ellen G White Commentary on Daniel/Revelation" for all her published and unpublished quotes on these two books. It saves a lot of hassle on her exact quotes and textual meanings.

GC=Great Controversy

DA=Desire of Ages

EW=Early Writings

MH=Ministry of Healing

ML=My Life Today

SD=Sons and Daughters of God

ST=Signs of the Times

All of those pages listed on the posts listed above are exact quotes about Rev 5:8,9.

Once again, anyone would do well to use a concordance and look up the words in Hebrew, Greek and English on every text in Revelation to find John's source for explaining Israel's admonitions, warnings and promises in his symbolic structure pretaining to the church of his time and through to the 2nd and 3rd advent.

I have even received e-mails stating that although there is much Scripture to show John's intentions, that would never supercede their own notions of interpretation conclusions. God help and bless them!

[Gus Foster]

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I believe that the first seal represented the apostolic church. However John did not receive the vision until around 95 A.D. Either the vision was retroactive or it began in 95 A.D. I always have problems with people who insist that any prophecy has only one application. Many, if not most, have several applications. First, it applied to situation during the life of the prophet. Then it has an application over the centuries. Finally, it has an end-time application. This is true of the seals as it is of most of Revelation. It does have a historical application. It also has an end-time one.

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Way to go Dave, you are exactly correct. Rev 1-14 is for every Christian in every age, and had application for every one who related with Jesus; that is why John used all of those structures, not just to hide from Rome, since he was already their prisoner. Some of our 'older books' that have been maligned by some, are incredible. Read in Foxe's Book of Martyrs how teen agers could dress in white and walk right up to the graves they were made to dig for themselves--they [:"red"] [/] knew [:"black"] [/] they were living for eternity, and not for this life. The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop shares these views. And soon, as the 5th seal states, we shall have eternal decisions to make, or rather, to illuminate.

[Guest]

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I believe that the first seal represented the apostolic church. However John did not receive the vision until around 95 A.D. Either the vision was retroactive or it began in 95 A.D. I always have problems with people who insist that any prophecy has only one application. Many, if not most, have several applications. First, it applied to situation during the life of the prophet. Then it has an application over the centuries. Finally, it has an end-time application. This is true of the seals as it is of most of Revelation. It does have a historical application. It also has an end-time one.

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Way to go Dave, you are exactly correct. Rev 1-14 is for every Christian in every age, and had application for every one who related with Jesus; that is why John used all of those structures, not just to hide from Rome, since he was already their prisoner. Some of our 'older books' that have been maligned by some, are incredible. Read in Foxe's Book of Martyrs how teen agers could dress in white and walk right up to the graves they were made to dig for themselves--they [:"red"] [/] knew [:"black"] [/] they were living for eternity, and not for this life. The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop shares these views. And soon, as the 5th seal states, we shall have eternal decisions to make, or rather, to illuminate.

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Gus do you remember seeing the pictures of all the trees uprooted when Mt. Saint Hellen [Washington state] blew her top, belching fire & smoke? Well if all those trees were taken to a saw mill and cut into props for your use in propping up old error or propping up one another who choose to be deceived don't expect this temp. fix to be of any lasting value.

[Ron Lambert]

Ed, I brought up the point of how grossly inappropriate it would be for humans (if the 24 elders are humans) to preside over their own judgment sitting on thrones and wearing crowns, when their right to sit on thrones and wear crowns is what to be decided in the judgment.

You try to dismiss that argment as merely a "feeling." But the question is what is logical and reasonable. You are in the position of saying we should disregard what is logical and reasonable. Let me state it in the strongest terms. What you are teaching, that the 24 elders are humans, represents God as being unjust, conferring thrones and crowns upon humans before they have been judged worthy to receive them. Thus what you are teaching is a serious misrepresentation of God's character. You need to think more carefully about the logical consequences of what you are teaching, what it implies about God.

[Guest]

Ron, Revelation 5:9 teaches that the 24 elders AND the 4 beast are human. It was recored there stating that they have been redeemed before I was ever born, it will remain there if I had never beed born. The fact that each one of those person that Jesus took to heaven in AD 31 died for their faith ["at the cost of their lives" DA] This is what Martin Luther saw in print, this is what all the people that died tied to a brush fire in the dark ages saw in print. God's words can't change, people need to change.

A sixth grade grammer teacher knows what this verse says in the KJV, why has "higher education" clouded everyone so?

[Gus Foster]

Just as an afterthought I went to the SDA commentary to see what they had sustained from the KJV. On the question of Rev 5:9 they actually kinda argue with thenmselves about the word 'us and them'. And finally, they conclude with 'them', and primarily I think because EGW says so. One can find her comments in the back of Volume 7. On Rev 8 and 9-12 she refers to Heb 1:14 and calls all the groups heavenly beings. One can find that on page 922-924.

In my study, we found the 24 elders to be the resurrected priests that Jesus took back to heaven with Him; those that serve and worship God day and night from 1 Cron 24. And we found the 4 creatures to be those of Ezekiel 1 & 10; cherubim; and I see SDA Vol 7 page 772 and 768 agree. I have seen scores of others' work on Rev, from all denominations, and no one, not one, has even hinted about the 4 living creatures being anythng but angels. They are the ones that have the 4 bowls, and keep the 4 corners of the earth in check, directed explicitly from the Father.

[DaveM1936]

I agree with Ed. Angels are not the judges of the human race. IF not human, then who are the elders and beasts? I studied this long before I ever heard of Ed or this site. Daniel saw the same scene in Daniel 7. The lesser thrones surrounded God's throne. Angels did not sit on these thrones. But they are pictured as surrounding the thrones.

The four living creatures are not so easily explained. IMO, they represent the four various aspects of Christ's office as our intercessor. The faces also are similiar to the symbols on the flags of the twelve tribes as they moved in groups of three tribes in the wilderness. I do not believe they are angels. What other beings are in heaven other than those raised when Jesus was raised?

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

Quote. "What other beings are in heaven other than those raised when Jesus was raised?"

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Enoch/Moses/Elijah they make up three fourth of the "4 beast", John the Baptist is the other one since Jesus took those that died for their faith "from every generation, even in the days of Christ". SOP

[Bravus]

Of course, there could be creatures from other unfallen worlds in heaven. Perhaps the four-faced creatures in Ezekiel are the prophet's best attempt at describing beings from another planet who are very difficult to describe in earthly terms.

[Guest]

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Of course, there could be creatures from other unfallen worlds in heaven. Perhaps the four-faced creatures in Ezekiel are the prophet's best attempt at describing beings from another planet who are very difficult to describe in earthly terms.

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Bravus there is always room for speculation if anyone is so inclined, but I stay away from that when Bible evidence is given.If these creature are from another planet then their own testimony [5:9] tells us that they are there because the One that was slain [Jesus] has "redeemed" them. Now who would want to open a can of worm to suggest that another world has fallen into sin and they need a Savior? No way, this earth is the only fallen one in need of a Saviour. 6th grade grammer is all that is needed here, why is so much resistance over something that is as plain as the nose on ones face???

[Ron Lambert]

But Ed, the only Bible evidence you are going by is the way Revelation 5:9, 10 are translated in the KJV, and you are ignoring the way these same verses are translated in many of the more modern translations that had older manuscripts to go by (that were discovered after the KJV was translated). I can cite Revelation 5:9, 10 in the NASB, and this PROVES my point according to Scripture:

"And they sang a new song, saying, 'Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.'"

So are you going to accept the Scriptural evidence, Ed? The Bible text clearly rules out the possibility that the 24 elders are humans. At least the Bible text does in the NASB, as well as others.

As I said before, the 24 elders must be representatives of unfallen worlds, other "Adams," of other worlds, if you will. We know that the beings on unfallen worlds have great interest in the Judgment of humanity, and it would be strange if they were not represented there, when the angels are.

Also as I argued before, it would be unreasonable and imply that God is unjust to suppose that humans sit on thrones and wear crowns while presiding over their own judgment which is what determines whether they will be judged worthy to sit on thrones and wear crowns.

[Guest]

Well Ron here we are back full circle [5 years worth] and most people don't even know what we are even talking about.AGAIN! First you tell me not to use Ellen White to prove my point. NOW you tell me not to prove my point by using the KJV. I was saying 5 years ago that the one common demoniator with with those that pick & choose what is heavenly inspired from Ellen White will ALSO disregard the KJV whenever it crosses their path of a old established/inheirted error. That so called translation you used for this verse in question is not to bad however. "purchased" those that Jesus took to heaven with Him. Did He "purchased" anyone from planet XYZ? Of course not! Earth is the only place needing redeemption.

[Ron Lambert]

I never said not to use the KJV, Ed. Rather, I am chiding you for assuming that it is safe to go exclusively by any one translation, especially when other translations are significantly different on the point in dispute. You are remiss in ignoring the fact that other good translations render Revelation 5:9, 10 differently than the KJV.

[DaveM1936]

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As I said before, the 24 elders must be representatives of unfallen worlds, other "Adams," of other worlds, if you will. We know that the beings on unfallen worlds have great interest in the Judgment of humanity, and it would be strange if they were not represented there, when the angels are.

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You have some interesting opinions. While the above is one theory, there are others equally as good. In human courts, people are judged by a jury of their peers. Duriing the 1000 years the sentence to be carried out on the lost will be decided by members of the human race. To me, it makes sense that the elders are human. We are judged by members of our own race. "Adam's" from unfallen worlds are not qualified to judge us. They do not know what it means to be saved from our sinfulness. Only those who have fought the same battles we fight are qualified to determine our fate.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Ron Lambert]

Dave, for the 24 elders to be a "jury of our peers," they must go through a jury selection process. Their fitness to be included on the jury would surely be challenged if they were guilty of the same sins as the accused. It is objectionable for the 24 elders to preside over a judgment inwhich they themselves are also among the accused. The accused cannot serve on the jury!

In modern Western jurisprudence, the jury determines guilt or innocence, and in capital cases determines whether the death penalty is appropriate, and in lawsuits determines amounts of cash settlements, etc. There is no indication in Revelation 4, 5 that the 24 elders decide guilt or innocence, or have any say in deciding the penalty. Like the angels, they are witnesses only. Scripture is clear that God alone determines guilt or innocence, therefore God is both Judge and Jury. There is no depiction in Revelation 4, 5 of a canvassing of the 24 elders or the four beasts or any of the angels for their "vote."

By the way, do not confuse the Judgment of the Living with the Millennial Judgment, in which the saints merely review the judgments that God has already made, to satisfy themselves of God's justice.

Dave, I appreciate that there are other theories, and I enjoy considering and discussing them. However, I have reached the conclusion that the position I present is better than all the others, because it fits Bible requirements and the demands of sound reason and equitable justice better. There are no objections anyone can bring against the view I have suggested. Serious objections can be raised (as I have demonstrated, and which no one has answered) that show that the view that the 24 elders are humans is untenable. People are free to choose whichever view they prefer; but if people wish to believe the 24 elders are humans, their reason is personal preference only. I do not believe that is enough.

[Guest]

Ron are you aware that those 24 elders are in heaven are aware of you judging their credibility to be in a position ordained by heaven? I think the entire watching universe is satisfied and know exactly where they came from and the testimony the gave.

“As Christ arose, He brought from the grave a multitude of captives. The earthquake at His death had rent open their graves, and when He arose, they came forth with Him. They were those who had been co-laborers with God, and who at the cost of their lives had borne testimony to the truth. Now they were to be witnesses for Him who had raised them from the dead. {DA 786.1}

“cost of their lives had borne testimony to the truth.”

“cost of their lives had borne testimony to the truth.”

What a insult to those humans, now exalted to heaven being judged by puny man. May heaven help us.