there buster Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Quote: There are a lot of different ways to inquire as to how a person arrived at a conclusion without being abusive or talking down to him, Ed Well, I'm breathless. How did you come to the conclusion that ancient times were more gracious? Quote: Again, I am sorry I bring out the worst in you.....I hope that someday, you can overcome this defect in your character... Well, at least you're not talking down to me. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted March 8, 2005 Author Share Posted March 8, 2005 Come on guys -- you're both better than this, let's not do this to each other. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 So, all you have is ad hominem attacks. Next time, try responding to the evidence I gave, rather than presuming to judge my character. You wrote: Quote: Concider,[sic] the OT was into being gracious in thier [sic] relationships. I did not question your intelligence or your character. I questioned your reading of history, and used the following evidence: Quote: When Recab and Baanah brought David the head of Ishbosheth, they expected they would be rewarded, that was the gracious sort of relationship they had in ancient times. That was contrary evidence. Did you respond with evidence of your own? No. Instead of responding to the evidence you responded with psycho-babble about my buttons, and began judging my character. In the absence of anything other than naked assertion, I countered. Quote: Quote: If you really believe that ancient times were more "gracious," well, you can't expect me to take you seriously. There are a lot of different ways to inquire as to how a person arrived at a conclusion without being abusive or talking down to him, Ed. You are a writer and you know this, or at least I assume you do.... It's a cheap lawyer's trick that when your case is weak (or nonexistent) you start trying to impeach the opposition. I didn't talk down to you. I spoke to you as a thinking person. Note the syntax, "If you .. . then you. . ." That's called a hypothesis. I didn't say you were an idiot or morally defective, the latter technique is yours. I said I couldn't take you seriously. Cleverly, you accuse me of talking down to you in the words one would use with a ten-year old. I make no apology for questioning the seriousness of your argument. Adults take responsibility for making sense, and can differentiate between their words and their character. I know you can. Clothe your naked assertions in evidence, and we can take them seriously. Stop the personal attacks when your argument is weak. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted March 10, 2005 Moderators Share Posted March 10, 2005 You do tend to play the 'if you do that, then there's no point talking to you' card quite often, Ed. I realise that you're intending to just talk straight, not talk down, but it does feel dismissive. Would it have been too difficult to just say to Neil something like "I have trouble understanding your definition of 'graciousness' in OT times, given the.... [evidence here] - can you explain it a bit more clearly?" Same result, less aggro... Neil has a particular definition of graciousness and civilisation that applies to manners rather than to things like torture and murder. It took me a moment to get that because he also took issue with my comments about the Bush administration's condoning of torture as making mankind less civilised (as you did!), based on his definition of civilisation. This is no sort of attack or argument on either of you, just an attempt to hold up the mirror to help you work on your specks, while I'm over here trying to find a big enough crane for this beam... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 Quote: You do tend to play the 'if you do that, then there's no point talking to you' card quite often, Ed. I realise that you're intending to just talk straight, not talk down, but it does feel dismissive. I will take that under advisement. I use it not only to talk straight, but to avoid wasting time. My point in that particular case was that there is no common ground on which to form the basis of discussion. Instead of providing evidence, he went on the attack. I didn't have trouble understanding Neil's definition of graciousness, he never offered it. If Neil has a particular definition of graciousness, he should offer it, not simply declare it. I only have his own behavior to go on. If manners matter then the novels of Jane Austen provide some of the most gracious expressions imaginable. I'm perfectly happy to discuss manners. The notion that in OT times people were more mannerly evaporates when one actually reads the text. A person who makes such an assertion should expect to provide evidence if he wishes to be taken seriously. Feelings are fine, but they've become overemphasized in our day. All manner of vice and intellectual laziness become excusable, because confronting them makes everyone uncomfortable. In fact, no true and healthy relationship can exist without confrontation, because only in that way can abuse and dysfunction be removed. I have said before, and will say again, I have all the time in the world for real inquiry, to share a learning journey with someone. I have no time at all for obfuscation and diversion. Tell me I'm mistaken. Show me the error in my presentation. That I welcome. Tell me I'm heretical, a tool of the devil, a stooge of the left (or right) wing, and I'm dismissive. I admit to being impatient. Sloppy reasoning combined with an air of moral superiority makes me extremely impatient. That's why I responded as I did. I will take your counsel seriously. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 Quote: I will take that under advisement. I am glad that you are taking that under advisement, Ed. I will explain this one more time....I will not talk to you anymore...And this is the reason why... 1]I am setting boundarys for myself...I don't have time to waste argueing anymore. I simply will not argue with you.... 2] I have appologized to you for pushing your buttons...I will continue to appologize to you for pushing your buttons. My postings to you obviously cause you to imagine the worst of me, ie talking down to you or something alone those type of lines...I am not a writer. I dont know how to write in such a way so as to kindly tell you that I disagree with you without you thinking that I think that you are some sort of doufus....I am sorry that is communicated....It is not my intent, especially in the last 3 posts to you. 3] I continue to see, at least from this end, that you want to dismiss my experience, my evidence , and to some extent, me...I feel that you want to shame me in some way...I am sorry, but I refuse to allow you to make me feel that way. If Bevin see them as "dismissive", you can bet your sweet bibbee that I also see them as that but also as being talked down to... Because of these reasons, I feel that you and I should not post to each other. So, sorry Ed...It has to be this way. I am sorry if this is gonna cause some consturnation for you. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 Quote: Come on guys -- you're both better than this, let's not do this to each other. Sorry, Nico.... I would like to be a better poster. I have made some decisions and I just refuse to rise to these challenges...espeically when they bring out my worst nature. You may have noticed a difference in my postings of late...More cheerful [ I hope]....more of good natured teasing....I am more satisfied with it...Of course there are some who persist in presenting a view that is out of step with the world, but hey, my job is not to tell them they are wrong....That's the Holy Spirit's job...I have other fish to fry.... So please forgive me as I set the boundary for myself of refusing to argue with Ed, or anyone who I believe to be wrong...And I honestly gave him more than a couple of chances, and I have to admit, his dismissive writing style makes me feel that he thinks he's superior to anyone here...He doesn't attempt to be more humble in style, nor does his caustic remarks about other's intelligence endear himself to another.... So please for give me if I choose not to reply anymore to him. I just don't have that much time to live in anger......Life is too short for that anyway... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 Quote: Neil has a particular definition of graciousness and civilisation that applies to manners rather than to things like torture and murder. It took me a moment to get that because he also took issue with my comments about the Bush administration's condoning of torture as making mankind less civilised (as you did!), based on his definition of civilisation. As I came back to this, this morning, I see that the post I refered to was NOT Bevins, but Bravus! Bravus, how did you manage to change your name and then switch it back???? Oh, well.... I want to persue this [about the Bush administration's condoning of torture as making mankind less civilised, and a working definition of civilisation. ] a bit more, as I suspect that there is some miscommunication [ or is it DIS-communication?] that may be happening... First a definition of civilization- [:"green"] civ·i·li·za·tion 1. An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions. 2. The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome. 3. The act or process of civilizing or reaching a civilized state. 4. Cultural or intellectual refinement; good taste. 5. Modern society with its conveniences: returned to civilization after camping in the mountain [/] I guess I have been making posts with the presumption of civilization as being definitions of 3, 4, and less of 5. I tend to look at civilization as more of a collective of personal integritys, with the nation holding itself to higher standards and being more ...fair.. with its relationships with other nations. This includes being gracious, having curtious mannors [diplomatic skills and policies], holding to the highest principles of fairness, love and well being in its relationship to others nations. I also know that a lot of this goes down the drain when it comes to dealing with antagonistic nations, but it doesn't have to do so all the time. The goal *should be* in dealing with antagonistic nations is fairness and promoting good will for all. I tend to look at grace thus- [:"green"] A sense of fitness or propriety. A disposition to be generous or helpful; goodwill. Mercy; clemency. A favor rendered by one who need not do so; indulgence. A temporary immunity or exemption; a reprieve. [/] Graciousness can be characterized by - [:"green"] 1. kindness and warm courtesy. 2. tact and propriety: responded to the insult with gracious humor. 3. Of a merciful or compassionate nature. 4. Condescendingly courteous; indulgent. 5. charm or beauty; graceful. 6. elegance and good taste: gracious living. 7. Archaic. Enjoying favor or grace; acceptable or pleasing. [/] Torture can be defined as - [:"green"] 1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion. a. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain. 2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense. 3. Something causing severe pain or anguish. [/] It occures to me that any country will put on a good front [PR] while dealings with antangonistic nations. In the US case, this is less than desirable, nevertheless, the aim should be to win thier co operation, not bludgeon them into submition... While there are mixed reactions in Afganistan, Iraq, we still have insurgents attempting to over throw our good will, and the locals believing the ill will of the insurgents over the US.. The muslim populations tend to think that the US is out to destroy thier way of life. This thinking makes it a "holy war", in the muslim mind. So, any muslim that dislikes the US, and not just Afganistan or Iraq populations, but all muslim countries, are able forge together resistances against the US... It has been my understanding that a country, even the US, can not fight a religious war and win over time... Religious wars must be waged on a totally different front from agression. Our administration tends to believe that you can win with agression and good will.... The historys of communist, and fascist countries show that an idealogical wars with force [despite good will], eventually wears out the agressor and undermines the agressor country. This admiinstration that uses torture in acquiring information on other terrorists does nothing in promoting those ideal....This adminstration that uses war to occupy a land that is fractured in it's own ideals does nothing to promote the freedom that it claims to be advancing.... Hope that helps as to where I am coming from.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 Well, Bravus, I guess I can go through this charade of posting to you so that someone else can read it. Perhaps I should engage in ruminations about unnamed others. . . nah! I took your counsel under advisement. Here's mine: Maybe you should give more counsel. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted March 11, 2005 Moderators Share Posted March 11, 2005 Hehe, I'm taking my own counsel to keep my own counsel... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 bon mot Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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