Members phkrause Posted August 21, 2010 Members Share Posted August 21, 2010 I thought that episode was the same one that was aired on 3ABN Proclaim this morning. I was wrong. The episode I watched this morning is one of the four episodes in "Compassion Without Compromise". I will contact the folks at It Is Written and find out if they have the episode aired this morning online yet. The episode that was on this morning was about how gay marriage infringes on religious liberty. Kevin Boonstra even stated he was concerned that gay marriage laws would force the Christian owner of a printing shop to print wedding invitations for a gay couple. Of course some here at Club Adventist would say such a Christian owner should just get out of the printing business. Not It Is Written. Our church is definitely concerned about the clash of rights between gay rights and religious liberty. Those are not concerned are out of sink with the denomination. Shane what time was this on, this morning. According to the schedule I have for It Is Written on 3ABN, this morning program was called "The Man Who Saw The End - John". Maybe you saw this on a different network and not 3ABN. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted August 21, 2010 Author Share Posted August 21, 2010 It was on "3ABN Proclaim" that is not the same channel as "3ABN". It was on this morning at 7:30am CT and then again at 2:30pm CT. I recorded it the second time so now I can better address its content. It is very good. It is exactly what I have been saying. It make me feel good to be in the mainstream of Adventist thought. I am not one that likes to be too far to either extreme. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted August 21, 2010 Members Share Posted August 21, 2010 OK that's why it didn't match with my programming. I don't get 3ABN Proclaim. Anyway does this program have a program # related to it like the one on your first post #1070? Than I can see if I've recorded this one, or if I have a copy of it. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted August 21, 2010 Author Share Posted August 21, 2010 I shut my recorder off before the credits at the end of the program so I didn't get the program number. The name of the episode is "The Same Sex Debate". I do not know when it was first aired. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted August 21, 2010 Author Share Posted August 21, 2010 I've just seen a portion of it aired. Shane, I don't know everyone here. What's your position in a nutshell? And are you a Seventh Day Adventist member? I am a Seventh-day Adventist. My position was captured well in this "It Is Written" program. Basically, I am concerned about gay rights clashing with religious liberty. Any legislation which is passed to protect gays or give them any type of special rights, needs to have provisions in it to protect religious liberty. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatisthis Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 Kevin Boonstra is an earnest and interesting Adventist lawyer, isn't he? The legal arena is pretty sticky on this one, particularly because a lot of the laws have been written on fly paper for those who espouse religious freedom, don't you think? Quote more later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 Originally Posted By: whatisthis I've just seen a portion of it aired. Shane, I don't know everyone here. What's your position in a nutshell? And are you a Seventh Day Adventist member? I am a Seventh-day Adventist. My position was captured well in this "It Is Written" program. Basically, I am concerned about gay rights clashing with religious liberty. Any legislation which is passed to protect gays or give them any type of special rights, needs to have provisions in it to protect religious liberty. Shame, Considering that Gay rights and same sex marriage are part and parcel of the underlying Great Controversy, why are you so optimistic that religious (or otherwise) freedom to proclaim God's truth in regards to homosexual activity will be protected by those whose main opponents are religious? While perhaps most gays are not in favor of the same sex marriage agenda they will not be the one's upholding, prosecuting,or interpreting it's legal applications.As you've already pointed out on several occasions, history has shown that when gay rights and religious rights are in conflict religious rights are the first to go. This latest court ruling is a prime example of what's ahead if the higher courts uphold this Federal judge's new interpretation of the constitution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 Kevin Boonstra is an earnest and interesting Adventist lawyer, isn't he? The legal arena is pretty sticky on this one, particularly because a lot of the laws have been written on fly paper for those who espouse religious freedom, don't you think? John Adams,founding father, signer of the Constitution, 2nd U.S. President wrote:"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadaquate to the government of any other." It was on this flypaper that the success of the Constitution was dependant rather than on a living,breathing interpretation by the areligious and immoral whims of it's sworn protectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatisthis Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 Don't personally see that as flypaper. Quote more later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted August 21, 2010 Members Share Posted August 21, 2010 I shut my recorder off before the credits at the end of the program so I didn't get the program number. The name of the episode is "The Same Sex Debate". I do not know when it was first aired. Thanks Shane I will also try to email 3abn and see what I can find out or I will also email IIW and see what they can tell me. I've recorded many IIW shows but don't recall this one. Wonder if its a newer one. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted August 22, 2010 Author Share Posted August 22, 2010 why are you so optimistic that religious (or otherwise) freedom to proclaim God's truth in regards to homosexual activity will be protected by those whose main opponents are religious? I am not optimistic that religious liberty will be protected. I feel good about being on the same page as mainline Adventism, but that is not to say I am optimistic about what the elite, men in black will decide to do with our religious liberty. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted August 22, 2010 Moderators Share Posted August 22, 2010 Shane. as I have stated, my comments on the law are related to the United States and not to other countries. I am not informed enough about the laws of other countries to be able to make a valid comment about their law. Your citation of the legal case was from the Canadian legal system, not the U.S. legal system. The comments of the Conadian attorney may be 100% correct about that system. I do not know. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted August 22, 2010 Moderators Share Posted August 22, 2010 Shane said: Quote: Apples and oranges there, Mr. Matthews. If you are going to take a position against the mainstream Seventh-day Adventist church, at least use a relevant argument. A black man cannot change the color of his skin. A gay man can change his behavior. It is not against anyone's religion to be black. It is against several religions to engage in gay sex. Please, retire those old, worn-out arguments that have failed to be convincing in the past. At least try to think up something we haven't heard before. Shane, I am not attempting to convince you. I do not think that I could regardless of the value of the arguement. The arguement that I proposed is simply one that is currently being presented in U.S. courts. You will note that it is in one of the cases that you have referenced, although you did not cite that arguement. As current arguement that is current in U. S. law, it is not a tired old arguemenet as you have stated, at least not in the legal community. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted August 22, 2010 Author Share Posted August 22, 2010 Comparing discrimination against gays to racial discrimination has been done over the past 25 years. It has been rejected by the voters every time a measure dealing with the issue is placed on the ballot. It has also been rejected in the court system. It is a tired, old argument that has failed to be convincing. It is simply a dishonest position for one to take and people can see that. A person's behavior and race cannot be compared. One cannot control their race. One can control their behavior. Quote: I do not think that I could regardless of the value of the arguement. I am convinced by the truth, regardless of its source. Not too long ago I had a disagreement with my wife. I shared it with my pastor and he agreed with me. The next day I shared it with a gay friend in AA and he agreed with my wife and put the issue in a light I hadn't seen it before. I promptly apologized to her. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted August 22, 2010 Author Share Posted August 22, 2010 my comments on the law are related to the United States and not to other countries. The principles of religious liberty have no borders. Laws can be changed so what the law is or what the law says should not impact our beliefs about religious liberty. The concern that we have, as a people, in regard to losing religious liberty due to the gay-rights agenda is a concern in many parts of the world. I know Adventists in Mexico and Canada are as concerned about losing religious liberty as those in the US. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted August 22, 2010 Author Share Posted August 22, 2010 Kevin Boonstra is an earnest and interesting Adventist lawyer, isn't he? Kevin Boonstra isn't so much the issue. He works for an organization which protects and defends religious liberty. The fact that It Is Written chose him to present this issue to its viewers goes to show that religious liberty is threatened and many influential, mainstream Adventists in leadership positions are concerned about the threat the gay-rights agenda poses to it. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted August 22, 2010 Moderators Share Posted August 22, 2010 Perhaps they should be concerned. They know their laws better than I. But, I (we in the US) may not need to be as concerned as they. Our religious liberties are granted to us by U.S. law and the Constitution. They are not granted to us in civil life by the Bible. Some of the concerns related to our religious liberties are are simply paranoia. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted August 22, 2010 Author Share Posted August 22, 2010 Some of the concerns related to our religious liberties are are simply paranoia. We know that many influential Adventists in leadership positions in the US, such as those at Liberty Magazine and It Is Written, disagree with this. According to Gregory Matthews, those folks are just paranoid. Shoemaker, stick to thy last. I am sure Gregory Matthews does a great job of comforting the sick and dying. But he certainly is operating outside of his realm of expertise when discussing religious liberty. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted August 22, 2010 Moderators Share Posted August 22, 2010 Originally Posted By: Gregory Matthews Some of the concerns related to our religious liberties are are simply paranoia. We know that many influential Adventists in leadership positions in the US, such as those at Liberty Magazine and It Is Written, disagree with this. According to Gregory Matthews, those folks are just paranoid. Shoemaker, stick to thy last. I am sure Gregory Matthews does a great job of comforting the sick and dying. But he certainly is operating outside of his realm of expertise when discussing religious liberty. Actually, Shane, you could not be more wrong on both counts. First of all, I have never stated that those folks are paranoid. Secondly, I am not operating outside my area of knowledge in the area of religious liberty. It would be better for you to know what you are talking about rather than to make such wild statements. It is true that there are some who would agree with some of what is said and so do I. There are those who disagree with soem of what is said, and so do I. Shane, you have a habit of taking specific statements that I have made and generalizing them well beyond where I would go. You make other statements about me that clearly show you ignorance of the facts. you do that because you make generalized assumptions that are clearly wrong. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted August 22, 2010 Moderators Share Posted August 22, 2010 Shane said: {quote]I am sure Gregory Matthews does a great job of comforting the sick and dying. Shane, I take your comment that you have previously made as sarcastic, even if it is literally true. But, I question whether or not it is literally true--that you believe I do this well. In any case, this is not what I do. I find your characterization of what I do to be offensive. It is based upon a sterotype that evidently exists in your mind. It simply presents you in a manner that suggests that you do not know what I do. Well, I will shut up and not say anymore at this time. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted August 22, 2010 Moderators Share Posted August 22, 2010 I said: Quote: Some of the concerns related to our religious liberties are are simply paranoia. I stand by my statement as being an accurate one. Shane then went on to say: Quote: We know that many influential Adventists in leadership positions in the US, such as those at Liberty Magazine and It Is Written, disagree with this. According to Gregory Matthews, those folks are just paranoid. No where did I apply my statement above to the people that Shane has listed above. In addition, to say that a specific concern stems from paranoia is not the same as saying that the person who holds that view is paranoid. In the field of mental health they are not one and the same. One may hold a belief that stems from paranoia and not be paranoid. The last is a mental health diagnosis and the first is not. By the way, Shane, do not state that I am operaging outside of my expertese in making these statements. I am not. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted August 22, 2010 Author Share Posted August 22, 2010 I have never stated that those folks are paranoid. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted August 22, 2010 Author Share Posted August 22, 2010 I take your comment that you have previously made as sarcastic, even if it is literally true. My comment about you being good at what you do has no trace of sarcasm. I am sure you carry a burden for our nation's veterans and do a commendable job in comforting them and helping them get the resources they need. I have every confidence that you are an asset to our nation and our denomination. That doesn't mean you are qualified to make statements about gay rights, religious liberty or evolution. But I am sure you are a dedicated servant to God and our nation. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted August 22, 2010 Author Share Posted August 22, 2010 to say that a specific concern stems from paranoia is not the same as saying that the person who holds that view is paranoid. Sounds like double talk to me. I would expect that from some partisan politician with dubious motives. But not here in this arena of ideas. I like straight talk. That is what I am about. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted August 22, 2010 Author Share Posted August 22, 2010 I have a dislike for people that attack the Adventist church and what it stands for and then pretend to be good Adventists. I will never rest from defending God's remnant church until I rest in Christ. The Adventist Review is a good magazine. Internet posting don't mean much at all. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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