Knowing Your Enemy: Satan's Attacks On SDAs

[John317]

I believe Ellen White's instructions mean that we are to ignore those who have heard the message and have had many years in which to allow the message to sanctify them but who have instead chosen to rebel against it. She is saying it would be a waste of time to continue to implore them to do what they know is right. The Bible teaches the same thing. We know that when God sees that people are determined to rebel against Him, there comes a time when He withdraws His Holy Spirit from them and lets them go.

Quote:

John, what grounds do you have for such belief, when the context is clearly not helping poor people who use these substances.

My previous statement was related to the quote in 12 MR 346, not the quote in 1 T 224, 225.

If we read the entire article or letter that Ellen White wrote in both sources, I believe her counsel will be seen as valid.

In 1 T 224, she talking about the necessity of allowing people to reap the consequences of their actions so that they will learn from them. If a parent's child has been told over and over again not to do something, but he persists in doing it anyway, sometimes the best thing the parent can do is allow the child to reap the consequences of disobedience in order to learn that it's best to obey. God operates on the same principle. See Proverbs 1, for instance.

I've posted the entire passage for those who are interested in reading it.

[fccool]

In this context moderation kills.

See Genesis 3.

Gen 3 is a direct command from God not to do something. Clear and precise... no ifs or buts. There's no way to "moderately" eat that fruit.

Yet, God did not say... don't go near it. He did not say, avoid looking at it. He did not say, stay 100 feet away from it. The point was that they probably could have eaten from the tree right next to it... no problem.

What Pharisees would have done is to make up a series of laws that would make sure that they don't eat the fruit... and they would call breaking these laws to be a sin. I.E.

- Don't come 100 feet next to it

- Don't mention it's name aloud

- Don't draw it on the paper

So, breaking these laws would be sin, while the "moderation point" was being mature enough to resits temptation to eat it.

The example in Deuderonomy, where God permits people to drink Shekar... moderation point... don't get drunk.

Moderation point with eating meat... don't be a glutton. It's not avoiding meet all together, like health message sets people out to do. If that was the case, then Christ would not eat meat.

What you end up doing is to compare drinking coffee to Eve eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil (which was not about the issue of eating at all... it could have been not crossing some line). That's in fact what I call immature Christianity. Thinking that God is somehow outraged because people sitting around somewhere in England, drinking tea with crumpets.

[John317]

What does drinking coffee or tea, or using tobacco has to do with making poor economic judgments? Is there some sort of a link between using these things and being poor?

I see the answer in the following paragraphs:

Quote:

Some who are poor in this world’s goods are apt to place all the straight testimony upon the shoulders of the men of property. But they do not realize that they also have a work to do. God requires them to make a sacrifice. He calls upon them to sacrifice their idols. They should lay aside such hurtful stimulants as tobacco, tea, and coffee. If they are brought into straitened circumstances while exerting themselves to do the best they can, it will be a pleasure for their wealthy brethren to help them out of trouble.

Many lack wise management and economy. They do not weigh matters well, and move cautiously. Such should not trust to their own poor judgment, but should counsel with their brethren who have experience. But those who lack economy and good judgment are often unwilling to seek counsel.

Apparently these people were using the money they were getting from other church members to buy tobacco, tea and coffee instead of using the money on things they needed. Ellen White is saying that if those particular people used better judgment, they wouldn't need others to support them.

I don't think she's implying that all the poor are poor simply because of a lack of good judgment. Her article is dealing with a particular situation among the early Adventists at a time when they were just learning that tobacco was harmful and shouldn't be used. In the early days of the movement, it was common for Adventists to take smoke-breaks during church or between Sabbath School and the worship service. (See Mervyn Maxwell's history, Tell It To the World.)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Because he was a great Christian thinker. That's what I can't stand about the whole "Babylon" thing....

What the Bible teaches about Babylon and its fall is true and needs to be understood despite what we perceive to be errors that some people make in its application.

Yes, C.S. Lewis was a part of spiritual Babylon, but God has sincere and honest people in spiritual Babylon, and we shouldn't ignore everything those people have to say, although we have to be careful what we accept. He said a lot of things that we can learn from. I especially appreciate his book, Screw Tape Letters, which shows how Satan and his fallen angels attack believers.

It is a good book. :-)

[John317]

Moderation point with eating meat... don't be a glutton. It's not avoiding meet all together, like health message sets people out to do. If that was the case, then Christ would not eat meat.

It's not a sin to eat the clean meats but there's no doubt that God wants us to eat the diet that God originally intended for us to eat. Based on what God revealed to us through Ellen White, those who will be translated without seeing death will have left off meat eating altogether.

The animals are not as healthy as they were in Christ's day, and studies show that people who eat meat are more likely to contract cancer.

Eating a lot of animal flesh is not the best way to have clear minds for distinguishing between truth and error.

[fccool]

Quote:

In 1 T 224, she talking about the necessity of allowing people to reap the consequences of their actions so that they will learn from them. If a parent's child has been told over and over again not to do something, but he persists in doing it anyway, sometimes the best thing the parent can do is allow the child to reap the consequences of disobedience in order to learn that it's best to obey. God operates on the same principle. See Proverbs 1, for instance.

And the consequences of drinking tea is poverty? I don't quite understand how you jump from people who insist on their habit of drinking tea, and defend it as "not a sin"... to don't help them financially because of that habit?

I really don't see a parallel here between disobedient child, and such action? Adults are much better at discerning and analyzing the consequences of certain actions.

If we call doing anything that can potentially harm the body to be a "sin", then at times it's a sin to simply live in large city. It's a slippery slope that you don't want to go down, because it never ends.

That's why the principle of self-control and moderation is much better than beating people over-the-head with extra-Biblical preferences. I.E. you are not truly saved unless you stop smoking or drinking coffee. It's immature to think that God of the universe would be so childish as to deny people relationship with him because of current habits that takes time to overcome.

We look at God as this girlfriend who says, I will not marry you unless you are perfect. It's silly! It's not love! Love gives... it does not expect. We are marrying God because He is perfect, and through that relationship He pulls us up to His level. That's true love!

True love gives what's needed, and protects against abuse... even self-abuse. It would never push a person into self-abuse situation. It's like begging a certain person not to kill themselves, and then saying .... ah, what's the use? Go ahead... pull the trigger.

[fccool]

The animals are not as healthy as they were in Christ's day, and studies show that people who eat meat are more likely to contract cancer.

Eating a lot of animal flesh is not the best way to have clear minds for distinguishing between truth and error, as well as for having self-control.

That's why I choose to find and buy meat of the healthy animals that are raised without antibiotics and in natural way. So, instead of repeating the same old mantra, why not step outside the box and review the situation here?

The substitutes that ABC store peddling today have equally damaging results IMHO that unclean meat can have. You can read about it here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-smith/genetically-modified-soy_b_544575.html

Most of the foods that I find in our local potlucks are not the foods that I would have in my diet. Much of these lack fresh veggies and fruit, and high in carbs... and overall would cause obesity and health problems... and it's vegetarian food. So, let's not set up meat as the universal problem of our health. You know it, and you still try to defend it . It's quite ironic.

If we want to push health message, then we should do it in proactive way, beginning with church potlucks, and excercise parties and clubs, instead of going around and ridding people's diets of meet and replacing it with even more unhealthy substitutes which are chemically modified to mimic meat.

[Dr. Rich]

John317, why are you giving us extra biblical information that does not even make sense such as meat eaters will not get to heaven without dying? This is totally nonsense and adding to Revelation what is NOT there.

Can't you stick to the bible for a change? Tell me, where are the righteous when the 7 plagues are poured out on the wicken during the last five months in earth history.

And John317, it isn't a sin to eat unclean meats either, is it? It might be a silly thing to do, but it is not a sin.

[Musicman1228]

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” Matt.15:11.

Here Jesus put a lid on the whole issue. Does it matter what we eat or drink to God? Of course not. When we get to heaven will anything there damage us in any way by our eating it or drinking it?

I heard a very provocative sermon at our church a while ago that was given by an expert in bio-ethics. He stated that the position of the SDA church was abstinence, but the Bible teaches moderation. He stated from the pulpit that the Bible does not say that we cannot drink alcoholic beverages, it says 'don't get drunk'. (That admonition is only for Priests serving in the Temple-look it up.) Then he said that since we are a part of a church that makes abstaining from alcohol a hard and fast rule we should abide by that rule even though the Bible teaches differently. I took exception to that part.

Our church has made the determination that the 'wine' that Jesus created at the wedding at Cana was non-alcoholic, but this is not supported by ANY facts in Scripture. Jesus made the BEST wine, and that would have had to be 'the good stuff' not grape juice, otherwise the steward of the feast would not have made the comment he did.

So my recommendation is this; grow up and fact facts. What we eat or drink is MEANINGLESS to God. Smoking is terrible, but it will NOT keep you out of the Kingdom of Heaven. Neither will having a glass of wine with dinner, or having a nice 12 year old single malt scotch after a meal.

For confirmation of this please look up in the OT what God says about tithing, and what should be done with your tithe as part of honoring God. You will be stunned. It is no wonder our church does not want people reading and studying for themselves to find the truth of these things. This is a lesson you will NEVER see in the Quarterly.

[John317]

John317, why are you giving us extra biblical information that does not even make sense such as meat eaters will not get to heaven without dying? This is totally nonsense and adding to Revelation what is NOT there.

Can't you stick to the bible for a change? Tell me, where are the righteous when the 7 plagues are poured out on the wicken during the last five months in earth history.

And John317, it isn't a sin to eat unclean meats either, is it? It might be a silly thing to do, but it is not a sin.

I'm writing among and for Seventh-day Adventists, who believe in Ellen White as God's prophet.

Ellen White said that those who are preparing for Christ's return will leave off eating dead animals. I believe this. You may not believe it and that is OK. I'm not forcing people to believe anything, but I do have a right and a responsibility to write what I believe is true as long as it does not violate the rules of the Forum.

When the 7 last plagues are poured out on the wicked just before Christ's return, the rightous will be in hiding awaiting the return of Jesus. There will be a death sentence made against them so that anyone who finds them may kill them. But the Lord protects them so that Satan won't be able to take their lives. Human probation will have closed by this time.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. If we eat unclean animals after we know what the Bible teaches and after we are convicted that it teaches the truth on this subject, then it is sin for us to go ahead and do what we realize is wrong. For me to eat pork, or other meat product of pigs and other unclean animals, would be a sin because I realize it's not God's will for me to eat it. He has better food for my body. He doesn't want His people eating the garbage disposals of this earth. Pigs and the other unclean animals were intended to eat the grabage and refuse.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

John317, why are you giving us extra biblical information that does not even make sense such as meat eaters will not get to heaven without dying? This is totally nonsense and adding to Revelation what is NOT there.

Can't you stick to the bible for a change? Tell me, where are the righteous when the 7 plagues are poured out on the wicken during the last five months in earth history.

And John317, it isn't a sin to eat unclean meats either, is it? It might be a silly thing to do, but it is not a sin.

I'm writing among and for Seventh-day Adventists, who believe in Ellen White as God's prophet.

Ellen White said that those who are preparing for Christ's return will leave off eating dead animals. I believe this. You may not and that is OK. I'm not forcing people to believe anything, but I do have a right and a responsibility to write what I believe is true as long as it does not violate the rules of the Forum.

When the 7 last plagues are poured out on the wicked just before Christ's return, the rightous will be in hiding awaiting the return of Jesus. There will be a death sentence made against them so that anyone who finds them may kill them. But the Lord protects them so that Satan won't be able to take their lives. Human probation will have closed by this time.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. If we eat unclean animals after we know what the Bible teaches and after we are convicted that it teaches the truth on this subject, then it is sin for us to go ahead and do what we realize is wrong. For me to eat pork, or other meat product of pigs and other unclean animals, would be a sin because I realize it's not God's will for me to eat it. He has better food for my body. He doesn't want His people eating the garbage disposals of this earth. Pigs and the other unclean animals were intended to eat the grabage and refuse.

Add to that list "clean animals" that are "unclean" and you have just wiped out most of the supermarket shelves.

Even clean meat was supposed to be a certain standard before it was eaten.

Biblically...

[John317]

The following paragraphs have to do with Satan's attacks on the Seventh-day Adventist Church:

One thing is certain: Those Seventh-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan's banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the Testimonies of God's Spirit. 3 SM 84 (1903); also LDE 177

The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Prov. 29: 18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence in God's remnant people in the true testimony.-- 1 SM 48 (1890); also LDE 177, 178.

The enemy has made his masterly efforts to unsettle the faith of our own people in the Testimonies... This is just as Satan designed it should be, and those who have been preparing the way for the people to pay no heed to the warnings and reproofs of the Testimonies of the Spirit of God will see that a tide of errors of all kinds will spring into life. 3 SM 83 (1890); also LDE 178.

It is Satans' plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which incurable and ends in destruction. 4 T 211; also LDE 178

[Twilight]

The following paragraphs have to do with Satan's attacks on the Seventh-day Adventist Church:

One thing is certain: Those Seventh-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan's banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the Testimonies of God's Spirit. 3 SM 84 (1903); also LDE 177

The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Prov. 29: 18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence in God's remnant people in the true testimony.-- 1 SM 48 (1890); also LDE 177, 178.

The enemy has made his masterly efforts to unsettle the faith of our own people in the Testimonies... This is just as Satan designed it should be, and those who have been preparing the way for the people to pay no heed to the warnings and reproofs of the Testimonies of the Spirit of God will see that a tide of errors of all kinds will spring into life. 3 SM 83 (1890); also LDE 178.

It is Satans' plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which incurable and ends in destruction. 4 T 211; also LDE 178

I have yet to find a disagreement between the SOP and the Bible, which is remarkable.

On that basis, I accept the SOP as fully inspired.

With that in mind, to reject the SOP is often really rejection of Biblical principles.

Take the example of the Vegetarian Issue.

That can be shown from the SOP, but it can also be shown clearly from scripture.

But those that reject the SOP on this point, also reject the scripture.

The authority for the SOP is found in the Word of God.

To reject that as an Adventist is to reject the Word of God, which authorises it as genuine.

[John317]

In 1 T 224, she talking about the necessity of allowing people to reap the consequences of their actions so that they will learn from them. If a parent's child has been told over and over again not to do something, but he persists in doing it anyway, sometimes the best thing the parent can do is allow the child to reap the consequences of disobedience in order to learn that it's best to obey. God operates on the same principle. See Proverbs 1, for instance.

Originally Posted By: fccool

And the consequences of drinking tea is poverty? I don't quite understand how you jump from people who insist on their habit of drinking tea, and defend it as "not a sin"... to don't help them financially because of that habit?

I don't think Ellen White is suggesting that those people were poor simply because they drank tea or coffee or used tobacco. But she's talking about the use of their money and their unwillingness to "sacrifice their idols." She's saying they accept money from the church to help them live, yet they are spending their money for things that do harm to themselves and that God has revealed He doesn't want them to practice. She also mentions that these were people who were unwilling to seek and follow the advice of their brethren in the church.

She goes on to say, "Their unwise management affects the church. It takes means from the treasury of God which should have been used to advance the cause of present truth." Please read the rest of her statement in 1 T 224, 225.

She is saying that it doesn't help them if we enable them to practice their unwise decisions. We do this by keeping them from experiencing the unpleasant consequences of their actions after they reject counsel that if accepted would have helped them avoid those problems.

I think it's a good lesson for parents to learn also. Some parents will protect their son or daughter from the natural consequences of their actions and behavior when the best thing they could do for their child is allow him to learn from his mistakes. There are parents who continue to do this even up the time their child is an adult.

I believe Ellen White was right in her counsel here. It's supported by the principles laid down in both the Gospels and in the epistles of saint Paul.

[Guest]

I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, and coffee." 1 T 225

So it is clear that we are to ignor both entire church organizations and their people ... and also those individuals who ignore and reject our health message.

The key word here is "persist". It doesn't say you don't witness to these people. How ridiculous can one get? Are you in a contest Woody?

[John317]

I really don't see a parallel here between disobedient child, and such action? Adults are much better at discerning and analyzing the consequences of certain actions.

I don't mean a little child. I was referring to parents who enable their teenagers and even adult children to continue wrong behavior by keeping them from experiencing the natural consequencs of their poor judgments. When they do this, it's hard to see how they expect their children to grow up and be a responsible adult. I think there's somewhat the same principle involved in what Ellen White wrote in 1 T 224-225. Another principle involved is that the church has a responsibility to spend tithe money wisely and for the sake of spreading the gospel.

[Dr. Rich]

Hmmm? (Someone must be living in the twilight zone.) As an Adventist, I have used my brain to investigate fact verses fiction and I have an overload on the fiction part.

As for Satan hating Adventists, he does not hate those who are spiritually dead because they are no threat to him. He does not hate those who follow the crowd because they also are no threat to him. He does not hate the servants of God who have been deceived by the woman found in Rev. 2:18-26 because they too are no threat to him. And he does not hate those who believe "the flesh is weak and the spirit is willing" because they are christian zombies who can't make a choice to obey or not God because they believe once saved, always saved.

For those of us who use the foundational words of Jesus to build their belief on are the ones that Satan hates because they are a serious threat to him. Problem is, only a few will ever exist because the road is narrow and few will be the ones on it as found in Rev. 3:4,5. I don't see too many people today who are diligently seeking truth in the REAL testimony of Jesus and keeping all of the ten commandments.

[John317]

If we call doing anything that can potentially harm the body to be a "sin", then at times it's a sin to simply live in large city. It's a slippery slope that you don't want to go down, because it never ends.

That's why the principle of self-control and moderation is much better than beating people over-the-head with extra-Biblical preferences. I.E. you are not truly saved unless you stop smoking or drinking coffee. It's immature to think that God of the universe would be so childish as to deny people relationship with him because of current habits that takes time to overcome.

I agree with a lot that you say here, but I do think it's important for us to practice the principle that our bodies are the temple of God and that He wants us to keep our bodies in good health by doing what we know is right.

We can't tell people that they can't be saved if they are drinking coffee or smoking. At least no one should ever say this, much less think it.

And I agree with you that God doesn't deny people relationship with him because of habits that take time to overcome. But let's not make this truth a reason for not sincerely praying for Christ's power to overcome those habits and make the needed changes in our lives to help make us better witnesses to the gospel.

[John317]

....As for Satan hating Adventists, he does not hate those who are spiritually dead because they are no threat to him. He does not hate those who follow the crowd because they also are no threat to him. He does not hate the servants of God who have been deceived by the woman found in Rev. 2:18-26 because they too are no threat to him.

I agree with these words, Dr.Rich, but I know we have a different interpretation on the woman found in Rev. 2. But beyond that, we agree here.

Satan doesn't worry about, or hate, those who he feels are already doing what he wants them to do. He hates those he feels are a threat to his plans.

[Dr. Rich]

Right on John317. Satan can only keep existing if no one has the truth and therefore the bride can't be ready. Since the servants for the bride are sleeping, Satan is very happy. But there is shortly coming a time when they will be woken up by the servants for the Groom (144k). Then the foolish maids will be the worst enemies of the righteous because they once were with the wise maids.

So grab a picture of this: Look around at all of the members of your church you are friends with and you will see some of those who will be your worst nightmare. Do the same with your family. This is serious business because those foolish maids will want to bring you down to their level, thinking that all they needed was faith that they would be saved by grace.

[fccool]

The following paragraphs have to do with Satan's attacks on the Seventh-day Adventist Church:

One thing is certain: Those Seventh-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan's banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the Testimonies of God's Spirit. 3 SM 84 (1903); also LDE 177

The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Prov. 29: 18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence in God's remnant people in the true testimony.-- 1 SM 48 (1890); also LDE 177, 178.

The enemy has made his masterly efforts to unsettle the faith of our own people in the Testimonies... This is just as Satan designed it should be, and those who have been preparing the way for the people to pay no heed to the warnings and reproofs of the Testimonies of the Spirit of God will see that a tide of errors of all kinds will spring into life. 3 SM 83 (1890); also LDE 178.

It is Satans' plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which incurable and ends in destruction. 4 T 211; also LDE 178

John, the truth is that I've never really agreed with a lot of of her statements, and I'm doing so on Biblical grounds. Does it mean I'm a follower of Satan, or that Satan is using me? This is what you seem to imply.

[skyblue888]

[Dr. Rich]

Sky--what is it that you agree with? Do you agree that all of those who eat meat will die before going to heaven?

Do you agree that anything that is not of faith is a sin? If so, where is this found in the words of Jesus?

Do you agree that the righteous will be hiding when the 7 last plagues are poured out? If so, where is this found in the bible?

Do you agree that those who KNOW or believe that EGW was a false prophet will not be in heaven?

Do you agree that those who KNOW or believe that Paul was a false apostle will not be in heaven?

[Guest]

Do you agree that those who KNOW or believe that EGW was a false prophet will not be in heaven?

Do you agree that those who KNOW or believe that Paul was a false apostle will not be in heaven?

I believe that is the most likely scenario, yes.

[Musicman1228]

Is it even remotely possible that the opposite is true? That believing in EGW and Paul and practicing what they preach would cause someone to NOT be in heaven?

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matt.7:13-14.

Who is it that enters the wide gate and what does the road to destruction look like? Would not the wide gate be analogous to what the majority of Christians today believe to be true? This wide gate cannot be speaking of other non-Christian religions because Jesus Himself never spoke to that issue. Those that are outside of the camp of spiritual Israel are ALREADY on Satan's side, and need no other help in becoming lost. It was ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel that Jesus came, and then only to save THEM.

If there are truly very few people that find the narrow gate which leads to life then what would the beliefs of these people look like? Would those beliefs look like all of the other Christian beliefs that are so dearly held by the Church? Just being in the SDA church does not protect you from not entering the wide gate. Just being an SDA does not automatically cause you to enter the narrow gate which leads to life.

If the majority of Christians are entering the wide gate, and the majority of Christians believe in Paul over the words of Jesus Christ then could it be that they are entering the wide gate and not the narrow one? If the majority of SDA's believe in EGW AND Paul could it not then also be said that they are entering the wide gate as well?

It is just possible (as remote as it now seems) that those of us who no longer believe as Christians in either Paul, or as SDA's in EGW are the only ones that will enter the narrow gate just because it seems so unlikely that it is true, because we do not follow the path of least resistance?