United Nations to appoint Earth contact for aliens

[John317]

That's only if we consider the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy speculation. I'm not giving you my opinions. I know nothing except for what God has revealed through His prophets. If we decide they knew nothing for certain or that they are wrong, then almost anything can be true in terms of extra-terrestrials. But the Bible and the SOP are clear that this world is the only one in all God's universe that has rebelled against Him.

I believe God created the whole universe, and of course, that would include any so-called "aliens."

Can you show by what reasoning we could conclude we should accept extra-terrentrials as beings from outer space while at the same time maintaining that the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy tell us the truth about the universe?

[Bravus]

It's speculation that people from unfallen worlds would never come here, though, even if we take all the rest as gospel. (Show me chapter and verse, Scripture or EGW and I'm happy to change that view.) So yes, God created all life, and yes, this is the only fallen world: there's still no absolute barrier to them coming here.

[Overaged]

And if the aliens are not at all humanoid, and have no views at all on the Sabbath? I mean, they're very unlikely to be Star Trek bumpy foreheads... even beautiful ones.

Guess we'll see, but your post above completely rules out the possibility of real aliens, John317: just seems like making a definitive ruling based on a whole lot of speculation.

But, isn't it also "speculation" that there are "aliens?" The United Nations doing this, is just about as far-fetched as anything I have heard in a long while. Don't they have anything better to do?

[Bravus]

Well, if we're going by EGW, she says there are.

[Overaged]

The United Nations is not going by "Ellen White."

[Bravus]

No, but you're crossing logic lines in this discussion.

The United Nations is going on the fact that, since we first began to be able to detect planets around other stars maybe 15 years ago, we've detected hundreds. We've just recently (in the last couple of years) become able to detect planets as small as earth (before that we could only detect gas giants the size of Saturn or so), we've found dozens of those and are finding more of them all the time.

So based on naturalistic assumptions and probability, the United Nations (based on the views of scientists) are suggesting that it's more probable that there are sentient beings elsewhere in the universe, hence this appointment.

But the discussion has moved on, with the assertion that if 'extra-terrestrials' ever appear they'll really be disguised demons, sent to challenge the Sabbath doctrine.

That's where EGW comes in, and where I was being very precise in calling certain things 'speculation' from *within* that frame of reference.

[SivartM]

In the news today: they've discovered the very first habitable exoplanet!

[Overaged]

I realize the scope of the argument lines being drawn here; but my point is that these lines are based upon assumptions re "sentient beings" in a context that suggests we will have some sort of control over how said beings would choose to contact us. I mean really; how do we know said beings would choose to go to this UN dude first? That's why I made the smart-aleck comment about them coming to see me first. There are so many assumptions here that the whole thing makes absolutely no sense.

I believe that in the same sense the Bible depicts some hear only "thunder" when God is speaking; people will see "aliens" when "angels" come to us with a "message." "Aliens" as in the sense intended by the UN is very dubious at best.

[Overaged]

LOL, I would like to go there for two weeks.

[Bravus]

http://www.bravus.com/blog/?p=2055

[Overaged]

"potentially" supports life would be a key clue in determining the extent of assumption here when they use the word "inhabitable."

It should also be noted that when using the word "aliens" Ellen White, in all 52 examples, was talking about people here on Earth who were not Christians.

Much prayer is necessary to successful effort. Prayer brings power. Prayer has "subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, . . . turned to flight the armies of the aliens" (Hebrews 11:33, 34). {HP 83.2}

There are, essentially, two lines being drawn here, one on the Biblical side, one on the secular reasoning side. Attempts have been made before to make it all one line, but I imagine such a thing will result in the same scenario as past attempts at blurring the lines. John 3:17 has a good point which you have not yet taken away from.

[John317]

... So yes, God created all life, and yes, this is the only fallen world: there's still no absolute barrier to them coming here.

OK, but based on what those sources say, there's no reason to think that unfallen beings would want to visit the only planet in the universe that is in rebellion against God and experiences death and all the other results of sin. God is in control of those planets and the beings who inhabit them, and I can't see any reason they would have a desire to visit us. They know everything they want to know about us already. Millions of angels of God are on the earth recording and watching everything that goes on. What reason, then, would sinless beings-- who have direct communication with God--- have for coming to the only planet that has sided with Satan?

Your thoughts?

[Guest]

I believe they (unfallen worlds) can watch what's going on here without actually coming here and making their presence known.

The universe of heaven had watched with intense interest the entire life of Christ—every step from the manger to the present awful scene of momentous interest. The unfallen worlds were watching the result of this controversy. {CTr 267}

[John317]

It's speculation that people from unfallen worlds would never come here, though, even if we take all the rest as gospel.

I am very interested in knowing some of the possible reasons that you believe sinless beings from unfallen worlds would come to earth.

[Guest]

There are, indeed, extraterrestrial civilizations out there, somewhere, but religion has corrupted the world with myths and superstitions about the Kingdom of the Stars, leaving us with a distorted and fanciful picture of angels floating on clouds, magic words, "miracles", etc. What we will see, I expect, is a highly advanced technology that no Bible writer could describe without the more scientific terms that we are accustomed to hearing in our day.

What? You don't believe in miracles? God spoke, and created the universe. You can call that technology if you want to, but I don't think that's what it is.

[John317]

Excellent point. I agree.

Assuming that Ellen White is correct, why would those sinless beings want to visit the earth? They would be entering into a sinful environment where Satan and millions of his fallen angels "rule" most of mankind. There's disease and death all around us.

What purpose would it serve for them to visit? Could they come here without God's permission? Would they come to help us in some way? God already came Himself and spent 30 years with us.

And if it's a matter of learning something, what would those beings learn from a visit that they can't learn from God Himself or from the angels who are here constantly?

Those are some of my questions.

[Dr. Shane]

Earth can accurately be described as the hell hole of the universe. Probably not attracting too many tourists.

[John317]

I don't accept the argument that just because there's water, there is likely to be life. There is only life because God made it. I could easily see water existing on some planets without there being any life on them at all.

But did He put micro-organisms on those planets? We don't know. Yet I would seriously doubt it. Water on either the moon or on any other planet could mean there are some forms of micro-organisms there, but couldn't both water and micro-organisms possibly travel from the earth?

If we were to find a type of machine there, would we conclude that it just happened to evolve from a simpler form? Or would we assume immediately that some intelligent being made it?

Yet aren't all of the life-forms we know of more complex than machines?

[Bravus]

We're still getting a lot of crossed lines of reasoning in this thread.

There's the issue of the United Nations' reasoning for appointing this person. That is founded in what scientists are telling them. Given naturalistic/evolutionary assumptions it's just a probability thing: if there are billions of planets in the 'goldilocks zone' of their solar systems, life elsewhere is pretty much inevitable under those assumptions. We can't really fault the UN for not using our creationist reasoning.

Then there's the separate matter of God's creation of life and when and where He has chosen to do that, complicated by EGW's comments about life on unfallen worlds. That's a separate set of assumptions, and it was within those assumptions that I was questioning the automatic belief that any alien we ever see will automatically be a demon rather than an actual alien.

[Dr. Shane]

Let's put on our evolutionary cap and pretend we believe in evolution. If there is intelligent life on another planet somewhere, how do we think they could travel to our planet? Some advanced technology that can travel the speed of light?

[Bravus]

Well, we don't even need to be evolutionary to do that: God could have created other lifeforms who have now developed advanced technology. But yeah, let's run with the premise.

Interstellar travel is very difficult at the best of times, and relativistic time dilation just makes it trickier.

The planet just discovered is 20 lightyears away. If something could accelerate at 1 g (i.e. just use acceleration to simulate normal gravity onboard) it could get to a significant fraction (96% or so, from memory) of the speed of light in a year. So call it 30 years for the journey over all, even at sublight speeds. That's doable, though your astronauts would leave at 30 and arrive at 60, and would be unlikely to be able to ever go home (and when they got there would find that their home planet was centuries older, but that's a whole other story!) (That assumes they live only as long as us, but as we're seeing here, advanced technology leads to life extension.)

Of course, most of the potentially life-bearing planets are much, much further away than that, and it would take hundreds of years. Again, assuming lifespans on the human scale, there are a couple of options - some kind of suspended animation or 'generation ships' in which whole generations are born and die in space on the way.

Faster-than-light travel is impossible as far as we know... but we thought faster-than-30 miles an hour travel was impossible less than 150 years ago, so who knows...

And of course, if a species is immortal (which we would assume beings from unfallen worlds to be) all bets are off in terms of travel time - a few hundred or thousand years in a ship are nothing compared to eternity.

[Bravus]

Well, the one last century was in 1905 and 1915. Not that it works in neat 100 year cycles, but I reckon we're about due!

[Overaged]

We're still getting a lot of crossed lines of reasoning in this thread.

There's the issue of the United Nations' reasoning for appointing this person. That is founded in what scientists are telling them. Given naturalistic/evolutionary assumptions it's just a probability thing: if there are billions of planets in the 'goldilocks zone' of their solar systems, life elsewhere is pretty much inevitable under those assumptions. We can't really fault the UN for not using our creationist reasoning.

I was thinking that, so far, in this thread, we do not yet see any clear line of reasoning for why the UN would do this. Do they know something we don't? I mean, given the very very little we actually know about IF there are aliens, and WHAT their nature and purpose would be - it seems a very strange assumption on the part of the UN to think that said "aliens" would just go to someone appointed by the UN like this?

[Bravus]

"If the alien won't go to UN guy, UN guy will go to the alien"

(Half)Seriously, yes, the aliens my choose to make their first contact by probing randoms in the Midwest, but at some point if they make real contact it would be a prolonged process, and at that point this contact person would be flown in. Haven't you seen 'The Day The Earth Stood Still'? (the old, good one I mean)

[John317]

Then there's the separate matter of God's creation of life and when and where He has chosen to do that, complicated by EGW's comments about life on unfallen worlds. That's a separate set of assumptions, and it was within those assumptions that I was questioning the automatic belief that any alien we ever see will automatically be a demon rather than an actual alien.

I am very interested in knowing some of the possible reasons that you believe sinless beings from unfallen worlds would come to earth.