Knowing Your Enemy: Satan's Attacks On SDAs

[Dr. Rich]

After reading just about everything that EGW has written and said, it is my OWN opinion that her words are much like Paul's, in that one can pick and choose what they want from what she wrote. The words "May it never be" can be used by both sides of the isle. The words of both just cause more confusion.

This is why I have chosen to follow the foundational words of Jesus Himself as I am now finding that many others have done the same thing. After all, isn't everything else foolishness?

[Twilight]

This is why I have chosen to follow the foundational words of Jesus Himself as I am now finding that many others have done the same thing. After all, isn't everything else foolishness?

I would say it is foolish to deny the work and ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Which is what in effect you are doing.

You and your friends have decided who was inspired and who wasn't.

But I think we are all pretty much clear on where you stand, and I personally consider it totally heretical and totally against what Jesus Himself taught.

When you deny the men and women Jesus inspired, you deny Jesus.

You have been fooled into thinking that you support Christ, but you are in fact tearing His work down.

Sadly.

[Musicman1228]

Twilight said, "You and your friends have decided who was inspired and who wasn't."

Isn't this what you are doing, deciding for yourself who was inspired and who wasn't? If you agree with everything that the SDA church says is doctrine then you are in agreement with that belief and it becomes your own. Where did Jesus say that we were to believe everything that someone who has placed themselves in authority over us says?

If you believe that the SDA church has all the truth that is fit to print then, fine. What you are doing is giving the church the power over your salvation, and by doing this you revoke the power of the Reformation in your own life. You then place the SDA church in the same position as was the Catholic church during the dark ages; and I am sure you don't want to go back to those 'bad old times'.

Make up your own mind as to what is true, that is what God gave you that wonderful mind for. Look as EVERYTHING, compare it with what Jesus said, throw out that which is different from those words, and keep that which is left; THAT is Truth.

[Dr. Rich]

Twilight wrote: "But I think we are all pretty much clear on where you stand, and I personally consider it totally heretical and totally against what Jesus Himself taught."

Hey Twilight, that's fine with me. I am honored to know that 'we all' know where I stand. Thank you! However, to clear some things up, when you wrote "totally against what Jesus Himself taught" that makes me raise my eye lids some.

Please do me, and for that matter, all of us a favor and show me (don't just tell me as anyone can do that) and prove me wrong by using the words of Jesus Himself--PLEASE? Thanks, for I sure don't want to be wrong--would you?

[Overaged]

After reading just about everything that EGW has written and said, it is my OWN opinion that her words are much like Paul's, in that one can pick and choose what they want from what she wrote. The words "May it never be" can be used by both sides of the isle. The words of both just cause more confusion.

This is why I have chosen to follow the foundational words of Jesus Himself as I am now finding that many others have done the same thing. After all, isn't everything else foolishness?

Reading everything that Ellen White wrote and understanding it all are two different things. I don't think you have accomplished both.

The words of Jesus are throughout the Bible; Old and New Testament. The Scriptures "cannot be broken," and that is direct from Jesus. (John 10:35). Satan hates Adventists; and anyone else who truly seeks Jesus and Bible truth. I don't see how you can ever prove otherwise. The devil won't bug his friends, he already has them converted.

We know our enemy the best; by knowing Jesus the best. (John 17:3). The more light we have, the more it contrasts with the dark. The battle with evil forces constantly grows sharper, more sinister. You would never in a million years with all your clever semantics and retro-apologetics be able to convince me otherwise.

I am absolutely convicted that there is only one solution to the problem that we all face, individually, and denominationally. One provision only, for our deep need and this hour of trial. And that is, the power of The Holy Spirit, and the mighty outpouring of the Latter Rain in all our lives and service. This promised provision, falling upon the Heralds of Heaven's Last Message is our supreme necessity.

[Twilight]

Twilight said, "You and your friends have decided who was inspired and who wasn't."

Isn't this what you are doing, deciding for yourself who was inspired and who wasn't? If you agree with everything that the SDA church says is doctrine then you are in agreement with that belief and it becomes your own. Where did Jesus say that we were to believe everything that someone who has placed themselves in authority over us says?

If you believe that the SDA church has all the truth that is fit to print then, fine. What you are doing is giving the church the power over your salvation, and by doing this you revoke the power of the Reformation in your own life. You then place the SDA church in the same position as was the Catholic church during the dark ages; and I am sure you don't want to go back to those 'bad old times'.

Make up your own mind as to what is true, that is what God gave you that wonderful mind for. Look as EVERYTHING, compare it with what Jesus said, throw out that which is different from those words, and keep that which is left; THAT is Truth.

Basically, you are stating that you have more knowledge, more perception than the whole of Christianity for the last 2000 years.

Even the early church Fathers, who were in direct contact with Paul etc.

I accept the Bible Canon because it is consistently sound.

I accept the SDA doctrines because they reflect the consistency of the Bible.

You are basically saying that you do not accept the Bible.

In that case, in my eyes, you are not Christians.

Because to be a Christian, means to base your faith on Gods Inspired Words.

Maybe you guys should become muslims, they teach something similar to you...

What makes them uninspired we ask?

The same thing that makes you guys uninspired.

Totally illogical and inconsistent doctrinal positions, that put works as the centre of the Gospel.

I am not interested in their doctrine and I am certainly not interested in yours.

[Twilight]

Twilight wrote: "But I think we are all pretty much clear on where you stand, and I personally consider it totally heretical and totally against what Jesus Himself taught."

Hey Twilight, that's fine with me. I am honored to know that 'we all' know where I stand. Thank you! However, to clear some things up, when you wrote "totally against what Jesus Himself taught" that makes me raise my eye lids some.

Please do me, and for that matter, all of us a favor and show me (don't just tell me as anyone can do that) and prove me wrong by using the words of Jesus Himself--PLEASE? Thanks, for I sure don't want to be wrong--would you?

You have been shown over and over again Dr. Rich.

By many here.

I am not about to give you opportunity to once again spread a false gospel, by giving time to your un-Christian teachings.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

hmm. I'm not entirely convinced that people who live by the Word of the Old Testament and the words of Jesus in the New Testament would be too far off the mark. I have a hard time understanding the Pauline letters, and, at least for now, I tend to focus on the Psalms and the gospels.

But that's just me..

[John317]

... Look as EVERYTHING, compare it with what Jesus said, throw out that which is different from those words, and keep that which is left; THAT is Truth.

I agree that truth will not contradict what Jesus said. It's not a matter of being different from those words but of contradicting them. I think we have to distinguish between someone's private intepretation of what Christ said and what Christ actually said. The test is whether someone clearly contradicts the words of Scripture, not whether they agree with or contradict someone else's interpretation.

[John317]

The words of Jesus are throughout the Bible; Old and New Testament. The Scriptures "cannot be broken," and that is direct from Jesus. (John 10:35). Satan hates Adventists; and anyone else who truly seeks Jesus and Bible truth. I don't see how you can ever prove otherwise. The devil won't bug his friends, he already has them converted.

We know our enemy the best; by knowing Jesus the best. (John 17:3). The more light we have, the more it contrasts with the dark. The battle with evil forces constantly grows sharper, more sinister.

Very good points. I completely agree. Thanks for posting this.

[Twilight]

hmm. I'm not entirely convinced that people who live by the Word of the Old Testament and the words of Jesus in the New Testament would be too far off the mark. I have a hard time understanding the Pauline letters, and, at least for now, I tend to focus on the Psalms and the gospels.

But that's just me..

Ask yourself this Pam.

Has Paul ever contradicted Jesus?

This is the claim that MM DR.R and WF are actually making.

But it comes from a simple error on their part.

That you must first work really hard, then you get the Holy Spirit.

Now because that is their foundational error, they interpret the Bible through that error.

Anything that disagrees with that error, must go.

As Paul was given the specific ministry of combatting this error, which is not a new one, they have to eject Paul from the Bible.

Mark :-)

[John317]

Has Paul ever contradicted Jesus?

This is the claim that MM DR.R and WF are actually making.

But it comes from a simple error on their part.

In all due respect for my friends, Dr. Rich, Wayfinder, and Musicman, it has already been shown many times before on the Adventist Forum that they are mistaken in many of their beliefs regarding Paul and the other NT books which they reject. They see contraditions and heresy in Paul's writings because they have basic misunderstandings and misinterpretations of Paul's writings. To take one example, they believe that Paul's teachings on salvation and rightousness by faith mean that Christians don't need to obey God's law. But of course nothing could be further from the truth. Paul does not teach antinomianism. For instance, see 1 Cor. 9: 21 where he says clearly that he is not outside the law of God as Christ taught it.

[Overaged]

That's OK if you feel this way about various books in the Bible. It would be rare to feel totally confident with all books and all Bible writers. Hopefully, the over-all picture you get of God and His love for you will make up for that. I know that's how it is with me.

[John317]

After reading just about everything that EGW has written and said, it is my OWN opinion that her words are much like Paul's, in that one can pick and choose what they want from what she wrote. ...

Have you read the Manuscript Releases? I beleive there are about 22 volumes.

There are also collections being made of her sermons and talks.

I believe the problem is that people pick and chose what they want from what she wrote rather than considering everything she said on a particular subject. People often do the same thing with the Scriptures.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Has Paul ever contradicted Jesus?

This is the claim that MM DR.R and WF are actually making.

But it comes from a simple error on their part.

In all due respect for my friends, Dr. Rich, Wayfinder, and Musicman, it has already been shown many times before on the Adventist Forum that they are mistaken in many of their beliefs regarding Paul and the other NT books which they reject. They see contraditions and heresy in Paul's writings because they have basic misunderstandings and misinterpretations of Paul's writings. To take one example, they believe that Paul's teachings on salvation and rightousness by faith mean that Christians don't need to obey God's law. But of course nothing could be further from the truth. Paul does not teach antinomianism. For instance, see 1 Cor. 9: 21 where he says clearly that he is not outside the law of God as Christ taught it.

But that is all founded on this idea they want to teach that we have to "earn" the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

That is their foundational error.

Hopefully they will correct me if this understanding of their view is wrong.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Has Paul ever contradicted Jesus?

This is the claim that MM DR.R and WF are actually making.

But it comes from a simple error on their part.

In all due respect for my friends, Dr. Rich, Wayfinder, and Musicman, it has already been shown many times before on the Adventist Forum that they are mistaken in many of their beliefs regarding Paul and the other NT books which they reject. They see contraditions and heresy in Paul's writings because they have basic misunderstandings and misinterpretations of Paul's writings. To take one example, they believe that Paul's teachings on salvation and rightousness by faith mean that Christians don't need to obey God's law. But of course nothing could be further from the truth. Paul does not teach antinomianism. For instance, see 1 Cor. 9: 21 where he says clearly that he is not outside the law of God as Christ taught it.

Thank you for you respect, I do appreciate it, as I appreciate you taking the time to dialogue with me.

I see contradictions and heresy in Paul's writings not because I misunderstand what he says but for precisely the opposite: I fully understand what he said because I believe that he meant what he said, and I don't make excuses for it.

Using the example you cited in 1 Cor. 9:21, taken in context with what came just before and after:

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 1 Cor.9:20-22.

Taken at his own words Paul says that he will become anything for anyone in order to promote his gospel. He specifically says he is NOT UNDER THE LAW, that the Law does not apply to him, but he will keep the Law so as to win people to his gospel. This text does not say that we must keep the law, far from it. It does say that he has become ALL THINGS to ALL PEOPLE so the "HE" might save some. Here he clearly says the it is what HE is doing that will save people. That is blashpheme.

So, yes, I believe that what Paul teaches is that not only do you not have to keep the Law for Salvation in order to be saved but that Jesus Christ became the END of the Law for Righteousness, for all who believe (Rom.10:4), thus doing away with that very Law. Jesus NEVER said anything like this. In fact He said the opposite:

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.  John 14:15.

Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. John 14:23.

Keeping the Commandments demonstrates your love for God. Therefore, if you don't keep them you don't love God. Paul teaches that in order to truly love God you don't need to keep the commandments, all you need do to accept Jesus Christ as your savior and you are then saved by grace through faith (belief).

If this does not show conflict between what Jesus said and what Paul said I don't know what will.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

After reading just about everything that EGW has written and said, it is my OWN opinion that her words are much like Paul's, in that one can pick and choose what they want from what she wrote. ...

Have you read the Manuscript Releases? I beleive there are about 22 volumes.

There are also collections being made of her sermons and talks.

I believe the problem is that people pick and chose what they want from what she wrote rather than considering everything she said on a particular subject. People often do the same thing with the Scriptures.

John,

Years ago my wife and I were singing a Friday night vespers at an SDA retirement village near Loma Linda. A friend of our came and did the little devotional in the middle of our program using the Bible. After the program a dear lady of an age (over 80) came to us and proudly showed us what she brought to the vespers; a 'red book' authored by EGW. (I don't remember the title.) Then with great dignity and satisfaction said that in her life she had read ever word that EGW wrote at least twice. In talking with her she honestly believed that by doing this she would be saved, because EGW was God's prophet and everything she wrote was the truth.

We were very gentle and congratulated her on her achievement,ourselves at the time believing that EGW was indeed a true prophet of God. But on the way home we wondered how many times in her life did she read the words of Jesus, or the Bible. I have no doubt that she will be saved and in the Kingdom, because God will honor her effort. Yet, how sad it is when good hearted people believe that knowing the words of Ellen White are more important than knowing the words of the Master.

Are not the Words of Jesus Christ in the NT and the Words of God in the OT sufficient for salvation? Unfortunately, many on this forum do not believe so, and place their salvation squarely in the hands of human beings that may or may not have the authority from God that they think they do. Don't you think it would be wise to know for sure if this is true?

[Twilight]

But on the way home we wondered how many times in her life did she read the words of Jesus, or the Bible.

Why should she need to read the Bible MM.

You have already made it clear that you do not accept it and that you think vast swathes of it are inspired by Satan.

How would that then benefit her?

If your view is correct of course...

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

But on the way home we wondered how many times in her life did she read the words of Jesus, or the Bible.

Why should she need to read the Bible MM.

You have already made it clear that you do not accept it and that you think vast swathes of it are inspired by Satan.

How would that then benefit her?

If your view is correct of course...

Now you are being patronizing, which is beneath you.

So you believe that EGW actually IS equal to or greater than the Bible? And then, do you believe that any other writer either inside or outside the Bible is equal to or greater than the words of Jesus Christ? If you don't believe this then why will you not allow me the choice to believe the same as you? If you do believe that both Paul and/or EGW are equal to or greater than Jesus Christ I do feel sorry for you; because you have just admitted to having another god before the God of Creation. Ouch!

[Dr. Rich]

You are right--the scriptures can't be broken. Jesus said this about the oldt testament. Or did you forget?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Ask yourself this Pam.

Has Paul ever contradicted Jesus?

I don't know. I don't know everything that Jesus ever said, because it wasn't all written down. And I don't know what Paul said either. The Pauline letters (to me) are confusing. It's like he's writing too fast and doesn't complete his thoughts. Maybe he had ADHD. I don't know. (And if someone is thinking of asking, no, I can't give you an example, atm...sorry..)

[John317]

That's partly because the letters were usually dictated to a secretary, and also because in speaking, Paul often would use long perenthesis'. A few words would make him think of a related idea and he would address it before returning to the main theme. For instance, 1 Cor. 3: 7-18 is really a perenthesis. He also uses rhetorical devices common in his day but which modern readers aren't familiar with. All these kinds of things can make it difficult for people to understand him. One thing you could do to make it earier to understand is read his letters in two or three different modern language translations or paraphrases. You might start out the Message Bible or Phillips translation or the Good New Bible.

[John317]

You are right--the scriptures can't be broken. Jesus said this about the oldt testament. Or did you forget?

The God who inspired and gave us the Old Testament predicting Christ's first coming is the same God who inspired and gave us the New Testament descibing and explaining that first coming. If it was important to have a pure Scripture that predicted the first coming, how much more important it is to have pure scripture for the whole world explaining it and also predicting the culmination of Christ's mission to save the world.

To say that God allowed Satan to write a good portion of the NT would make God a liar, just as any judge who allows lies to be introduced to the jury is dishonest and not to be trusted. If man's court of law only accepts the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, we can be sure God is no less interested in giving us the the truth and nothing but the truth.

God is trust-worthy and doesn't change the way He works. We can depend on Him and on His word. His word is not mixed with the word of the devil. It is Satan who wants people to think that the Bible is partly God's inspired word and partly inspired by the Devil.

These are two of Satan's main attacks against the SDA church-- to get us to have no faith in the Bible or in Ellen White as God's prophet.

[John317]

I see contradictions and heresy in Paul's writings not because I misunderstand what he says but for precisely the opposite: I fully understand what he said because I believe that he meant what he said, and I don't make excuses for it.

Let's check it out.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Using the example you cited in 1 Cor. 9:21, taken in context with what came just before and after:

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 1 Cor.9:20-22.

Taken at his own words Paul says that he will become anything for anyone in order to promote his gospel.

He's making the point that he has made himself the servant of everyone in order to win them to Christ. He is saying that as long as it doesn't go against the law of God as Christ taught it, he is willing to live like those whom he working to save. I think all of our missionaries should follow the same principle.

But Paul is not saying that he will become anything for the purpose of promoting his gospel. He won't disobey God. Paul specifically says that circumcision or uncircumcision is doesn't count for anything, but obeying God's commandments is what really counts. 1 Cor. 7: 19.

Therefore it is false to say Paul is saying he will do anything and become anything just in order to advance his message. His experience in Acts and his letters disprove that idea.

If Paul would do or say anything to win people to Christ-- even doing what he knew to be wrong-- why was Paul so badly persecuted? He could have avoided persecution by simply doing what was popular.

If Paul was a phoney as you claim, why did he live for Christ in such a way that it brought upon him such terrible persecution and finally his execution? A phoney would certainly have avoided going through these things. This is strong evidence that Paul was sincere. People don't suffer and die for what they know to be lies.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

He specifically says he is NOT UNDER THE LAW, that the Law does not apply to him, but he will keep the Law so as to win people to his gospel.

Yes, the law he is talking there about is the Mosaic law, specifically the ceremonial law and the laws regarding the sacrifices; the Jewish Jew.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

This text does not say that we must keep the law, far from it. It does say that he has become ALL THINGS to ALL PEOPLE so the "HE" might save some. Here he clearly says the it is what HE is doing that will save people. That is blashpheme.

You make a big mistake here, Musicman. Paul is perfectly well aware that only Christ saves people. When he speaks in verse 22 of "saving some," he is using it in the same sense as "winning" people to Christ (vv. 19, 20, 21). Paul has already made it clear that only Christ has the power to save anyone (1 Cor. 1: 13-17).

He's plainly talking about persuading people to give their lives to Christ.

Continued

[John317]

Continued

So, yes, I believe that what Paul teaches is that not only do you not have to keep the Law for Salvation in order to be saved but that Jesus Christ became the END of the Law for Righteousness, for all who believe (Rom.10:4), thus doing away with that very Law. Jesus NEVER said anything like this.

Christ said the same thing in Matt. 5: 17 as Paul said in Romans 10: 4. Paul is not saying the law of God no longer exists after Christ's death. He is saying rather that the purpose of the law was to bring us to Christ. The Greek word "end" (telos) also means "goal." It means that God is the goal of the law. He fulfills it and shows us how it is to be kept. But Christ's fulfillment the law of the law didn't bring it to an end or mean that people can violate it at will without any consequences.

Originally Posted By: Musicman

In fact He said the opposite:

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. John 14:15.

Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. John 14:23.

Keeping the Commandments demonstrates your love for God. Therefore, if you don't keep them you don't love God.

Yes, and Paul said the same thing. He said that circumcision or uncircumcision are nothing but what counts is faith working through love. Faith working through love results in obedience to God. Paul says that obeying God because of our faith is the only thing that really matters. 1 Cor. 7: 19 and Romans 2: 5-16.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Paul teaches that in order to truly love God you don't need to keep the commandments, all you need do to accept Jesus Christ as your savior and you are then saved by grace through faith (belief).

This is absolutely false and is totally contrary to his plainest language in Romans 6: 1,2, 15; Romans 8: 1-4 and Romans 2: 5-16.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

If this does not show conflict between what Jesus said and what Paul said I don't know what will.

Nothing will, because when you stop misinterpretating Paul, you will see that the Apsotle of Christ agrees with His Lord. I think this post is a good example of how you continue to misunderstand Paul and force him to say things he's not saying.