It Is Written - Homosexuality

[Dr. Shane]

The Heart of Freedom

Quote:

The first amendment to the American Constitution runs deep in the makeup of American society. After years of oppression, the early pilgrims wanted a place where they could be free to worship God without the fear of persecution. But today, many are claiming that freedom has led to a situation where once again, Christians are being persecuted, and it's been suggested that Christians ought to seize the reins of government. Tune in today as Pastor Boonstra looks into what the Bible says about it.

[Dr. Shane]

It Is Written also has a DVD with programs that address this issue.

Quote:

What happens when a man is attracted to another man in an intimate way? What happens when a woman prefers the affectionate touch of another woman? Is it acceptable--or is it wrong? Should Christians simply ignore it and not talk about it? In these four DVD programs, It Is Written looks at the subject of homosexuality in a very honest and compassionate way.

Link ----> Compassion Without Compromise

[Gregory Matthews]

I am watching the vidio that Shane linked. The attorney being interviewed make an important statment when he references the argumement which many in CA have made and states that no one can argue that position in court and win.

Some, as do I, will likely disagree with some of his application as to waht Christians should do. In general, he makes good sense in his basic principles.

Thank you Shane in bringing this to out attention.

[Dr. Shane]

Some here at Club Adventist have said those concerned that gay marriage and gay rights infringing on religious liberty are simply paranoid. If that is the case, I guess It Is Written broadcast is among the paranoid.

[Gregory Matthews]

Some here at Club Adventist have said those concerned that gay marriage and gay rights infringing on religious liberty are simply paranoid. If that is the case, I guess It Is Written broadcast is among the paranoid.

Shane: The broadcast does not discuss homosexual marriage.

No, the attorney does not get into any type of paranoia related to religious liberty and homosexual issues.

In my opinion, you seem to delight in erecting a so-called "straw-man" in somebodies field of corn and then destroying it.

In contrast to what some have said, this attorney was quite balanced, appropriate and correct in his basic approach.

[Dr. Shane]

I thought that episode was the same one that was aired on 3ABN Proclaim this morning. I was wrong. The episode I watched this morning is one of the four episodes in "Compassion Without Compromise". I will contact the folks at It Is Written and find out if they have the episode aired this morning online yet. The episode that was on this morning was about how gay marriage infringes on religious liberty. Kevin Boonstra even stated he was concerned that gay marriage laws would force the Christian owner of a printing shop to print wedding invitations for a gay couple. Of course some here at Club Adventist would say such a Christian owner should just get out of the printing business. Not It Is Written. Our church is definitely concerned about the clash of rights between gay rights and religious liberty. Those are not concerned are out of sink with the denomination.

[Gregory Matthews]

There is a fine line between the 1st Amendmente (U.S. of A.) right to believe and practive one's religious beliefs and the right to enter into a business enterprise in an attempt to make money. Government cannot (or should not) regulate the first, but it clearly has the right to regulate the business activities the one has freely chosed to enter.

E.G. Government does not have the right to tell a hospital that it must provide OB services. We have psychiatric hospitals that do not provide such. National Jewish Hospital, which is nationally recognized, here in Denver does not provide general inpatient hospital care of any type.

But, a hospital that provides OB/psychiatric or other types of hospitalized care are required to accept government regualtion of those services that they provide. Their failure to abide by those regulations will typically make then ineligible for any type of government reimbursement.

A photographer may refuse to take any wedding pictures. That same photographer may establish hours and days on which they will take wedding pictures. But, that photographer should not have the right to refuse to take wedding pictures based upon his/her personal ideas of discrimination.

[Gregory Matthews]

Shane said::

Quote:

Those are not concerned are out of sink with the denomination.

Your point of reference is not a denominational requirement.

Certainly your statement is accurate as it applies to some within the deomonination. But, it is simply false as it applies to others.

I remind you of the battle for and against Propisition 8 in California. During that battle individual SDAs and in some cases independent organizations took public posiitons both for and against Prop. 8. There were well known people (SDAs) on each side of the issue.

It would actually be incorrect to state that either side was representing the denominaitonal position.

The SDA Church allows much more freedom of beleif and practice than is represented by some posting here.

[Gregory Matthews]

Paranoia: All of my comments on this aspect have been relatd to the United States of America, the legal enviornment in which we live and comments that people have made about the situaiton in the U.S.;l of A.

Comments have been been made related to Canada and other countries. I am not informed enough about the situations in any other countries to be able to make a comment related to them in regard to paranoia. Therefore, I have not done so.

As the Constitution and laws of the United States of America differ from the Constitutions and laws of other countries, I do not believe that direct comparisons should be made between the U.S and other countries.

[doug yowell]

There is a fine line between the 1st Amendmente (U.S. of A.) right to believe and practive one's religious beliefs and the right to enter into a business enterprise in an attempt to make money. Government cannot (or should not) regulate the first, but it clearly has the right to regulate the business activities the one has freely chosed to enter.

A photographer may refuse to take any wedding pictures. That same photographer may establish hours and days on which they will take wedding pictures. But, that photographer should not have the right to refuse to take wedding pictures based upon his/her personal ideas of discrimination.

I think you've made the case for Shane, GM. What you've been arguing is simple. Christians have the right to believe anything they want as long as it isn't practiced in the public arena where it conflicts with governmental policies.Strangely, homosexuality was once granted the right to be practiced privately but not publically and Christian opposition to it was allowed.Today homosexual behaviour is encouraged by the government and Christianity is being required to be practiced in private. I'm sure the founders of both this nation and this denomination would be proud of our "tolerent" progression. In fact you're arguing that if a person wants to make a living they can be discriminated against by those who criminalize discrimination. Shades of Rev. 13:17.Now it's the government's right to regulate an individual's private religious convictions? "Or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."Why does a business establishment have the right of "no shirt, no shoes,no service" but the photographer has no right to "no bride, no groom, no pictures'?

[Gregory Matthews]

Doug, I am simply argung the law as it exists in the U.S.

A few years back it would have been argued that a wedding photographer, due to religious beliefs related to the marriage of a mixed race couple would have the right to refuse to photograph the wedding of such a couple.

The law does not allow it.

An employeer may refuse to hire and retain an individual who can not perform the duties of the job due to religious belief.

True case: A hospital does not have to retain an LPN who will not provide the care ordered by an MD in charge of that patient and simply wants to heal the patient by prayer.

NOTE: I was personally invoved in the above case and know its details well.

If you are in the business of photographing weddings, do not discriminate. The State has the right to regulatle your business. That is not a religious right. No law makes it such.

[Gregory Matthews]

NOTE: In the above hospital case, the LPN was facing potential criminal charges that could have sent her to prison.

With my intervention, those charges were dropped and she was teminated from empoloyment.

Her reaction to me: I was the agent of Saten because I had participated in her termination from employemnt when I should have defended her right to be employed in that role at that hospital.

NOTE: My involvement with that LPN had been for more thant three (3) years where she had been employed at three (3) different hospitals and none had been able to use her in any role due to her religious beliefs which were sincere.

[Dr. Shane]

In my opinion, you seem to delight in erecting a so-called "straw-man" in somebodies field of corn and then destroying it.

[Dr. Shane]

A few years back it would have been argued that a wedding photographer, due to religious beliefs related to the marriage of a mixed race couple would have the right to refuse to photograph the wedding of such a couple

Apples and oranges there, Mr. Matthews. If you are going to take a position against the mainstream Seventh-day Adventist church, at least use a relevant argument. A black man cannot change the color of his skin. A gay man can change his behavior. It is not against anyone's religion to be black. It is against several religions to engage in gay sex. Please, retire those old, worn-out arguments that have failed to be convincing in the past. At least try to think up something we haven't heard before.

[Woody]

Gregory stated: "In my opinion"

And this brings an old thought to me: I've often thought that the day we cease having opinions ... should be the day we die.

[Dr. Shane]

Gregory stated: "In my opinion"

And this brings an old thought to me: I've often thought that the day we cease having opinions ... should be the day we die.

So as long as I preface my insults with "in my opinion" I can say anything?

Like these?

In my opinion, you are a liar.

In my opinion, you are a fat slob that eats too much.

In my opinion, your wife is a witch.

I think we need to keep some of our opinions to ourselves. We need not be so judgmental and learn to give others the benefit of the doubt.

[Dr. Shane]

It seems the name of the "It Is Written" episode is "The Same Sex Debate". It has Sean and his brother Kevin Boonstra discussing the impact of gay marriage on religious liberty, Kevin gives some examples of how gay rights has clashed with religious liberty and some hypothetical situations where it could be problematic.

"It Is Written" is a pretty mainstream Adventist broadcast. The concerns that Kevin Boonstra brought up in the episode are pretty much the same as the ones I have expressed in various threads here at Club Adventist. This episode confirmed for me that my thinking is inline with mainstream Adventist thinking. One can purchase this episode along with three other episodes on the DVD "Compassionate Without Compromise". Here is the link to the It Is Written store ---> Compassionate Without Compromise

[Woody]

In the sermon today .... my pastor stated that we needed to forgive and let some things slide off our backs and just forgive without making an issue of our misunderstandings or hurt feelings. I thought it was great advice.

[Dr. Shane]

"In your anger do not sin: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry" (Eph. 4:26) Very good advice.

[Woody]

I guess one would have to ask what you consider 'sin' to be.

[whatisthis]

First of all, grace and peace to you, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus!

I always thank God for all you.

Let's remember that there are two kinds of wisdom here. Man's and God's. The foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom.

Now, we all need to think of what we were when we were called.

Not too many of us were wise by human standards when we felt God calling us first! Not many were influential or of noble birth in fact, (or even well versed in nuances of law-school law.) He chose the lowly things of this world, isn't that kool? Some of us, like Saul of Tarsus were well-born, but not too many.

Not only that, God says He will call them "my people", who are not my people. When you feel that love of God drawing you, it's so wonderful because nothing will separate you from it. We are blessed because our transgressions are forgiven and the scars are being dealt with. He's got us covered by a plan that we don't have to be ashamed of. It's about power! Power for salvation for everyone who believes!

Here on Club A we could say we are obligated to everybody for the joy of this discussion about what to do in the path. We are obligated to participants who have come from Greek-influenced Acadamia, and to the folk who are not. We're obligated to the wise and witty and those of us who don't have a way with words but just love, and the love shows! And we're so eager for the gospel to have it's way in all our lives!

Now, this isn't exactly about the law of this world, in this sense: it could be said that the very fact that we have lawsuits among each other, might mean we are defeated already! This goes deeper and cleaner than human law can cut it, doesn't it?

As Christians we know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God. We aren't deceived. Neither the sexually immoral nor the idolater is going to get into heaven still that way. Adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexual offenders, theives-- or greedy people -- none of them will get in. There won't be any drunkards or slanderers who love to talk about them-- or about anybody's failings. There won't be any swindlers. And I don't know what category for which one, but some of you were like that, take your pick of your own poison. The thing is, you were washed! You were sanctified! You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God!

We're God's chosen. He loves us. He died for us.

God knew and cared about us in a Fatherly way while we were still sinners (just being conceived into Christ) and while we were babies in Him! Scattered as we are, we are a family in His love. It's the sanctifying work of the Spirit we have to thank for this! It's the sprinkling on of Jesus Christ's very lifeblood! Oh how I love God for this unspeakably beautiful gift to us!

We all get grace and peace--not just a little bit, not just when we are totally right, but abundantly. Wow, what a family!

The deal is that we get a living hope, and I just can't praise God the Father and our Savior Jesus enough for this!

Some of our brothers and sisters have been going through some real trials here, legal trials, yes, but more importantly we're seeing trials here that will refine folk like gold, it will make us let go of that stuff that isn't pure and go for the gold of His love with all our hearts and souls, --and we'll come out as gold when we're refined like this!

It's about Jesus. He's coming soon --so even though we don't see Him now, we're filled with an inexpressable and glorious joy! So prepare your minds, this is going to be about action! This is a time to be self-controlled and to set our hope fully on the grace that's to be given us when Jesus Christ is revealed! We aren't going to conform to the evil desires we had when we were in ignorance!

Well, I just had to say Happy Sabbath. Gotta love ya, because He loves me, as unworthy, totally unworthy as I am. And I'm so filled with the wonder of it, and I know that's how you feel too, 'cause you are my brothers and sisters!

[Dr. Shane]

OK, it is airing right now again on 3ABN Proclaim.

[Dr. Shane]

I guess one would have to ask what you consider 'sin' to be.

I think the Bible defines that.

[phkrause]

That was great Shane, I do have a copy of that program on DVD, that I recorded off of 3ABN. But it was good to watch and hear it again.

[whatisthis]

I've just seen a portion of it aired. Shane, I don't know everyone here. What's your position in a nutshell? And are you a Seventh Day Adventist member?