Why Men Hate the Church

[CGMedley]

Is there something about the church that turns the male species off? Writer Bonita Shields explores this topics in this week's Adventist Review.

http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=673

[SivartM]

I would be just as interested in a manly man church where they don't talk about relationships or do any of that "reading" stuff as I would be in a dainty, feminine church where everyone sits in a circle and talks about their feelings. Why do we always have to contort everything to fit into our little gender categories? If you're male, you can't have feelings, be poetic, be artistic, or get lost in thought. You have to assert your dominance, know mundane sports trivia, and shallowly chase after every attractive female.

I did not ask to have myself necessarily associated with any of these things.

[teresaq]

wow, sivartm, heavy!! :)

[WayneV]

QR Frame: To all

After reading the article attached to this post, a reply is warranted. This reply is uncomfortable for me to write because I normally agree with what Ms. Shields has to share--especially when she is preaching the Word of God.

A question to start--Was this article meant to be a review of Murrow's book, or was the author attempting her own explanation of why men hate church? The article left me confused in this area. If it was a review of the book, what makes the author of the review qualified to usurp Murrow's conclusions? If the article was supposed to be Shields' own explanation, where does she express her own ideas regarding why men hate church. While I have not read Murrow's book, the tone of this article seems to be in the form of a "hit piece" and offers no constructive ideas.

One more question, without a detailed study, how can we take seriously the analysis of a woman on the question of why men hate church? I found this ironic.

Shields takes a few quotes from Murrow's book, whether in context or not we do not know, and concludes, "So, according to Murrow, men don’t like church because they can’t read well, speak well, pray well, learn well, or love well. If I were a man, I think I would be offended by that picture of my gender." Shields is setting up a straw man in her conclusion when she makes a blanket statement about "men" and determines the qualifier to be whether men can do something "well". The quote from Murrow's book regarding the skills of reading, speaking, and praying out loud in church is applied to the "average man". Moreover, Morrow qualified those skills against whether the average man is "going to be as good at that as most women", not-if they could do it "well". Educational research would support Morrow's conclusion (see: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14175229 ).

Shields goes on to state, "But to think that all men want their church decorated with trophy bucks, camping equipment, and can endure only a 10-minute sermon seems a little shortsighted to me." Where did this conclusion come from? It was not implied in any of the Murrow quotes that she used in the article.

Regarding how hard satan is working to gain souls, Shields writes, "And I believe we see it in how men—husbands and fathers—are being led to believe that church is irrelevant to their lives." Also, in the conclusion to the article, "And Satan will do all in his power to make them shirk that responsibility. Even by making them believe the community called church that can help them grow spiritually is only for women and passive men." What I wonder is, who is leading men to believe such? Since most American men have been to church as some point in their adult lives (Barna), it stands to reason that it is the churches themselves have a hand in propagating this belief.

Finally, Shields includes the following statement in her article in a way that is seemingly meant to be derogatory, "I do not believe that “men hate church” because the church is too feminine (WayneV-it is), pastors are sissies (WayneV-several are), and men’s learning capabilities and attention spans are smaller than women’s (WayneV-depends on whether we are fishing or sitting in church <grin>)." Yet, some of the most popular books, workshops, and seminars for Christian men deal directly with the feminization and emasculation of the church. Witness the book being reviewed, PromiseKeepers, John Eldridge's Wild at Heart books, workshops, and boot camp.

Shields says, "We can do more; we know that women outnumber men in church attendance." Therefore, my last question is, what does Ms. Shields suggest be done? She is adept at tearing apart the suggestions of others. Where is the "constructive" part of her constructive criticism?

Agape`

[SivartM]

the church is too feminine (WayneV-it is)

Again... why do we have to assign gender characteristics to everything? What is feminine about church? Is it the whole "personal relationship with Jesus" thing that I'm not supposed to be able to handle?

Maybe one day women will be writing about why they hate church because it's too masculine (wait... wasn't it like that for the majority of its existence?).

[WayneV]

First, I found the presumptive or in the least misleading.

Secondly, where are all these men who supposedly feel that way?

Thirdly, I saw no facts presented.

Before I reply to this, would you please clarify. What was it that you found presumptive/misleading, the article or my reply?

Agape`

[WayneV]

Originally Posted By: WayneV

the church is too feminine (WayneV-it is)

Again... why do we have to assign gender characteristics to everything?

[SivartM]

Because men and women are different. Thus, they perceive and process everything differently. If the Church does not recognize this and tailor the form (not substance) of their ministry to appeal to both sexes, then we risk alienating one or the other. As much as psychological academics in the 1980's desired it to be so, we are not unisex! I presume you have men's bathrooms seperate from the ladies bathrooms at your church. Why do you want them to have to deal with everything else being the same?

[WayneV]

I am not seeing the cry for "segregated" and "gender specific" programming so much as for complementary gender blended (that's bLended, not bended. lol) programming. Si?

[WayneV]

Whew! I am so glad you clarified. Carry on. lol

Agape`

[Overaged]

All this gender stuff is a bit whacky

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

My father didn't join the church for years, but it wasn't because of any "gender issue." It was because some Adventists he had met up with were impolite, if not downright rude and offensive in talking with him. It was only after meeting up with Adventists who had something in common with him and/or treated him as if his work and interests were worthwhile that he became interested in the church.

[Guest]

All this gender stuff is a bit whacky

Whacky and pointless. This is why I don't read the Adventist Review. No spiritual meat. NONE!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

All this gender stuff is a bit whacky

Whacky and pointless. This is why I don't read the Adventist Review. No spiritual meat. NONE!

That's right Yeah. I come to Club Adventist for my meat of the day.

[Woody]

Yep. That AR .... a bunch of vegetarians. No meat whatsoever

[Neil D]

Yep. That AR .... a bunch of vegetarians. No meat whatsoever

Spoken in true pirate tones...right? Arrrrrh!

Oh, shiver me timbers! "AR" is Adventist Review, not a pirate 'tone'....

Arrrrh! My apologies for mistakenly assuming that there was a pirate among us....

[Gail]

I just previewed Mark Gungor's "Manly Man" Mens' Conference DVDs. They are saying the exact same thing there abdout the lack in the mainstream Christian churches. So I appreciate feedback here on the topic.

I do agree that I'd like to see more men in the SS lower divisions. I've said so numerous times since the days when I worked down there. It's the same with our schools- I'd love to see more male teachers in the elementary grades to provide male leadersthip to the boys.

The points made in these DVDs are that churches and schools tend to cater to females according to the way they think.

[Overaged]

It's not "Arrrrr" it's "Arrggggg!"

[LynnDel]

It's not "Arrrrr" it's "Arrggggg!"

Not that this is vitally important or even related to this thread, but...

See the Pirate Dictionary

I believe ol' Pirate Neil knows what he is talkin' about.

[Overaged]

LOL, that's funny LD. I had no idea there was such a thing as a Pirate Dictionary. I was just having a little fun with Neil the Pirate in training here tho. If he was expressing agreement; I guess he was right. I once saw a pirate movie where a pirate used the "Arrgggg" as he was attacking someone at the supper table with his axe! Don't know if that's in The Dictionary or not!

[Tallmark]

A woman is not going to know what men's needs are. To get an accurate view, you'd need to take a survey. I don't know why many guys won't ask directions. I will.

There's a eunuch in my church who is a former pastor and a Sabbath School teacher who says: "If mamma ain't happy, nobody's happy." A fruitcake like him is going to have a different take than a man who is the head of his wife.

[whatisthis]

Well, I'm with those who think the title is presumptive, I know quite a few wonderful men who love church. I also know quite a few who don't love church who are of both genders. I can remember a time when, while I loved the church, I couldn't stand going to church. I'd get tears in my eyes and want to just run--and no, I'm not a man!

But I'm back. I realized when I saw some people on their way to church in Bisbee, AZ how far I'd come away from church-- and even the things church stood for, and that I really did want to be special like that again. So I went back. By that time I wasn't worried about who was a hypocrite, I was worried that I wasn't reclaimable, but I remembered my Great Grandma's hours on her knees and decided God would not forget those prayers so I came back.

And being in church is very often the most joyous thing that could have happened to me--especially on the days when suddenly I just don't want to go. That can happen to anyone, suddenly, any time. I think the devil has something to do with it! He couldn't love us loving church a whole lot. But anyway, I get there, and I go in as far as I can bring myself to. If it's the parking lot, I sit in the parking lot! Always, every time, something good has happened, first as I'm praying about going in, God lets me know he always accepts me no matter what. That is the hardest thing about going to church for many, not feeling acceptable some way. Second, I've often met some other timid crying-inside soul who was scared to go in too, and we prayed together. And third, God has amazing surprises inside church prepared. I can't list all the wonderful things that happen for me in church. We have a prayer team in our church that is all comprised of people who once felt they didn't/couldn't ever fit into church. That's my church, but it can be yours! Pray your way through this! Everyone should get to have a spiritual and a friendly spiritual church encounter at least once a week, if not preferably through the week.

Right now I'm in a bit of a crisis, that's been going on two weeks. I'm so busy studying that I'm not studying, praying, and reaching out with my fellow church members the way I have been and the way I still want to. I just went back to college, and the classwork is really important to me, but I want to put Jesus first, and not last. So hey, pray for me, will y'all!

[Neil D]

LOL, that's funny LD. I had no idea there was such a thing as a Pirate Dictionary. I was just having a little fun with Neil the Pirate in training here tho. If he was expressing agreement; I guess he was right. I once saw a pirate movie where a pirate used the "Arrgggg" as he was attacking someone at the supper table with his axe! Don't know if that's in The Dictionary or not!

Heave Ho, you bulg rat...Unless'n you knows about how a pirate talks, you best be on yur best behavior...Otherwise,I may be sendin' you to Liz fer a good whippen and she may be thinkin' that walkin' the plank 'n sendin' you to yer new bunk matey...davey jones...

...and havin' been the Capt'n of the Pirate forum, I thinks I can hold me own against the likes of you, land lubber!

[Neil D]

A woman is not going to know what men's needs are. To get an accurate view, you'd need to take a survey. I don't know why many guys won't ask directions. I will.

There's a eunuch in my church who is a former pastor and a Sabbath School teacher who says: "If mamma ain't happy, nobody's happy." A fruitcake like him is going to have a different take than a man who is the head of his wife.

Oooh my....a "real man"...

My grandmother once said that the man should be the head of the family, but that wives should know how to 'turn the head of a man'....

If any male has the attitude of being the 'head of his wife', he probably likes the idea that he has created an image to himself thru his wife...and any woman, who takes a man with this attitude, will be either down trodden herself, or is much wiser than the man will ever know....

[John317]

Wonderful post, whatisthis!! I know exactly what you are saying. And yes, I'll be praying for you, and I'm sure many others here will be praying as well.