Dr. Rich Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 Richard, (or anyone else), what is so special about the Adventist church and why would Satan hate the Adventists? That is--since it has become clear that you believe about the the same thing as with all of the other christian churches and denominations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted October 29, 2010 Members Share Posted October 29, 2010 Richard, (or anyone else), what is so special about the Adventist church and why would Satan hate the Adventists? That is--since it has become clear that you believe about the the same thing as with all of the other christian churches and denominations? What does that mean Dr. Rich? How do you mean this? I see the Adventist Church as being quite a bit different than all the others. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 29, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2010 ....Do you agree that those who KNOW or believe that EGW was a false prophet will not be in heaven? Do you agree that those who KNOW or believe that Paul was a false apostle will not be in heaven? It's one thing to believe that a book or two attributed to Paul might not have been written by him, but it is entirely different to attribute to the devil the work of the Holy Spirit in the life and writings of the apostle Paul. People who believe Ellen White and Paul and other major portions of the Bible are of Satan are not listening to the Holy Spirit. In the same way, we can be sure that when people say that Jesus either doesn't exist or that he was a liar, they are listening to a different spirit, not to the Holy Spirit. The New Testament books are self-autheticating. That is why the majority of the early church accepted them as from God. It wasn't because they were commanded to accepted those books-- it was because the congregations throughout the world generally accepted them as inspired by God. They saw how those books changed their lives for the better and they could sense the work of the Holy Spirit as they studied those books. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 29, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2010 ... what is so special about the Adventist church and why would Satan hate the Adventists? Because the SDA church knows the truth about Satan's plans and because it proclaims the Third Angels Messages. And because he knows that God raised up the SDA church for the purpose of helping to prepare a people to be ready for Christ's return. Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich That is--since it has become clear that you believe about the the same thing as with all of the other christian churches and denominations? This, of course, is a reference to the acceptance of Paul and the rest of the books of the NT. That fact by itself doesn't mean we believe the same things as the rest of the Christian churches. That should be obvious to anyone who knows the history and theology of the SDA church. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 29, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2010 John, the truth is that I've never really agreed with a lot of of her statements, Yes, I know. Originally Posted By: fccool and I'm doing so on Biblical grounds. People reject the SDA view of the state of the dead or the Sabbath on what they consider biblical grounds. As far as my own experience goes, virtually everyone who leaves the SDA church and all Christians who reject Ellen White claim to do so on the basis of what they believe the Bible teaches. I'm not saying you don't have legitimate reasons to disagree with some things Ellen White said, because I don't know what things you are talking about and what biblical reasons you are giving. But I'm sure you recognize that people often disagree with biblical doctrines on the basis of what they understand (or rather misunderstand) the Bible to say. Originally Posted By: fccool Does it mean I'm a follower of Satan, or that Satan is using me? This is what you seem to imply. No, I am not saying that all disagreements with Ellen White are due to Satan's work. However, I do believe that all SDAs who reject her are being deceived by Satan. Similarly, all people who reject the Bible and the gospel are deceived by Satan. Do you beleive that Satan has any reason to make the Seventh-day Adventist Church the object of his hatred and attacks? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 30, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2010 Is it even remotely possible that the opposite is true? That believing in EGW and Paul and practicing what they preach would cause someone to NOT be in heaven? Not all who beleive in EGW or Paul will be saved. 2 Peter 3:15-16 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, [16] as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. NOTE: People can twist things written by both Paul and Ellen White to their own destruction. Therefore just the fact that people believe in those two prophets of God doesn't guarantee people salvation. But if people believe in their messages and follow what God has revealed to them through those messages, we can be sure they will be saved, becasue they both point people to Christ as their Savior, and it is Christ who saves us, not Paul and not Ellen White. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 About what percentage of Adventists believe in EGW? Same question for apostle Paul? How many Adventists are there today (about)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 John, I agree with your last sentence, it IS Jesus Christ that saves us. However, as you said many have twisted the words of Paul and EGW "to their own destruction". Have you notice how easy it is to twist the words of those who are liars, and how difficult it is to twist the words of those that tell the truth? It is relatively easy to twist the words of Paul and EGW because their words are relatively ambiguous and filled with double meanings. On the other hand it is VERY difficult to twist the words of Jesus Christ as He spoke them to His eyewitness disciples, because Jesus is God and according to Him His words and meanings would remain intact and sure because the Holy Spirit would preserve them (the words) for those who would believe in what they (eyewitness disciples) would pass to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 30, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2010 About what percentage of Adventists believe in EGW? Same question for apostle Paul? How many Adventists are there today (about)? I don't know the exact figures for the answer to your question, but certainly the vast majority of SDAs believe in and accept both. My guess would be that many more accept Paul than accept Ellen White. I have no doubt, though, that before Christ returns, and before Christ purifies His church, the vast majority of SDAs will not put her writings into practice, so in a very real sense they will not truly believe in her message. These will eventually be shaken out of the true church and join the fallen churches. I think there are about 16 million SDAs world-wide, and many more attend Sabbath School. This could be off a couple of million. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 30, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2010 People twist the truth of honest men also. Think of how often they twisted Christ's words and still do. The history fo the church is full of such twisting of Christ's words. Jesus was killed by men who twisted his words to His destruction. There are many honest men whose words are twisted. People twist honest men's words because they don't like to hear them. They are less likely to twist the words of evil men because there is no reason to. Especially when it comes to spiritual truths, people are more likely to agree with the words of evil men. Evil men often are popular because they tell people what they want to hear. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 the truth is that I've never really agreed with a lot of of her statements, and I'm doing so on Biblical grounds. Does it mean I'm a follower of Satan, or that Satan is using me? This is what you seem to imply. Could be..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Quote: No, I am not saying that all disagreements with Ellen White are due to Satan's work. However, I do believe that all SDAs who reject her are being deceived by Satan. Similarly, all people who reject the Bible and the gospel are deceived by Satan. Do you beleive that Satan has any reason to make the Seventh-day Adventist Church the object of his hatred and attacks? Now, since we are on that topic... can you please explain the mechanics of the "attacks of Satan", because it really escapes me. Every Christian sect will tell you the same old story, if you don't believe their version of Christianity, then you are being deceived by the Satan. To me, it's a version of membership by fear and guilt rather than openness of exploration of the truth and reason. The mechanics of "deception" are never explained... it's sort of, if you don't believe the version that we are telling you then you are deceived by the Satan. I don't really buy into such fear-mongering. God knows my reasons, and He will address it in due time. But, the last thing Christianity need today is: - You are deceived by Satan because you are not with us and don't believe what we do. - No, you are deceived by Satan, because you are not with us and don't believe what we do. It's really an argument of simpleminded and naive. We know who is of God by their love of another. There's plenty of E.G. White's followers who don't really know God, and likewise there're plenty of agnostics who demonstrate His love better but choose to be honest about the evidence that is or is not there. It's easy to play out the narrative of bickering guilt... and it's so easy to get caught up in it. I've really had just about enough of it, from both myself and the church. It turns me very bitter and for the worse... exactly the opposite what the result should be. I guess I should discuss it in other thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 30, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2010 Do you beleive that Satan has any reason to make the Seventh-day Adventist Church the object of his hatred and attacks? Originally Posted By: fccol Now, since we are on that topic... can you please explain the mechanics of the "attacks of Satan", because it really escapes me. I'll be glad to answer your question after you answer the question I asked you. The reason I asked you the above question was in order to get your understanding of whether you can think of any reason Satan might have to attack the Seventh-day Adventist church. By the SDA church, I mean both the institutions and the individual believers. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 30, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2010 Every Christian sect will tell you the same old story, if you don't believe their version of Christianity, then you are being deceived by the Satan. Any people who are sincerely seeking truth and wanting to do what is right will be the subject of Satan's attacks. It doesn't matter whether they are SDA or not. Originally Posted By: fccool To me, it's a version of membership by fear and guilt rather than openness of exploration of the truth and reason. I don't believe the church or any individuals in it want people to stay in the church out of fear and guilt. That would not be helpful to anyone. It's very important for Seventh-day Adventists to know the truth that Satan hates the SDA church and hates those who sincerely and honestly seek to do all of God's will. He hates and attacks this church because he can't attack Christ personally but he can attack the objects of Christ's love. He also attacks the church because he knows that if the people awaken spiritually and do what God wants them to do, Satan will lose the battle for this world. He knows he's already lost the war against Christ, but he's out to take as many people with him that he can. He's also interested in delaying the second coming of Christ and the time of his destruction as long as possible. There's a big difference between sincere and honest search for truth and rebellion against God, and against His prophets and apostles. Do you think anyone is in rebellion against God and against His prophets? What's the difference between this and the sincere search for the truth? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 30, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2010 The mechanics of "deception" are never explained... it's sort of, if you don't believe the version that we are telling you then you are deceived by the Satan. I don't really buy into such fear-mongering. God knows my reasons, and He will address it in due time. Explain what you mean by "the mechanics of deception." Satan is the same as he was at the time of Christ's first coming, except that his determination has intensified and his deceptions have become more subtle and cunning. Satan has had thousands of years more since the time of Christ to study the human mind and character, and he's putting to use all of that knowledge for his wicked purposes. What I'm talking about here on this thread is not "fear-mongering" but knowing the truth about Satan's warefare against Christ and His church. During WW II, was Churchill and Roosevelt "fear-mongering" when they talked to the people about the necessity of winning the battles against our enemies? What would have happened if the people had been persuaded that all such talk about the urgency of winning was "fear-mongering"? Do you think Hitler and the Japanese would want the British and the Americans and the Russians to think that there was no need to win the battles? Or would Hitler and the Japanese and the rest of the Axis powers be afraid that the Americans and the British and the Russians would fight the battles against the Axis with great determination and resolve? It is the same principle here: there's a war on and it's essential that we know our enemy and know that he's come down as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 30, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2010 But, the last thing Christianity need today is: - You are deceived by Satan because you are not with us and don't believe what we do. - No, you are deceived by Satan, because you are not with us and don't believe what we do. It's really an argument of simpleminded and naive. Do you believe the Bible teaches that Satan deceives people? Do you believe anyone is deceived? Originally Posted By: fccool We know who is of God by their love of another. Yes, of course. But the world, and including even many in the church, is confused about the nature of love. A lot people consider the truth of God's word to be "hate speech," and they consider lies to be evidence of love. The book of Revelation shows us that when Christ returns, almost the entire world will have accepted lies and rejected the truth of God's word and of His love. Originally Posted By: fccool There's plenty of E.G. White's followers who don't really know God, There are plenty of people who claim to follow Christ but who don't really know God, either. Isn't this true? Claiming to follow Christ or to believe in Ellen White is certainly no guarantee that one knows God or will be saved in Christ's kingdom. But is that a reason to believe it's not important to believe in either of them? Originally Posted By: fccool and likewise there're plenty of agnostics who demonstrate His love better but choose to be honest about the evidence that is or is not there. No one that I know of believes or claims that only Christians do good things or show love for others. But what you say here is only proof that many Christians won't be saved because they don't show love for others like they should. However, Christ taught the same thing, so it should not come to us as a surprise. Many Christians need to be truly converted and filled with the Spirit. But none of those things denies what I am talking about in this discussion-- that Satan hates the Seventh-day Adventist Church and that we need to understand his tactics and plans. Originally Posted By: fccool It's easy to play out the narrative of bickering guilt... and it's so easy to get caught up in it. That is not the objective or the theme of this discussion. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 30, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2010 Do you think Satan hates the Bible? Would he hate it in a way that he is not likely to hate, say, the plays of William Shakespeare or Playboy magazine? In other words, doesn't it stand to reason that Satan is more likely to hate what opposes his plans and his will than those things that help advance his plans or do nothing to oppose him? Now apply those principles to the SDA church and tell me if reason itself leads you to reject the counsels of Ellen White on this question when she says that Satan hates the SDA church. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:12-14 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 30, 2010 Author Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2010 That text is so true. How do we understand and see the truth? As that text says, it is really only by the Holy Spirit. We need the same Spirit to understand and apply the Bible that inspired the men who wrote it. Daniel 12: 10 comes into mind: Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. And Jesus' words show the real reason some people do not understand or believe. It has nothing to do with having great intelligence or worldly wisdom or even an education at all: John 7:17 If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. John 10:26-27 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. John 8:47 "Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." John 8:42-44 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. [43] Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. [44] You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted October 31, 2010 Members Share Posted October 31, 2010 I see the devil attacking the SDA church through the accepting and promotion of occultic-based activities...with the person involved being totally ignorant of the source of power. I see the devil attacking the SDA church by sowing discord about non-salvational issues. I see the devil attacking the SDA church by means of people trying to discredit the church's teachings. I see the devil attacking the SDA church through mockery of EGW. She was a fallible person, not God. She wrote according to the times, place, and culture of when and where she lived. I see the devil attacking the SDA church as it moves toward the Emergent Church idea. I see the devil attacking the SDA church through jealousy, conceit, dishonesty, coercion, and reliance on self. And those are just some of the things in general. I've directly witnessed other things happen, in various places, which make me shudder. I'm not an "alarmist," but I also am not one to stick my head in the sand and ignore what's happening. Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 I believe it takes true discernment to see these things. The kind that comes only from the Holy Spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 Rudy, Did you really mean to say; "I see the devil attacking the SDA church by means of people trying to discredit the church's teachings."? This sound just like what I would hear from someone in the Catholic church. What ever happened to the WORDS AND TEACHINGS OF JESUS CHRIST? Tell--if you can, what is one to do when it can be proven by the words of Jesus that the teachings of the church are wrong? Are they to shut up and put a lid on it? Just what is the responsibility of a true bond servant of Jesus, in this case? The same question could be asked about a citizen finding out something wrong in the government that can be proven--are they to just shut up and sit on it? What ever happen to 'whistle blowers'? Therefore I disagree with you on this--Satan likes it when people don't do what they are required to do by Jesus. If the church throwes you out when you blew the whistle and can prove their error by the words of Jesus, then their reward will be waiting for them--and it ain't a nice thing to experence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 And what IF you are wrong John and Richard? What then? Will the blood of those who believe you when you say that the whole bible is the inspired word of God, and IF it all isn't, going to be on you at the judgment day? Richard is right about discernment. But how does that work? How does one test the words of the bible to know if they are true or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 I see the devil attacking the SDA church through the accepting and promotion of occultic-based activities...with the person involved being totally ignorant of the source of power. I see the devil attacking the SDA church by sowing discord about non-salvational issues. I see the devil attacking the SDA church by means of people trying to discredit the church's teachings. I see the devil attacking the SDA church through mockery of EGW. She was a fallible person, not God. She wrote according to the times, place, and culture of when and where she lived. I see the devil attacking the SDA church as it moves toward the Emergent Church idea. I see the devil attacking the SDA church through jealousy, conceit, dishonesty, coercion, and reliance on self. And those are just some of the things in general. I've directly witnessed other things happen, in various places, which make me shudder. I'm not an "alarmist," but I also am not one to stick my head in the sand and ignore what's happening. Quote The 10 essence of Old Covenant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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